The situation in Ukraine...

[Foxi4]

Capitalist nations haven risen and fallen just like any other, and if managing to scrape by for a few hundred years is a "win," then I guess Egypt's caste system beats out both communism and capitalism.

Lots of progress going on in Egypt, how will I ever recover? Nevermind the fact that the introduction of capitalism led to the most prolific period of progress in human history, forget that.

Already debunked that, which is why I assumed you dropped the "consensual" part as a concession. Consent can only be given if both parties agree to something of their own free will, unburdened by the shackles of necessity.

Why? The opposite is true. You haven’t “debunked” anything, you just said that you disagree, and then added a bunch of unrelated tripe. Necessity does not magically override consent, nobody is forcing you to work for any particular employer, or any employer at all. You having biological needs that need satisfying is not an element of force introduced by capitalism, it’s a known quantity. How you satisfy those needs is up to you - for all I care you can live in the woods and gather berries all day. You might run afoul of the government, but capitalism certainly won’t put roadblocks in your way.

Right...you're just here to misdirect blame from the system itself back down onto working class individuals that keep it functioning. Very noble of you.

That’s correct. I’m not responsible for fuck-ups fucking up - that’s their deal. Not the system’s fault - do better. I don’t divide people by class either, by the way - seems like unnecessary division to me.

Sure, and if we're continuing to be frank: it works far more efficiently that way as opposed to the private sector spending other peoples' money. A vial of insulin in the US can cost up to $600. What is it in Poland? $5? Free? That's the difference between capitalism adding unnecessary layers of obfuscation or not. The private sector will literally weigh peoples' lives against the value of a necessary surgery and say "nah." The death panels Sarah Palin once ranted about are real, she just didn't realize she was talking about insurance companies.

Complete nonsense. The American healthcare system is anything but free market - your prices are elevated because your government royally fucked up insurance-related legislation, in an effort to make it “more accessible”, no less. Capitalism is not to blame when free market forces are being actively suppressed for feel goods. While we’re on the subject of cost, insulin in America costs $300 a vial, not sure where you got your 100% mark-up from. It “costs” the same in Poland - the number just happens to be spread across the rest of society. I don’t see why I should be burdened with your medical bills - getting healthcare coverage for yourself is your responsibility, I’m not your dad. Of course you prefer to pay a portion of income towards a safety net instead because you’re more risk averse - me, I prefer to keep the 9% of income I would’ve otherwise paid in Poland for care that I may never even take advantage of. I guarantee you that I have a better idea on how to spend that money.

"Some" overlap indeed. The Venn diagram of Putin's capitalist motivations and his imperialist motivations is a flat circle.

Only for simpletons not familiar with the Soviet Union.

We agree on that, but I'm obligated to point out that capitalism without very stringent regulations fails to deliver on this point. Wage theft is more rampant than it has ever been, particularly within the corporate realm.

Ah, another buzz word. I love when people use umbrella terms that can mean eight different things without specifying what they actually mean. My favourite kind of meat is animal, by the way.

If Putin ever admitted he was a diehard capitalist who relies on a global economy to maintain his standard of luxury, that would be the end of his reign. So of course that's not something he advertises to the Russian people at large. Xi Jingping and his oligarchs are in the exact same position, in too deep to drop the facade now.

Putin is a dictator, not a capitalist, by the very definition of what capitalism is. We can shake on crony capitalist if you’re looking for a middle point, but crony capitalism is the antithesis of actual capitalism.

Honestly, as I said earlier, we’ve had this conversation a zillion times, and we’re not going to see eye to eye on this. From my perspective you’re endorsing highway robbery for the greater good. I don’t believe in the greater good, not when it comes at the cost of the individual - the greatest good is the right to self-determine one’s own fate, which is by definition a double-edged sword and entails risk, in all facets of life. All of this is detracting from the conversation at hand, so I won’t be chatting about this side topic anymore - focus on Putin, Russia and Ukraine instead of pointless diversions and odes to a system long gone.

 

[UltraDolphinRevolution]

China has not changed its stance on the conflict.
It blames NATO for escalating but supports neither the war nor sanctions.

 

[Xzi]

Lots of progress going on in Egypt, how will I ever recover?

Sorry, I forgot to clarify that I was referring to ancient Egypt, not modern. That caste system outlasted virtually every capitalist empire that has been erected since, so I was only demonstrating that there are no clear parameters for an economic system "winning," least of all longevity.

How you satisfy those needs is up to you - for all I care you can live in the woods and gather berries all day. You might run afoul of the government, but capitalism certainly won’t put roadblocks in your way.

You're kidding, right? Capitalism itself is the biggest roadblock ever to people attempting to live off the land. The cops will eventually show up and tell you that the unmarked land belongs to someone else, and you're going to jail for stealing those berries. Hell, good luck even finding a free source of water that isn't contaminated.

That’s correct. I’m not responsible for fuck-ups fucking up - that’s their deal. Not the system’s fault - do better.

You're the one contending that there is no better economic system when it comes to providing for the working class. The onus is on you to prove that, but instead you seem more interested in reinforcing the validity of my arguments for me.

I don’t divide people by class either, by the way - seems like unnecessary division to me.

“The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal their bread.” - Anatole France

The American healthcare system is anything but free market

Correct, but only because we don't have a proper public option. It's a market entirely dominated by the interests of the private sector, and it's always in their interest to raise prices unnecessarily. They know people will pay no matter what because it's literally a matter of life and death. We have more than enough data points to confirm that privatization of healthcare, education, and/or law enforcement always ends in disaster, which is why all the smart European nations avoid it like the plague.

Only for simpletons not familiar with the Soviet Union.

The Soviet Union is dead, and at his age I doubt Putin can even remember a time before he was motivated by self-interest first and foremost.

Ah, another buzz word. I love when people use umbrella terms that can mean eight different things without specifying what they actually mean.

Damn...eight? Clearly you know about several forms of ongoing wage theft that even I wasn't aware existed. God forbid we patch those holes in the system if you're benefiting from them, though. /s

Putin is a dictator, not a capitalist, by the very definition of what capitalism is.

Capitalism is strictly an economic system, remember? Russia can and has existed as a capitalist dictatorship for a long time now, with Putin taking a cut of everything from both the private and public sectors. It's not the first time oligarchs have risen from a capitalist framework, and it sure as shit won't be the last.

We can shake on crony capitalist if you’re looking for a middle point, but crony capitalism is the antithesis of actual capitalism.

That's always the result of a capitalist free market with zero regulations in place. It's why literally no country on Earth embraces "anarcho-capitalism." It's self-contradictory and not even a good idea on paper.

 

[JoeBloggs777]

China has not changed its stance on the conflict.
It blames NATO for escalating but supports neither the war nor sanctions.

I wonder why China doesn't recognise DNR and LNR

 

[Xzi]

China has not changed its stance on the conflict.
It blames NATO for escalating but supports neither the war nor sanctions.

It was more of a tonal shift, though yes, technically they've been "neutral" the whole time.

In other news, it seems Putin is now scrambling to find a scapegoat for his own failings: Putin allegedly orders arrest of top military chief.

 

[UltraDolphinRevolution]

I wonder why China doesn't recognise DNR and LNR

Why would it?

 

[djpannda]

China has not changed its stance on the conflict.
It blames NATO for escalating but supports neither the war nor sanctions.

Lol sure China just told Russia to fuck off.. CCP does not think Putin is worth it any more

 

[djpannda]

Why would it?

Can’t wait for CCP script to change on you next week

 

[Coto]

Can’t wait for CCP script to change on you next week

Lol sure China just told Russia to fuck off.. CCP does not think Putin is worth it any more

If anything China doesn't want this to escalate further because they've been supporting WHO / United Nations from the start
and they're currently taking over Latin America through fake coups and socialist governments



So it'd be stupid for them to continue to gain more enemies worldwide now. So they'll simply clean Putin's face through these ONGs and call it a day.

Called it

 

[djpannda]

China has not changed its stance on the conflict.
It blames NATO for escalating but supports neither the war nor sanctions.

Lol maybe this video circulating in Chinese social media, would cause enough rattles

 

[SG854]

More then Half of the Worlds Population didn't support UN to condemn Russia



https://www.scmp.com/week-asia/poli...olation-more-half-world-population-didnt-back

 

[Foxi4]

Sorry, I forgot to clarify that I was referring to ancient Egypt, not modern. That caste system outlasted virtually every capitalist empire that has been erected since, so I was only demonstrating that there are no clear parameters for an economic system "winning," least of all longevity.

You're kidding, right? Capitalism itself is the biggest roadblock ever to people attempting to live off the land. The cops will eventually show up and tell you that the unmarked land belongs to someone else, and you're going to jail for stealing those berries. Hell, good luck even finding a free source of water that isn't contaminated.

You're the one contending that there is no better economic system when it comes to providing for the working class. The onus is on you to prove that, but instead you seem more interested in reinforcing the validity of my arguments for me.

“The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal their bread.” - Anatole France

Correct, but only because we don't have a proper public option. It's a market entirely dominated by the interests of the private sector, and it's always in their interest to raise prices unnecessarily. They know people will pay no matter what because it's literally a matter of life and death. We have more than enough data points to confirm that privatization of healthcare, education, and/or law enforcement always ends in disaster, which is why all the smart European nations avoid it like the plague.

The Soviet Union is dead, and at his age I doubt Putin can even remember a time before he was motivated by self-interest first and foremost.

Damn...eight? Clearly you know about several forms of ongoing wage theft that even I wasn't aware existed. God forbid we patch those holes in the system if you're benefiting from them, though. /s

Capitalism is strictly an economic system, remember? Russia can and has existed as a capitalist dictatorship for a long time now, with Putin taking a cut of everything from both the private and public sectors. It's not the first time oligarchs have risen from a capitalist framework, and it sure as shit won't be the last.

That's always the result of a capitalist free market with zero regulations in place. It's why literally no country on Earth embraces "anarcho-capitalism." It's self-contradictory and not even a good idea on paper.

Funny you say that, considering the fact that crony capitalism requires collusion between the business and the political spheres in order to exist, and as such cannot exist in a theoretical anarcho-capitalist society. What you said is impossible (just like a successful communist state - talk about an oxymoron ). It’s generally hard to collude with a government that doesn’t exist. Capitalism also uplifted the world from poverty - verifiably so. The 20th century was a period of the biggest poverty reduction in history, in no small part thanks to capitalism (I’d argue primarily). The Swiss would like to have a word in regards to privatisation of the public sector, as well as Israel, but we’ve been through that last time and you didn’t retain any of it. As for Putin, the reason why I specifically call him a dictator rather than a capitalist is because he is *not* a titan of industry - he makes his money via crooked policy, not engaging in commerce. This really isn’t complicated, bud. Boy, oh boy - you guys really don’t know much about what you’re talking about, but you sure like throwing around big terms you don’t quite understand. Neither here nor there, I have no interest in having the same conversation 8 times - you don’t seem to have done any research since last time.

 

[Soaplexi]

will gbatemps ever be free of people talking about ukraine lmao

 

[Xzi]

Funny you say that, considering the fact that crony capitalism requires collusion between the business and the political spheres in order to exist

It's not an accident though, it's just late-stage capitalism. More money, more land, more property = more power. So the private sector always ends up swallowing the smaller public sector in the transitory stages toward oligarchy, by design.

The Swiss would like to have a word in regards to privatisation of the public sector, as well as Israel, but we’ve been through that last time and you didn’t retain any of it.

So two countries coasting off of various foreign "donations" are your examples of privatized healthcare that works well for the middle and lower classes? I'd be shocked if you told me either even had a middle or lower class in the truest sense. Well...we know that Israel has booted out and then bombed much of its brown population, err I mean lower class.

As for Putin, the reason why I specifically call him a dictator rather than a capitalist is because he is *not* a titan of industry - he makes his money his via crooked policy, not engaging in commerce.

Oh please, don't play dumb. His crooked policy extends to every facet of commerce. Whether it's explicitly written into the law like it is in China or not, the Kremlin is guaranteed to take a cut of everything that corporations and even small businesses do in Russia. I'm fine with calling Putin a dictator first and a capitalist second, but there's no avoiding the fact that he is both.

 

[Foxi4]

It's not an accident though, it's just late-stage capitalism. More money, more land, more property = more power. So the private sector always ends up swallowing the smaller public sector in the transitory stages toward oligarchy, by design.


So two countries coasting off of various foreign "donations" are your examples of privatized healthcare that works well for the middle and lower classes? I'd be shocked if you told me either even had a middle or lower class in the truest sense. Well...we know that Israel has booted out and then bombed much of its brown population, err I mean lower class.


Oh please, don't play dumb. His crooked policy extends to every facet of commerce. Whether it's explicitly written into the law like it is in China or not, the Kremlin is guaranteed to take a cut of everything that corporations and even small businesses do in Russia. I'm fine with calling Putin a dictator first and a capitalist second, but there's no avoiding the fact that he is both.

”Late-stage capitalism” completes the list of buzzwords, I now know exactly where you got your economic know-how from lol. Maybe read a little bit of material from the other side of the aisle as well before you preach - y’know, for the sake of being informed and understanding the basics. I’m just going to ignore most of this since I addressed it already elsewhere and focus on Putin. The man doesn’t produce anything, he doesn’t sell anything, he’s heavily invested. The way he makes money is by now waning stock of, for instance, oil companies and then shaping policy, as well as spending public monies, on making sure that the value of oil is where he needs it. That’s not capitalism, that’s crony capitalism, enabled by authoritarian power. The order is important. He is not a “capitalist” in any sense of the word as he does not operate in the market - he sets the market, although admittedly less than China does in their corner of Commieland.

 

[Xzi]

”Late-stage capitalism” completes the list of buzzwords, I now know exactly where you got your economic know-how from lol.

I could use the phrase "terminal malignant capitalism" if you prefer.

Maybe read a little bit of material from the other side of the aisle as well before you preach - y’know, for the sake of being informed and understanding the basics.

Material from the other side of the aisle isn't informative on this topic though. It only teaches you how to be more cold and calculating, more accepting of human suffering as a "necessary byproduct" of the system. Easy to find the examples of that in your reasoning, certainly.

He is not a “capitalist” in any sense of the word as he does not operate in the market - he sets the market, although admittedly less than China does in their corner of Commieland.

To profit from the private sector is to acknowledge its legitimacy, and Putin profits from both foreign and domestic private enterprise. None of his most valuable assets/possessions were made in Russia, so it's an invalid argument that he operates exclusively within the market he controls.

 

[Foxi4]

I could use the phrase "terminal malignant capitalism" if you prefer.

Material from the other side of the aisle isn't informative on this topic though. It only teaches you how to be more cold and calculating, more accepting of human suffering as a "necessary byproduct" of the system. Easy to find the examples of that in your reasoning, certainly.

To profit from the private sector is to acknowledge its legitimacy, and Putin profits from both foreign and domestic private enterprise. None of his most valuable assets/possessions were made in Russia, so it's an invalid argument that he operates exclusively within the market he controls.

At least you admit you’re not well-versed in the subject - good first step. The market is global. 53% of Russia’s energy supply comes from natural gas, another 18% comes from oil and coal-based liquids. It accounts for 60% of Russia’s export, 39% of the federation’s budget comes directly from fossil fuel related revenues. Ukraine alone supplies 70% of the world’s neon and 40% of krypton - having a stooge in Ukraine hands Putin control over the world’s semiconductor supply as those gasses are prerequisites for chip manufacturing, among a myriad of other industrial applications. His “most valuable asset” is the ability to manipulate extraction markets based on his position, that’s his golden hen. Being “cold and calculating” allows me to see things the way they are, I’ll leave worrying about irrelevant factors to your camp.

 

[Xzi]

The market is global. 53% of Russia’s energy supply comes from natural gas, another 18% comes from oil and coal-based liquids. It accounts for 60% of Russia’s export, 39% of the federation’s budget comes directly from fossil fuel related revenues. Ukraine alone supplies 70% of the world’s neon and 40% of krypton - having a stooge in Ukraine hands Putin control over the world’s semiconductor supply as those gasses are prerequisites for chip manufacturing, among a myriad of other industrial applications. His “most valuable asset” is the ability to manipulate extraction markets based on his position, that’s his golden hen.

I already knew the general outline of all of this, but I appreciate the exact percentages I suppose. Reading between the lines, it sounds an awful lot like you agreeing with me that a good portion of Putin's motivations were in pursuit of capital gain, and I appreciate that as well.

Being “cold and calculating” allows me to see things the way they are, I’ll leave worrying about irrelevant factors to your camp.

Nah, it ultimately cripples your ability to see the forest for the trees. More plainly: right-wing economists always favor short-term gains for the few over long-term stability and a rising tide for all. The more money and resources you inject into the middle and lower classes, the stronger the economy becomes, because that money actually gets spent rather than sitting stagnant in an offshore bank account. Have the public sector take care of healthcare, education, and the justice system, and that money gets spread around even more. "Compassionate capitalism" still has its flaws, but it's far better than the "sociopath capitalism" trajectory that the US has been on at times lately.

 

[BitMasterPlus]

I withheld military aid from Ukraine and complimented Putin? Gonna need receipts for that claim, bud.


He's not, not with any sense of permanence. Ukraine has plenty of experience ousting Russian puppet governments.


We're talking about the same guy right? The one whose supporters do nothing but threaten civil war and assault McDonald's employees when their dollar menu food doesn't come out fast enough? Some epitome of "strength" that is.


Yes that was China's position in the beginning, and I'm sure it would've remained as such if the invasion had gone as smoothly as Putin had planned. It obviously hasn't, however, and so now China has stated definitively that they will not be lending any of their forces to the effort, and that their economic support for Russia also has its limits.


I mean yeah, that's what dictators do. At least until they end up committing suicide in a bunker. It doesn't change the fact that he's losing the war in Ukraine, and he's now also losing the information war at home.


I didn't say I was. Takes ten seconds of Googling to pull up numerous videos of the panic and chaos that's ensuing in Russian supermarkets right now. Especially over the sugar shortage, that stuff is definitely addictive.


What you have to understand by now is that at least half of Russia's power came from the image they were projecting to the rest of the world. That illusion has been dispelled now, and so they've lost no matter what happens in Ukraine from here on out.


How about you stop getting your ego wrapped up in what the world thinks about Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin? Either one would tie you up and rape your mother while staring you down before they'd lift a finger to improve any small aspect of society in their respective countries.

I bet this long winded responses makes you feel like you've got some big dick energy, huh?

 

[UnderJinx]

I bet this long winded responses makes you feel like you've got some big dick energy, huh?

Now that you like to talk about dicks why don't you migrate back to russia
then you can suck putin's little worm