• Friendly reminder: The politics section is a place where a lot of differing opinions are raised. You may not like what you read here but it is someone's opinion. As long as the debate is respectful you are free to debate freely. Also, the views and opinions expressed by forum members may not necessarily reflect those of GBAtemp. Messages that the staff consider offensive or inflammatory may be removed in line with existing forum terms and conditions.

[POLL] 2020 U.S. Presidential Election

For whom will/would you vote?


  • Total voters
    646
  • Poll closed .

Whole lotta love

Well-Known Member
Member
Joined
Jan 7, 2006
Messages
278
Trophies
1
XP
1,772
Country
United States
You're right. I shouldn't indulge you with further arguments since your position is akin to flat earthism. You're definitely well-read on the subject - so well-read that you were unaware of Chomsky's political alignment despite the fact that he states it plainly in one of his most famous works. He's a self-described anarcho-syndicalist, it's not a news flash. Anarcho-syndicalism is less a form of socialism and more a form of anarchism, but that's besides the point. The point, unless it flew over your head, is that it is impossible to achieve the lofty goals of socialism without establishing an aparathus of violence in order to enforce its tenants of goodie-goodie sharing, and once you've done that, you have an oppressive totalitarian state on your hands. Every single experiment of this kind has ended in exactly the same way, and repeating the same actions with the expectation of different results is the definition of insanity. I'm afraid that you have nothing to teach me that I don't already know - Chomsky's dream state is so ridiculous and untenable that it's no wonder he doesn't bring it up much anymore, focusing on criticising systems that do work instead. Let's not forget that we're talking about the man who praised Vietnam's implementation of socialism - the same implementation that gave birth to its proxy, the Viet Cong. Remember Viet Cong? As I said, I'm not particularly worried by your current beliefs. As people grow up, they gradually stop believing in certain things - the tooth fairy, the Easter bunny, santa and socialism, in that order. You'll get there eventually.

Where does he describe himself as an anarcho-syndicalist? From what I understand he transitioned from identifying as an anarcho-syndicalist to libertarian socialist, but like I said, the distinction is pretty minor as they are both forms of anti-state socialism that try to redistribute capitalist wealth to the working class. I'm not a very big fan of Chomsky though and haven't read all of his writing.

I have never argued that socialism or libertarian socialism does not require violence. Please don't strawman me.
All politics is violent. What happens when you shoplift from a store under capitalism? Representatives from the state come with guns to exert the state's will upon you and will enact violence upon you if you don't comply. By your definition, that makes the US and any other state with a police force "oppressive" and "totalitarian".
 
Last edited by Whole lotta love,
  • Like
Reactions: IncredulousP

Foxi4

Endless Trash
Global Moderator
Joined
Sep 13, 2009
Messages
30,824
Trophies
3
Location
Gaming Grotto
XP
29,819
Country
Poland
I have never argued that socialism or libertarian socialism does not require violence. Please don't strawman me.
All politics is violent.
...and that's where you lose me, and just about any reasonable reader. The core tenant of capitalisms is free, consensual and voluntary exchange of goods, services and labour. This is precisely why it is incompatible with colonialism, along with a myriad of other things it's consistently blamed for that it has nothing to do with. We can have a more reasonable discussion about crony capitalism, which most reasonable people oppose, but the moment you propose using force to put your lofty ideals into practice is the moment when you cross from a system that is liberal to a system that is totalitarian. Your shoplifting example doesn't work since in that scenario you are the aggressor - you have seized inventory that doesn't belong to you and the state has dispatched enforcers to protect the rights of the injured party - the owner of the property. Good. You're the one who initiated the hostilities, not the state.

Libertarian socialists and anarcho-syndicalists alike advocate for a peaceful society where the ploretariat chooses to work together voluntarily, both are focusing on individualism. The general idea is that the work one wants to do is rewarding in and out of itself, eliminating the need for the wage system, and by extension, "wage slavery". They hope to achieve those goals through unionisation. This philosophy is incompatible with the use of force, or a centralised aparathus of force, as that removes the element of voluntary consent.

Utopias are nice thought experiments, but it doesn't take much to make them crumble once you put them into practice. In the absence of incentives you need *someone* to do the jobs nobody else wants to do (or force them onto the "undesirables", which is how it usually works out), you need *someone* to enforce the rules and you need *some* kind of system to deal with dissent - if you don't have a structure like this, you create a power vacuum which is quickly filled by "a man with a plan" and their cohorts. We've seen this happen countless times now.

Capitalism solves this problem by offering a monetary incentive for labour, it's working and so far it's the best thing we've come up with. We can talk some more about libertarian socialism once we have replicators spitting out an infinite amount of resources all day Star Trek-style - until we get to that stage, it's a complete pipe dream that's not only untenable, it's counterproductive.

On the bright side I'm happy to hear that you're not an avid Chomsky reader - I had to suffer through his brain farts long enough. He's a brilliant and world-renowned linguist, but his political hot takes aren't always the best. He should probably stick to what he's good at - linguistic theory.

All that is an aside though, the conversation is getting pretty circular and we're straying further and further away from the 2020 election, which is what this thread is about.
 

wartutor

Well-Known Member
Member
Joined
Dec 25, 2012
Messages
759
Trophies
1
Age
45
XP
2,386
Country
United States
... slight manic laughter
She shouldn't become pregnant!
I put the condom on after we had sex.
this is essentially your logic right now. It takes about two weeks for signs of covid to show up.
There was MORE than plenty of time for him to catch covid. as he was not wearing a mask.
Meanwhile Biden hasn't shown signs. And he has consistently worn a mask


oh so... you just kinda... forgot my point... or I just didn't make it clear somehow so I'll just state it again.
Trump stated covid is nothing to worry about after getting a treatment neither of us could afford. Essentially pointing out that he really doesn't care for the American people. Meanwhile at least Joe has been trying to lead by example through wearing a mask, and recommending it. While Trump has been actively downplaying it.
My point being regarding the pandemic and getting back to a real normalcy, Biden or just any candidate from the other parties other than Trump would be better.
Your opinion just like its your opinion that masks prevent the spread of the virus. Many people that wear them still catch it and thats not even going into the whole "people dont change them every interaction they have so instead of preventing the spread they actually spread it more by carrying it around on their mask infecting everyone they come into contact with afterwards." Not to mention you touch your mask constantly having to adjust it. Expecially if you wear glasses making it easier for you to catch it. Buy yeah masks save lives...yeah believe what you want. And leave me to mine. Truth be told this virus is just that a fucking virus. Quit living in fear and just get over yourself with a .02% mortality rate your more likely to die in a house explosion in your sleep but whatever. (Btw that was an overexageration no need to try and call me on the explosion percent lol)
 
  • Like
Reactions: Glyptofane

Whole lotta love

Well-Known Member
Member
Joined
Jan 7, 2006
Messages
278
Trophies
1
XP
1,772
Country
United States
...and that's where you lose me, and just about any reasonable reader. The core tenant of capitalisms is free, consensual and voluntary exchange of goods, services and labour. This is precisely why it is incompatible with colonialism, along with a myriad of other things it's consistently blamed for that it has nothing to do with. We can have a more reasonable discussion about crony capitalism, which most reasonable people oppose, but the moment you propose using force to put your lofty ideals into practice is the moment when you cross from a system that is liberal to a system that is totalitarian. Your shoplifting example doesn't work since in that scenario you are the aggressor - you have seized inventory that doesn't belong to you and the state has dispatched enforcers to protect the rights of the injured party - the owner of the property. Good. You're the one who initiated the hostilities, not the state.

If imperialism and coercion are incompatible with capitalism, I can't think of any existing capitalist societies. All of the major powers considered by the vast majority of the world are out of the question.

Libertarian socialists and anarcho-syndicalists alike advocate for a peaceful society where the ploretariat chooses to work together voluntarily, both are focusing on individualism. The general idea is that the work one wants to do is rewarding in and out of itself, eliminating the need for the wage system, and by extension, "wage slavery". They hope to achieve those goals through unionisation. This philosophy is incompatible with the use of force, or a centralised aparathus of force, as that removes the element of voluntary consent.

Can you cite a source for any of your claims, but particularly this?
Malatesta wrote often about the need for militias, as did many other anarchist and left-communist thinkers of the 20th century. The CNT-FAI fought the Spanish fascists and then the Soviets. The YPG is currently fighting ISIS and the Turkish fascists. Pacifist anarchism is definitely a thing, but it has held very little influence on libertarian socialism and anarcho-syndicalism. I don't know of any anarcho-syndicalist or libertarian socialist organization that held or holds a pacifist line.

Capitalists almost always have to be forced to give up their property and resources.

Utopias are nice thought experiments, but it doesn't take much to make them crumble once you put them into practice. In the absence of incentives you need *someone* to do the jobs nobody else wants to do (or force them onto the "undesirables", which is how it usually works out), you need *someone* to enforce the rules and you need *some* kind of system to deal with dissent - if you don't have a structure like this, you create a power vacuum which is quickly filled by "a man with a plan" and their cohorts. We've seen this happen countless times now.

Capitalism solves this problem by offering a monetary incentive for labour, it's working and so far it's the best thing we've come up with. We can talk some more about libertarian socialism once we have replicators spitting out an infinite amount of resources all day Star Trek-style - until we get to that stage, it's a complete pipe dream that's not only untenable, it's counterproductive.
There are currently existing libertarian socialist societies right now and capitalism is still quite young. In my opinion, capitalism is a foolishly idealistic ideology which has never existed on any sort of scale without state authority.
We have managed to concoct a system that destroys 30-40% of the food it produces (in the US) while 10.5 million households are food insecure. Marx was right, the issue is artificial scarcity and it is not utopian to push for better redistribution of resources.

I guess you don't consider the US to be capitalist though because we steal resources from other nations and peoples.

Could you please answer my question about where Chomsky identifies as an AnSyn?
 
Last edited by Whole lotta love,
  • Like
Reactions: IncredulousP

Foxi4

Endless Trash
Global Moderator
Joined
Sep 13, 2009
Messages
30,824
Trophies
3
Location
Gaming Grotto
XP
29,819
Country
Poland
If imperialism and coercion are incompatible with capitalism, I can't think of any existing capitalist societies. All of the major powers considered by the vast majority of the world are out of the question.
Capitalism is strictly an economic system, it concerns voluntary trade between private individuals. Anything short of that is an abberation. Joe & Shmoe Co. are not going to war in Iraq to seize oil, they're just selling gizmos to people who want to buy them at Joe & Shmoe's Wacky Emporium Ltd. - I would be cautious in blaming capitalism for the failures of any given state. Conversely, socialism is *also* an economic system, but in contrast, it requires and consequently creates a state aparathus since, as we've discussed, its implementation necessitates the use of force, at least that's my take on how it usually turns out in practice. You are free to offer your goods and services without charge under capitalism, you are not free to pursue the profit motive under socialism - by definition, the former is inherently more liberal than the latter, in economic terms.
Can you cite a source for any of your claims, but particularly this? Malatesta wrote often about the need for militias, as did most other anarchist thinkers of the 20th century. The CNT-FAI fought the Spanish fascists and then the Soviets. The YPG is currently fighting ISIS and the Turkish fascists. Pacifist anarchism is definitely a thing, but it has held very little influence on libertarian socialism and anarcho-syndicalism. I don't know of any anarcho-syndicalist or libertarian socialist organization that held a pacifist line.
It's in the name, but I'll elaborate. Libertarian socialists and anarcho-syndicalists are anti-authoritarian and anti-state. If you have no state and no centralised body responsible for military action, going to war in an organised fashion becomes a bit of a pickle. You raise an interesting point regarding militias, I suppose that is a form of occupation that one might willingly choose, however I can also see the potential for those devolving into tribalist factions in the event of internal conflict. They're also probably more interested in external threats rather than keeping the peace internally - the "anarcho" bit isn't there for giggles, they've rejected the state, after all. Putting that aside for a moment, here's a short quote:
The role of anarcho-syndicalist networks and unions is not to try and recruit every worker, but to advocate and organise mass meetings of all workers involved in each struggle so that the workers involved retain control. Within these mass meetings anarcho-syndicalists argue for the principles of solidarity, direct action and self-organisation.

In this way anarcho-syndicalism is completely different to trade unionism, which seeks to represent our economic interests, and the so-called ‘workers parties’ which seek to represent our political interests. Instead, anarcho-syndicalism unites the political and the economic and opposes representation in favour of self-organisation.
https://libcom.org/library/what-anarcho-syndicalism

This pretty strictly adheres to Rocker's idea of what it should be.
The organisation of Anarcho-Syndicalism is based on the principles of Federalism, on free combination from below upward, putting the right of self-determination of every member above everything else and recognising only the organic agreement of all on the basis of like interests and common convictions.
https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/rudolf-rocker-anarchosyndicalism

Considering the fact that Rocker is one of the most prominent anarchist writers associated with the movement I assume he knows what he's talking about. Both quotes have something important in common - voluntary participation. While militias can combat external and internal threats, which is again a good point, they reject coercion as it is incompatible with their idea of unionisation, which is what I meant. They will happily fight against an external threat, like a foreign invasion, or an internal threat, like a fascist dictatorship, however in terms of day-to-day operation they seem to emphasise advocacy rather than use of force. I hope that clarification is satisfactory. I don't consider self-defense (against invasion or persecution) as something the state necessarily needs to be involved in, it's a basic right.
Capitalists almost always have to be forced to give up their property and resources.
Capitalists are willingly putting their resources up for sale - they don't want their own products, they made them in the first place with the intention of selling them to you. They want money, and you are welcome to voluntarily engage in commerce with them. That's a consensual exchange, and sort of the whole point of the system. You don't *have* to shop in store X, you can go to store Y, nobody's forcing you to do anything. By seizing property that does not belong to you, you've engaged in an activity that caused harm to the injured party, and under a capitalist economy that damage is measurable - it's equivalent to the cost of the item stolen. Under a system that rejects currency damages would be rather nebulous and hard to assess, but of course, this is a lesson we've learned nearly 5000 years ago as we minted the first coin in Mesopotamia and replaced trading commodities in favour of a uniform currency. It's funny how regressive some of these ideologies are when you say that out loud, it's a bit like rejecting the wheel.
There are currently existing libertarian socialist societies right now and capitalism is still quite young. In my opinion, capitalism is a foolishly idealistic ideology which has never existed on any sort of scale without state authority. We have managed to concoct a system that destroys 30-40% of the food it produces (in the US) while 10.5 million households are food insecure. Marx was right, the issue is artificial scarcity and it is not utopian to push for better redistribution of resources.
Existing in name only, but I'll bite. Marx was right to die in poverty and disease, that's about the only worthwhile thing he's done after years of mooching off of his wealthy donors. It's a shame that not all food we produce ends up in the hands of customers - some is discarded due to its low quality, much of it is destroyed once it reaches its Best Before or Use By dates. The inability to redistribute it to food banks is a failure of the state, not of capitalism - I assure you that a capitalist would most certainly dispose of it in a more pragmatic manner since food disposal is rather expensive, but in the absence of an incentive to do so there is no point in undercutting your own market. You raise an interesting point - why is food so expensive that it becomes unaffordable? Could it be that farm subsidies keep farmers who have no business planting certain crops afloat despite lack of demand, thus creating an unnecessary surplus of goods that must be stockpiled by the state or destroyed in an effort to fix prices? Y'know, something that the free market would self-regulate otherwise, forcing those farmers to re-spec and produce something else? Oh my, did socialism just artificially inflate food prices? Maybe we should stop doing that.
I guess you don't consider the US to be capitalist though because we steal resources from other nations and peoples.
Who's "we"? "We" don't go to war, the state goes to war, "we" go to work.
Could you please answer my question about where Chomsky identifies as an AnSyn?
I already have, so I disregarded the question. This conclusion can be gathered from a cursory reading of For Reasons of State, which I already quoted, but he's more direct in an interview with Peter Jay titled "The Relevance of Anarcho-syndicalism" where he calls himself a "fellow traveller [of anarcho-syndicalism]". I mean, that's what the interview's about, hard to interpret it in any other way.

https://chomsky.info/19760725/

In 2005 he released a book called On Anarchism, a collection of essays and interviews, which is basically him espousing anarcho-syndicalist ideals from front to back. In said book he calls libertarian socialism the "logical conclusion of liberalism" and anarchism an "inherently socialist philosophy" - it's pretty clean-cut.

https://books.google.com/books/about/On_Anarchism.html?id=sDomngEACAAJ

This has been a fun distraction, but as I've mentioned earlier, we should probably return to the subject at hand. If you have any further questions you can reach out to me privately, although I think I covered my point of view adequately - I don't have much to add.
 
Last edited by Foxi4,

notimp

Well-Known Member
Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2007
Messages
5,779
Trophies
1
XP
4,419
Country
Laos
Where does he describe himself as an anarcho-syndicalist? From what I understand he transitioned from identifying as an anarcho-syndicalist to libertarian socialist, but like I said, the distinction is pretty minor as they are both forms of anti-state socialism that try to redistribute capitalist wealth to the working class. I'm not a very big fan of Chomsky though and haven't read all of his writing.
Bwahahaha!

Here is a list of social democratic countries in the world (all of which redistribute wealth to some extend),
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_socialist_states

which for some reason doesnt include the following countries in europe.
b9c09146-0001-0004-0000-000001193101_w718_r1.5357142857142858_fpx29.31_fpy45.jpg


So more than two thirds of the countries in the world have social democrats in government.

Yet none of them would call themselves anarcho syndicalist. Or anything with anarchy in the title. ;)

But thank you for not asking. ;)
 
Last edited by notimp,

wartutor

Well-Known Member
Member
Joined
Dec 25, 2012
Messages
759
Trophies
1
Age
45
XP
2,386
Country
United States
dude this shit is funny as fuck. weeks in, the whole laptop story is unraveling in all directions, and Tucker Carlson "lost" the super important actually real information by "mailing it to himself". when asked what the content of the missing information is "he can't recall". please tell me people don't fall for this shit.
What artical did you read as i see nothing stating him "not recalling" and having a shipping company advise you that your envelope was opened and the contents stolen should make you question the other side more unless your one of those people that drink that kool aid ...wait...shit your tongue is dyed red damn it.
 
Last edited by wartutor,

Whole lotta love

Well-Known Member
Member
Joined
Jan 7, 2006
Messages
278
Trophies
1
XP
1,772
Country
United States
Capitalism is strictly an economic system, it concerns voluntary trade between private individuals. Anything short of that is an abberation. Joe & Shmoe Co. are not going to war in Iraq to seize oil, they're just selling gizmos to people who want to buy them at Joe & Shmoe's Wacky Emporium Ltd. - I would be cautious in blaming capitalism for the failures of any given state. Conversely, socialism is *also* an economic system, but in contrast, it requires and consequently creates a state aparathus since, as we've discussed, its implementation necessitates the use of force, at least that's my take on how it usually turns out in practice. You are free to offer your goods and services without charge under capitalism, you are not free to pursue the profit motive under socialism - by definition, the former is inherently more liberal than the latter, in economic terms.
Are there any examples of stateless capitalism existing on any sort of scale?

This is a very niche definition of capitalism that seems to contradict your previous arguments about Chinese state capitalism lifting people out of poverty. I'm having trouble understanding where the capitalism starts and ends in your definition. I don't think I've ever engaged in a transaction in the US without the influence of state authority.

If the US government develops a technology like internet, then private companies sell that technology is that capitalism? The funding came from coercing individuals to pay taxes with the threat of violence. Further, the state regulates many aspects of the transaction. To me it sounds like that isn't capitalism by your definition.

Maybe a black market drug deal? But what if the heroin was brought over on a military plane from Afghanistan? Then that can't be capitalism because imperialism is involved. If it's some homegrown stuff, the legal status and weight of law enforcement are defining large parts of the transaction, from where it's taking place to the quality of the drug.

It's in the name, but I'll elaborate. Libertarian socialists and anarcho-syndicalists are anti-authoritarian and anti-state. If you have no state and no centralised body responsible for military action, going to war in an organised fashion becomes a bit of a pickle. You raise an interesting point regarding militias, I suppose that is a form of occupation that one might willingly choose, however I can also see the potential for those devolving into tribalist factions in the event of internal conflict. They're also probably more interested in external threats rather than keeping the peace internally - the "anarcho" bit isn't there for giggles, they've rejected the state, after all. Putting that aside for a moment, here's a short quote:

https://libcom.org/library/what-anarcho-syndicalism

This pretty strictly adheres to Rocker's idea of what it should be.

https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/rudolf-rocker-anarchosyndicalism

Considering the fact that Rocker is one of the most prominent anarchist writers associated with the movement I assume he knows what he's talking about. Both quotes have something important in common - voluntary participation. While militias can combat external and internal threats, which is again a good point, they reject coercion as it is incompatible with their idea of unionisation, which is what I meant. They will happily fight against an external threat, like a foreign invasion, or an internal threat, like a fascist dictatorship, however in terms of day-to-day operation they seem to emphasise advocacy rather than use of force. I hope that clarification is satisfactory. I don't consider self-defense (against invasion or persecution) as something the state necessarily needs to be involved in, it's a basic right.
Yes, I am a libertarian socialist, I understand what voluntary association is. However,
you argued that anarcho-syndicalists reject violence outright, which Rocker disagrees with in this very quote. What do you think he means when he says "direct action"?
Again, to circle back to the begining of this, anarcho-syndicalism is about workers seizing the means of production themselves, without the Leninist vanguard party or state apparatus. For example, the Spanish revolution was by no means peaceful and is certainly socialism by any textbook definition of socialism.

Existing in name only, but I'll bite. Marx was right to die in poverty and disease, that's about the only worthwhile thing he's done after years of mooching off of his wealthy donors. It's a shame that not all food we produce ends up in the hands of customers - some is discarded due to its low quality, much of it is destroyed once it reaches its Best Before or Use By dates. The inability to redistribute it to food banks is a failure of the state, not of capitalism - I assure you that a capitalist would most certainly dispose of it in a more pragmatic manner since food disposal is rather expensive, but in the absence of an incentive to do so there is no point in undercutting your own market. You raise an interesting point - why is food so expensive that it becomes unaffordable? Could it be that farm subsidies keep farmers who have no business planting certain crops afloat despite lack of demand, thus creating an unnecessary surplus of goods that must be stockpiled by the state or destroyed in an effort to fix prices? Y'know, something that the free market would self-regulate otherwise, forcing those farmers to re-spec and produce something else? Oh my, did socialism just artificially inflate food prices? Maybe we should stop doing that.
Much of the food waste in the US is from stores that intentionally over stock shelves because it improves conversions in the stores. It often makes more money to waste food than to distribute it efficiently.

According to your definition, this whole arrangement isn't capitalism though, right? Since state authority is mandating sell by dates?
I already have, so I disregarded the question. This conclusion can be gathered from a cursory reading of For Reasons of State, which I already quoted, but he's more direct in an interview with Peter Jay titled "The Relevance of Anarcho-syndicalism" where he calls himself a "fellow traveller [of anarcho-syndicalism]". I mean, that's what the interview's about, hard to interpret it in any other way.

https://chomsky.info/19760725/

In 2005 he released a book called On Anarchism, a collection of essays and interviews, which is basically him espousing anarcho-syndicalist ideals from front to back. In said book he calls libertarian socialism the "logical conclusion of liberalism" and anarchism an "inherently socialist philosophy" - it's pretty clean-cut.

https://books.google.com/books/about/On_Anarchism.html?id=sDomngEACAAJ
thank you. I was not doubting you, I wanted to know where to look. I must have missed where you mentioned this previously.

Why are you insistent that he's not a socialist when you can pull quotes out of him saying that he is?
In this last quote he made the same exact argument I did in explaining that he is a socialist and you pushed back on it.

It feels like you're arguing for the sake of arguing and don't have a consistent position you're arguing from because several of your arguments have contradicted each other.
 
Last edited by Whole lotta love,
  • Like
Reactions: IncredulousP

Whole lotta love

Well-Known Member
Member
Joined
Jan 7, 2006
Messages
278
Trophies
1
XP
1,772
Country
United States
Bwahahaha!

Here is a list of social democratic countries in the world (all of which redistribute wealth to some extend),
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_socialist_states

which for some reason doesnt include the following countries in europe.
b9c09146-0001-0004-0000-000001193101_w718_r1.5357142857142858_fpx29.31_fpy45.jpg


So more than two thirds of the countries in the world have social democrats in government.

Yet none of them would call themselves anarcho syndicalist. Or anything with anarchy in the title. ;)

But thank you for not asking. ;)
I'm confused, what's your point?
 

Foxi4

Endless Trash
Global Moderator
Joined
Sep 13, 2009
Messages
30,824
Trophies
3
Location
Gaming Grotto
XP
29,819
Country
Poland
Are there any examples of stateless capitalism existing on any sort of scale?

This is a very niche definition of capitalism that seems to contradict your previous arguments about Chinese state capitalism lifting people out of poverty. I'm having trouble understanding where the capitalism starts and ends.

If the US government develops a technology like internet, then private companies sell that technology is that capitalism? The funding came from coercing individuals to pay taxes with the threat of violence. Further, the state regulates many aspects of the transaction. To me it sounds like that isn't capitalism by your definition.

Maybe a black market drug deal? But what if the heroin was brought over on a military plane from Afghanistan? Then that can't be capitalism because imperialism is involved.

Yes, I am a libertarian socialist, I understand what voluntary association is. However,
you argued that anarcho-syndicalists reject violence outright, which Rocker disagrees with in this very quote. What do you think he means when he says "direct action"?
Again, to circle back to the begining of this, anarcho-syndicalism is about workers seizing the means of production themselves, without the Leninist vanguard party or state apparatus. For example, the Spanish revolution was by no means peaceful and is certainly socialism by any textbook definition of socialism.

Capitalists are willingly putting their resources up for sale - they don't want their own products, they made them in the first place with the intention of selling them to you. They want money, and you are welcome to voluntarily engage in commerce with them. That's a consensual exchange, and sort of the whole point of the system. You don't *have* to shop in store X, you can go to store Y, nobody's forcing you to do anything. By seizing property that does not belong to you, you've engaged in an activity that caused harm to the injured party, and under a capitalist economy that damage is measurable - it's equivalent to the cost of the item stolen. Under a system that rejects currency damages would be rather nebulous and hard to assess, but of course, this is a lesson we've learned nearly 5000 years ago as we minted the first coin in Mesopotamia and replaced trading commodities in favour of a uniform currency. It's funny how regressive some of these ideologies are when you say that out loud, it's a bit like rejecting the wheel.

Much of the food waste in the US is from stores that intentionally over stock shelves because it improves conversions in the stores. It often makes more money to waste food than to distribute it efficiently.

thank you. I was not doubting you, I wanted to know where to look.

Why are you insistent that he's not a socialist when you can pull quotes out of him saying that he is?
In this last quote he made the same exact argument I did in explaining that he is a socialist and you pushed back on it.

It feels like you're arguing for the sake of arguing and don't have a consistent position you're arguing from.
I'm calling him what he calls himself because I like specificity. Calling him a socialist muddles the water - he is, and always has been, in strong opposition to any form of Leninist, Stalinist or Marxist form of governance, or in fact against any kind of governance at all in his early writings. Chomsky's heart is strictly on the side of anarchism with the only organising factor being unionisation. It's a bit like saying that he likes ice cream - I'm sure that he does, but anchovy is probably not his first choice. Not only that, in his imagined state the focus isn't so much on "redistribution of wealth" as it is on communal sharing - that's not what immediately springs to mind when you say "socialism", particularly not in the 20th century context, which is what we were discussing. It's an anarchist ice cream cone with a socialist sprinkle, not the other way around, and I think that distinction is important.

My definition of capitalism, or in fact the actual definition of capitalism, since that's what it is, is wholly consistent with the China argument. They continue to exist under a communist regime (political establishment), but have implemented capitalist principles into their market (economic model). There are no "capitalist countries" per se because capitalism is not a political system - there are countries that adhere to the economic principles of capitalism to a larger or smaller degree. Capitalism, in a nutshell, is an economic system based on private ownership wherein private enterprises operate for profit via voluntary exchange. The goal is capital accumulation, the establishment of competitive markets, the recognition of private property and property rights, a uniform price system and a wage system. Various countries have different takes and different implementations since the definition is, as you say, pretty broad.

On peaceful versus violent, I believe that I clarified that sufficiently. "Direct action" can only be directed against various flavours of boogeymen - once you run out of boogeymen to murder or re-educate, the aim is to assemble peacefully. Of course you never really run out of boogeymen, you just designate new ones since they're necessary for the system to operate, but that's practice, we're talking theory. That is what I gather from the writings on the subject, but then again, as a firm opponent of socialism of all flavours I also don't expect internal consistency from an inherently logically inconsistent belief system. You don't have to poke holes in it, it's a sieve in its original form already. On the bright side I'm also of the opinion that the state sucks at everything and anything it touches turns to dust - my flavour of libertarianism just happens to be on the opposite side of the political spectrum, so that's nice, we have one thing in common.

Now, Biden vs. Trump, if you will. I think we've gone on long enough.
 
Last edited by Foxi4,

Whole lotta love

Well-Known Member
Member
Joined
Jan 7, 2006
Messages
278
Trophies
1
XP
1,772
Country
United States
I'm calling him what he calls himself because I like specificity. Calling him a socialist muddles the water - he is, and always has been, in strong opposition to any form of Leninist, Stalinist or Marxist form of governance - Chomsky's heart is strictly on the side of anarchy with the only organising factor being unions. It's a bit like saying that he likes ice cream - I'm sure that he does, but anchiovie is probably not his first choice. Not only that, in his imagined state the focus isn't so much on "redistribution of wealth" as it is on communal sharing - that's not what immediately springs to mind when you say "socialism", particularly not in the 20th century context, which is what we were discussing.
Your insistence that libertarian socialism has very little to do with socialism is what is muddying the waters. The "socialism" bit isn't just an accident. It's deeply rooted in Marxism, as are most social anarchist and anti-state communist movements. Individualist anarchism, post-left anarchism, and insurrectionary anarchism have a lot less influence from Marx, but I know Chomsky doesn't think highly of those tendencies.

Social Anarchists in the early 20th century often cited Marx and argued that the goal of communism (a stateless and classless society) could only be realized by prefiguring those societal relations as directly as possible under current conditions. The ABCs of Anarchism does this well, as does Murray Bookchin, who is largely responsible for popularizing the term "libertarian socialism".
https://social-ecology.org/wp/2016/09/bookchin-marx-r-kotlas/
You can't have worker control of the means of production without Marx.

My definition of capitalism, or in fact the actual definition of capitalism, since that's what it is, is wholly consistent with the China argument. They continue to exist under a communist regime (political establishment), but have implemented capitalist principles into their market (economic model). There are no "capitalist countries" per se because capitalism is not a political system - there are countries that adhere to the economic principles of capitalism to a larger or smaller degree. Capitalism, in a nutshell, is an economic system based on private ownership wherein private enterprises operate for profit via voluntary exchange. The goal is capital accumulation by all participants, the establishment of competitive markets, the recognition of private property and property rights, a uniform price system and a wage system. Various countries have different takes sbd different implementations since the definition is, as you say, pretty broad.

This sounds like a difference without a distinction. I think when most people say "America is a capitalist country" they mean that the United States adheres to capitalist principals.

On peaceful versus violent, I believe that I clarified that sufficiently.
Well I'm still very much confused because you have yet to acknowledge that libertarian socialism is a redistributive ideology that does not prohibit direct action as a means of class war after saying it's non-violent.

To me, it sounds like you think libertarian socialism is much more similar to right libertarianism than it is.

"Direct action" can only be directed against various flavours of boogeymen - once you run out of boogeymen to murder or re-educate, the aim is to assemble peacefully. That is what I gather from the writings on the subject, but then again, as a firm opponent of socialism of all flavours I also don't expect internal consistency from an inherently logically inconsistent belief system. You don't have to poke holes in it, it's a sieve in its original form already. On the bright side I'm also of the opinion that the state sucks at everything and anything it touches turns to dust - my flavour of libertarianism just happens to be on the opposite side of the political spectrum, so that's nice, we have one thing in common.
How do you feel about direct action against socialists and socialist states?

Now, Biden vs. Trump, if you will. I think we've gone on long enough.

I'm not very interested in Biden vs Trump. They're both despicable and I disagree with their platforms almost wholesale, which is why I'm not voting for them.
 
Last edited by Whole lotta love,

Foxi4

Endless Trash
Global Moderator
Joined
Sep 13, 2009
Messages
30,824
Trophies
3
Location
Gaming Grotto
XP
29,819
Country
Poland
I'm not very interested in Biden vs Trump. They're both despicable and I disagree with their platforms almost wholesale, which is why I'm not voting for them.
Sounds like you ended up in the wrong thread then! :lol: Unless you happened to be here for Sanders back when there were "these 12 ways he can still win the nomination", although I somehow doubt that. We'll have to save our conversation for another time, I have a nasty habit of getting into these long tirades and derailing political threads - a habit that I'm trying to break. :ha:
 

Whole lotta love

Well-Known Member
Member
Joined
Jan 7, 2006
Messages
278
Trophies
1
XP
1,772
Country
United States
Sounds like you ended up in the wrong thread then! :lol: Unless you happened to be here for Sanders back when there were "these 12 ways he can still win the nomination", although I somehow doubt that. We'll have to save our conversation for another time, I have a nasty habit of getting into these long tirades and derailing political threads - a habit that I'm trying to break. :ha:

The thread is about who we're voting for. I voted for Howie Hawkins who is running on a socialist platform. I'm throwing my vote away no matter how I swing it so might as well fill in the bubble for the guy who says he wants to defund the military and police :D

Lol I remember those articles from HA Goodman. I think he's grifting for Trump supporters now.
Don't think I'd consider Bernie a socialist though. Maybe in his heart of hearts.



Your conversations might not derail so much if you engaged in discussion in better faith.
 
Last edited by Whole lotta love,
  • Like
Reactions: IncredulousP

notimp

Well-Known Member
Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2007
Messages
5,779
Trophies
1
XP
4,419
Country
Laos
I'm confused, what's your point?
You dont know what you are talking about.

You: "Anarcho syndicalism is the same as libertarian socialism, because both are somehow about distribution of wealth."
Me: Wtf?
You: I dont know what you mean.
Me: You dont know what you are talking about.
 
Last edited by notimp,

MetoMeto

Well-Known Member
Member
Joined
Dec 28, 2018
Messages
1,486
Trophies
0
Location
SR-388
XP
2,264
Country
Zimbabwe
Preferably, please Americans, vote for someone who will not enforce their will on tho the entire
world in an attempt to exploit and Americanize it...or bomb it if it's possible.

Other than that...whoever is elected is elected.

But seriously, Americans should think about other nations when electing, not just their own home, since
it has influence globally not just in US.
But no pressure!
:grog:
 
Last edited by MetoMeto,

FAST6191

Techromancer
Editorial Team
Joined
Nov 21, 2005
Messages
36,798
Trophies
3
XP
28,311
Country
United Kingdom
Preferably, please Americans, vote for someone who will not enforce their will on tho the entire
world in an attempt to exploit and Americanize it...or bomb it if it's possible

Is there someone that won't do that? Indeed has there been anyone in living memory that won't do that?

Exploit your geography, exploit your population and their industry, and technologies that stem from it, in an attempt to gain more wealth and more power.

It has been this way for... all of recorded human history.

Going full closed doors self sufficient isolationist is probably a reason to not let someone into power. Doing that, especially if you are the US, then means the others that won't be doing that will come knocking on your door in a few decades when they have consolidated power elsewhere and you have not kept up.

If someone wants to tell them to get lost with the awful IP laws (I mean who really thinks software patents are a good idea, and their approach to copyright... ew), sub par food standards, awful medical setups and the rest then I am OK with that but that is a different matter.
 
  • Like
Reactions: MetoMeto

Site & Scene News

Popular threads in this forum

General chit-chat
Help Users
  • BakerMan @ BakerMan:
    Have you ever been beaten by a wet spaghetti noodle by your girlfriend because she has a twin sister, and you got confused and fucked her dad?
  • Psionic Roshambo @ Psionic Roshambo:
    I had a girlfriend who had a twin sister and they would mess with me constantly.... Until one chipped a tooth then finally I could tell them apart.... Lol
  • Psionic Roshambo @ Psionic Roshambo:
    They would have the same hair style the same clothes everything... Really messed with my head lol
  • Psionic Roshambo @ Psionic Roshambo:
    @The Real Jdbye, I could see AMD trying to pull off the CPU GPU tandem thing, would be a way to maybe close the gap a bit with Nvidia. Plus it would kinda put Nvidia at a future disadvantage since Nvidia can't make X86/64 CPUs? Intel and AMD licensing issues... I wonder how much that has held back innovation.
  • The Real Jdbye @ The Real Jdbye:
    i don't think nvidia wants to get in the x64 cpu market anyways
  • The Real Jdbye @ The Real Jdbye:
    you've seen how much intel is struggling getting into the gpu market
  • The Real Jdbye @ The Real Jdbye:
    and nvidia is already doing ARM
  • The Real Jdbye @ The Real Jdbye:
    i don't think they want to take more focus away from their gpus
  • Psionic Roshambo @ Psionic Roshambo:
    Yeah I think Nvidia s future lays in AI GPU acceleration stuff if they can get that going it's going to be super interesting in the long term
  • Psionic Roshambo @ Psionic Roshambo:
    AI assisted game creation might become a thing
  • Psionic Roshambo @ Psionic Roshambo:
    At least that's something I think would be pretty cool.
  • Psionic Roshambo @ Psionic Roshambo:
    Don some VR glasses and gloves and talk to the computer and paint entire worlds
  • Psionic Roshambo @ Psionic Roshambo:
    "OK Cortana I want that mountain a little taller and more snow on top, and I would like some random ancient pine forest around the bottom"
  • Psionic Roshambo @ Psionic Roshambo:
    "Now we need a spring fed river flowing down the north side and add some wild life appropriate for the biome"
  • Psionic Roshambo @ Psionic Roshambo:
    Many TBs of assets and the programming of something like that is going to be tough but I think it's something we might see in 20 years maybe sooner
  • The Real Jdbye @ The Real Jdbye:
    @Psionic Roshambo AI assisted game creation is kinda already here, there was recently that AI that can turn any 2D image into a fully modeled 3D object, it's not perfect, but it's a starting point, beats starting from zero
    +1
  • The Real Jdbye @ The Real Jdbye:
    before that there was one to generate a fully modeled scene from a 2D image
    +1
  • The Real Jdbye @ The Real Jdbye:
    but most recently, there was one that actually generates a working unity scene with terrain and textures already set up that you can import right into unity, that's a huge time saver right there
    +1
  • The Real Jdbye @ The Real Jdbye:
    and using LLMs to generate NPC dialogue and even dynamically generated quests is something i'm sure is already happening
    +1
  • The Real Jdbye @ The Real Jdbye:
    will just take some time for games made using those things to be completed and released
    +1
  • K3Nv2 @ K3Nv2:
    @The Real Jdbye, it's bed bath and beyond you nitwit
  • The Real Jdbye @ The Real Jdbye:
    @K3Nv2 you said instructions with pictures, same difference
    The Real Jdbye @ The Real Jdbye: @K3Nv2 you said instructions with pictures, same difference