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Is hydroxycloroquine really efficient at treating covid-19?

MFDC12

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The comment @Viri just posted really shows that the WHO doesn't get all its information right either.

WHO
"Preliminary investigations conducted by the Chinese authorities have found no clear evidence of human-to-human transmission of the novel coronavirus"

We know that is 100% wrong now.

I put a lot of thought on stuff like this earlier and decided that I think it's weird, specifically in a pandemic of a brand new virus, where our knowledge of the virus grows by the day, that people hold on to statements from months ago to criticize people/organizations (especially one that was like less than a month after it was first identified) - it's a brand new identified virus, of course everything is going to constantly change and therefore advice and stuff are going to change. It's like how Fauci didn't recommend masks at first and then he started to once evidence came out, and people hold him to that original quote and criticize him for it. So, I mean, I think it's obvious it would be spread person-person, but I'm not holding it against the WHO with the limited knowledge we had at the time.

Edit: I just want to say this wasn't a shot at you or Viri at all, because I get frustrated like you at the the misinformation + conflicting info of covid, but it's just something we need to keep in mind (re: it being new and new information comes daily)
 
Last edited by MFDC12,

Seliph

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SG854

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So again I direct towards the article I cited. Please read it, I know you're literate so please take 5 minutes of your time and read it.

I'm not sure why you're so fixated on zinc either as if using zinc (which yes, all of the tests do use zinc) changes the fact that your "doctors" are simply lying to your face.

So if by "they" you mean the people who have conducted these experiments, yes "they" use zinc. In what I've found, doses vary depending on the test, though most experiments yield the same result: nothing.

Please read the article. It is fully sourced and literally debunks everything you've said.
Why do they do this to us?
Why lie to us?

I don't like being lied to.
Nothing pisses me off more.

Whats wrong with these people.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

Oh, which one are you talking about? In this one: https://www.factcheck.org/2020/07/i...ly-touts-hydroxychloroquine-as-covid-19-cure/, it mentions zinc only twice on the article but it's not a study, it's just fact-checking the effectiveness of hydroxychloroquine as a cure.
I don't know anymore. So much disinformation people saying this and that. Its annoying to go scramble for information.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

Oh, which one are you talking about? In this one: https://www.factcheck.org/2020/07/i...ly-touts-hydroxychloroquine-as-covid-19-cure/, it mentions zinc only twice on the article but it's not a study, it's just fact-checking the effectiveness of hydroxychloroquine as a cure.
I'm pretty sure a conservative outlet will claim that fact check is wrong then lists reasons why, then another rebuttle from the other side, then another. It hurts my head with all this nonsense scrambling to get the right information.
 

Seliph

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Why do they do this to us?
Why lie to us?

I don't like being lied to.
Nothing pisses me off more.

Whats wrong with these people.
Right? It's very frustrating to be lied to. It's very hard to find the correct information and I'm sorry that I was a bit rude to you before. Just make sure to always be skeptical of what you read, and often if something sounds too good to be true, it probably is.

I wish everything was straightforward and no one ever lied, but sadly that often isn't the case.
 
Last edited by Seliph,

SG854

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I am doctor and the cure is false, cloroquine isnt true, the study that said that was with 10 patiens and they was followed for 14 Days. There was not diference beweent in not use it and use it abrir the time that Took to recovery of the disease. In other words it dosent help to covid sickness also there are alot of adverse efects secondary to use it.

please belive only the words that said your medical carer. There are alot of miss information. I had to atent a child who drank acid because some one told that it can erradicate the virus
Thank You Doctor. I did not see your post till now.

Whats your opinion on all this false information? Why do you think they do it? What is their end goal?

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

Right? It's very frustrating to be lied to. It's very hard to find the correct information and I'm sorry that I was a bit rude to you before. Just make sure to always be skeptical of what you read, and often if something sounds too good to be true, it probably is.

I wish everything was straightforward and no one ever lied, but sadly that often isn't the case.
I just want the right information, thats all.

But people that have debated me on this site know that I'm willing to accept information that proves whatever I find to be wrong. That's the point of debates right? To learn, to bring something you find and let someone else bring what they find. And I know its good to be skeptical, anything I post here is not final that I will always believe, I can change my mind.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

@Seliph its fine that you were rude. I do the same thing too even though I know I shouldn't. Sometimes I can be calm like I should, sometimes though I dont follow what I preach.
 
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morvoran

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Well, of course, the Lame stream media, google, Yahoo, Twitter, and the other big tech companies are going to censor any evidence or claims that hydroxychloroquine works as it makes "Orange Man Bad" look better than he already does to the public. They also don't want to insult and upset their "Dear Leader" President Xi by allowing anybody to go against his agenda on their platforms. They might end up being cancelled by their own peers.
 

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Maybe there is something there? I dunno.

39 peer reviews versus how many peer reviewed against it?

Look for yourself. A lot more positive then negative.

Example of one negative:
Late stage RCT of 667 hospitalized patients with up to 14 days of symptoms at enrollment and receiving up to 4 liters per minute supplemental oxygen, not finding a significant effect after 15 days.

It has already been established it needs to be done early, not late. Once the virus has setup shop on your body for those unlucky enough to be overwhelmed by it. It is hard to overcome. I am no scientist or doctor but it would seem based on what I have seen so far if taken early enough it disrupts the virus enough that it can't get a hold.

And the latest seems to be a 3 combo deal, the HCQ + some antibiotic and Zinc I believe.
 

lordofcombo

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I dont know about USA where the virus is thriving,in Africa death toll have been reduced drastically,apparently the virus is weakened.
 

SG854

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Look for yourself. A lot more positive then negative.

Example of one negative:
Late stage RCT of 667 hospitalized patients with up to 14 days of symptoms at enrollment and receiving up to 4 liters per minute supplemental oxygen, not finding a significant effect after 15 days.

It has already been established it needs to be done early, not late. Once the virus has setup shop on your body for those unlucky enough to be overwhelmed by it. It is hard to overcome. I am no scientist or doctor but it would seem based on what I have seen so far if taken early enough it disrupts the virus enough that it can't get a hold.

And the latest seems to be a 3 combo deal, the HCQ + some antibiotic and Zinc I believe.
It's just a question I'm throwing up in the air.

If this is true then what the doctors said in my OP were telling the truth. I know fact check has gotten information wrong in the past. And the post @Viri posted shows the WHO doesn't always get its information right.

This is the exact thing I was telling @Seliph about. One side gives information, then the others side gives debunking information, then the other, then other and it keeps going. Its frustrating, because there is always something you miss, that you sometimes have to search deep for. There's always something you miss.

Someone here claiming to be a doctor says that it doesn't work. But so did the doctors in the video I linked, they claimed that they were doctors. So anyone can claim to be a doctor. Be they also gave the advice to listen to you primary doctors when you see them in person. So thats best advice and better information then just listening to someone on the internet claiming to be a doctor. Because it's a physical person you are seeing face to face.

Getting to the bottom of this is going to be frustrating.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

But then the people in the video I linked also claimed to be doctors and people physically saw them and were treated by them. So we should be skeptical even of our primary doctors too. Its just craziness that hurts my head.
 
Last edited by SG854,

notimp

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So now people in here trust random sampling website stating summarized results, over the FDA.

HCQ No Longer Approved Even a Little for COVID-19 — Study after study showed no benefit, and now the FDA has had enough

The FDA rescinded its emergency use authorization (EUA) of hydroxychloroquine (HCQ) to treat COVID-19 patients, citing concerns about efficacy and risks associated with its use, and saying the drug no longer meets the criteria for an EUA, the agency said on Monday.

"The agency determined that the legal criteria for issuing an EUA are no longer met," according to an FDA statement. Both hydroxychloroquine and a related antimalarial drug, chloroquine (CQ), are "unlikely to be effective at treating COVID-19" for uses described in the EUA, the statement continued.

Moreover, the FDA now says the benefits of the drug "no longer outweigh the potential risks," citing the serious cardiac adverse events associated with the drug.
https://www.medpagetoday.com/infectiousdisease/covid19/87066

Don't you think, that you can go a little too far in glorifying 'the gospel of Trump'?

edit: Same story in europe.
https://www.reuters.com/article/hea...ial-paused-as-safety-fears-grow-idUSKBN2340A6

Also - there is this issue:
Chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine should continue to be used in chronic conditions (meaning f.e. Lupus patients). In order to prevent unnecessary strain on supply chains, patients should only receive their usual supply of medicines. Healthcare professionals should not write prescriptions that cover more than the usual duration.
https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/news/c...used-clinical-trials-emergency-use-programmes

Summary:
In the search for COVID-19 treatments, several types of medicines are investigated and tested in clinical trials all over the world – among them the two medicines chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine, which are currently only authorised for malaria and certain autoimmune diseases. However, the efficacy of these medicines in COVID-19 treatment has not yet been shown in any studies.

For this reason, the EMA has emphasised in an announcement to only use these products in clinical trials or national emergency use programmes for the treatment of COVID-19 patients whose condition is critical.

Chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine are vital medicines for patients with autoimmune conditions such as lupus, which is a chronic condition. It is important these patients can still get their medicines and that no shortages occur due to stockpiling or because the medicines are prescribed off-label, i.e. for other diseases than those they are approved for.

This was the very reason that the Danish Medicines Agencyintroduced restrictions on prescribing of all medicines containing hydroxychloroquine on 22 March.

Large clinical trials to get enough evidence
Hundreds of trials are being conducted worldwide to obtain the robust data needed to document if medicines already authorised for other diseases could have an effect on COVID-19 and to establish their safety. A list of studies conducted worldwide is updated on the Danish Medicines Agency’s COVID-19 theme page.
Independant aggregator with 100s of clinical studies: edit: https://laegemiddelstyrelsen.dk/da/...~/media/5B83D25935DF43A38FF823E24604AC36.ashx

Conclusion,
- On that website you dont find "hundreds of clinical trials" you find 65.Those can be picked with a bias to show those showing positive results. In fact, even the website title makes it clear, that the whole purpose of the website is, to promote a 'they are showing positive results!!111!!' narrative.

- The website at the top shows an image of overall infections (log scale), and cycles in a part "clinical trials with HCQ since here". This means that whoever made the website has an agenda and is an idiot, because if you only do clinical trials with HCQ up to that point, it has no impact on overall infection numbers statistically. (Far to few treatment cases).

- HCQ is one of 100s of drugs that are undergoing clinical trials at the moment. Why that website would only focus in on 65 studies on that specific drug, certainly has political reasons.

- The website uses a color scheme of 'green for 'positive' (statistically relevant positive?) and grey for negative and inconclusive. Apart from possible interpretation bias, and possible selection bias, thjs is another strange way of illustrating a point you alread made in the title of the website you registered a domain for.

- The website shows no author or person responsible and doesnt state which method was used to gather those specific 65 studies (some of which are dated from before Covid-19 existed).

Meaning, this website is propaganda.

edit: Looked a little more into what the graph at the top of the website means:

Here is the quality of argument of Moroccos lead Covid scientist (proposedly a follower of a french scientist Didier Raoult), who pronounced a 100% cure rate after treatment with HCQ.
https://www.moroccoworldnews.com/20...hloroquine-success-reveals-european-failures/

Almost all states listed there have one thing in common: Low testing capability, and politically more on the 'illiberal' end.

Morocco is competitive (600 tests per million).
Greece is competitive (500 tests per million).
Turkey has 400 tests per million
Ukraine has 280 tests per million
India has 260 tests per million
Cuba has 260 tests per million
Malaysia has 213 tests per million.
Indonesia has 47 tests per million.

src: https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus/country/greece?country=MYS~MAR~TUR~IND~IDN~UKR~CUB

US has 2400 daily tests per million.

The issue with a low daily test rate is, that you would allocate many of those tests to medical personal, which should be protected by PPE.

Also - again, people in Morocco and Greece (lets focus on them - because they are at the top of the 'capabilities' list) would only have been treated, when they reached hospitals. In which case, patients testing positive for Covid-19 would have been isolated anyhow. So how that treatment in those countries should have lead to a lower overall infection rate is questionable.

Impact of overall deathrate per million is hard to gage as well, as this is strongly correlated with overall number of infections.

But the graph itself seems to be less idiotic as first thought, because HCQ was a standard treatment in some of those countries (some, because I didn't check all of them.. :) ).

edit:
One of the world's largest studies - the Recovery trial run by Oxford University - has involved 11,000 patients with coronavirus in hospitals across the UK and included testing hydroxychloroquine's effectiveness against the disease, along with other potential treatments.

It concluded that "there is no beneficial effect of hydroxychloroquine in patients hospitalised with Covid-19" and the drug has now been pulled from the trial.

There's been some hope that hydroxychloroquine could be effective if used early on when a person gets the virus, before there's a need for them to be hospitalised.

However, there's no clear evidence on this and the jury is very much out as to its effectiveness in the early stages of infection.

There are in fact overall more than 200 trials currently underway around the world on its impact either as a prophylactic or treatment for Covid-19.
https://www.bbc.com/news/51980731

Back at the start of the pandemic, laboratory studies had suggested the malaria drug could affect the virus. Small-scale studies in China and France then hinted it might help patients.

There was a huge amount of hope, as the medicine is cheap and has been safely used to treat malaria and conditions such as lupus and arthritis.

However, the evidence supporting its use for coronavirus has been weak.

'Not a treatment for Covid'
That is why the data from the Recovery trial is crucial. It is the first to test the drug in large numbers of people in a thorough clinical trial.

More than 11,000 patients with Covid-19 are taking part, with 1,542 patients given hydroxychloroquine.

Due to mounting controversy about the drug, the UK's drugs regulator last night asked the Oxford researchers to review their data.

The results showed 25.7% of people taking hydroxychloroquine had died after 28 days. This compared with 23.5% who were given standard hospital treatment.

"This is not a treatment for Covid," said Prof Martin Landray, part of the Recovery trial. The trial immediately stopped using the drug.

The findings come in the wake of deep concern in academic publishing that led to an article being retracted in the Lancet - one of the world's most prestigious medical journals.

It had published a study involving nearly 15,000 patients, from hundreds of hospitals, given hydroxycholoroquine or the similar drug chloroquine.

It concluded the drug was not beneficial and increased the risk of irregular heart rhythms and death. That publication led to the WHO suspending its trials of the anti-malaria drug.

The data had been collected from hospitals by the little-known healthcare firm Surgisphere.
https://www.bbc.com/news/health-52937153
 
Last edited by notimp,

notimp

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Impact of overall deathrate per million is hard to gage (looking only at absolute death numbers per million) as well, as this is strongly correlated with overall number of infections.

Looked into that aspect:

Lets compare overall infection numbers per million of said countries to Germany or France:

Germany: 2505
France: 3124

Turkey: 2780
Ukraine: 1585
India: 1133
Morocco: 594
Greece: 390
Indonesia: 380
Malaysia: 288
Cuba: 232

(calculated using the case numbers on https://ncov2019.live/ and googled population numbers for the respective countries)

So that is the main statistical lie in the graph on c19study.com/

Deathrates on most of those countries are five times lower (in absolute numbers) than in france, because (partly because of testing rate), case rate in those countries also is more than five times lower (in absolute numbers).

If you dont factor that out and are telling people on social media, the difference is mainly because of HCQ - you are pushing propaganda.

So now our problem becomes "how to explain that Turkey, Ukraine, and India have strangely low deathrates, compared to most western countries'. ;)

And the answer to that doesnt necessarily have to be - HCQ. ;)

edit: Deathrate mismatch in Greece (18.4 per million) vs France (451 per million) is still puzzling though.. ;)
Confirmed infections per million are 390 vs 3124, so less than a 10x difference.

Not sure this is attributable to HCQ though. ;)

Again, as hospitals reach peak capacity, deathrates increase manyfold.

So looking at population numbers when gaging the effectiveness of HCQ is problematic.. ;)
 
Last edited by notimp,

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@notimp

Whoa very thorough and informative.

However, I disagree with deathrates being a function (in part) of testing rate. Knowing whether someone died of covid is not dependent on whether they got tested while they were alive. I actually think a standardized death rate is a way better comparative measure of how hard a country is getting hit by the virus, especially because, as you mentioned earlier, the availability of tests varies so much between countries.
 

notimp

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However, I disagree with deathrates being a function (in part) of testing rate. Knowing whether someone died of covid is not dependent on whether they got tested while they were alive.
If they were tested when they were dead, is a factor of overall testing capability.

If most of that is locked to your medical staff (daily testing), because you want to prevent them from becoming a vector, that still shifts priorities.

Also testing people while they were alive should have priority over testing them, when they are dead. (Alive means still a contagion risk)

Also we know, that reporting death numbers (procedure) widely varies between countries (actual cases tested, vs anyone who died at a hospital during the pandemic).
 

Deleted member 507653

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If they were tested when they were dead, is a factor of overall testing capability. If most of that is locked to your medical staff (daily testing), because you want to prevent them from becoming a vector, that still shifts priorities. Also testing people while they were alive should have priority over testing them, when they are dead. (Alive means still a contagion risk)

Actually from the CDC, "When COVID-19 is reported as a cause of death – or when it is listed as a “probable” or “presumed” cause — the death is coded as U07.1. This can include cases with or without laboratory confirmation."

Also we know, that reporting death numbers (procedure) widely varies between countries (actual cases tested, vs anyone who died at a hospital during the pandemic).

Sure this is definitely a possibility.

I just think the testing argument is flimsy. Now if we found countries with early HCQ use that experienced high death rates or no HCQ use that experienced low death rates anyway that would be interesting.
 

crimpshrine

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some of those articles are from before covid even existed. Like the article from 1896? not so helpful

9 articles out of maybe 80 or 90 studies? I think the 1896 one one is just establishing Quinine as being associated that early with respiratory.

Covid-19 is a cornavirus, and the first article in 2003 talks about CQ's effects on several viruses

The other 7 articles in the 2000's are dealing with Choloroquine effects on SARS viruses witch are also cronaviruses, like covid-19

I am guessing the point is that some form of chloroquine has documented results as recently as 2004 has having a positive effect on viruses, specifically cornaviruses.

To others regarding https://c19study.com/

As far as I am concerned I don't see it as propaganda, if you can prove that the over 39 studies on there that were positive that most were peer reviewed are fake, then maybe. It lists both negative and positive findings. The positive outweigh the negatives. And many of the negatives seem to be negative because it was given too late.

My understanding is some variation of this has been given to people for 60+ years safely. It is freely available in countries where malaria is common. My understanding over the counter in some places.

People like to site the FDA as finding problems with this. If chloroquine has been being taken for over 60 years safely by large parts of the world then that already contradicts the FDA findings to some degree in my opinion. 60 year real-world use vs the FDA searching the FAERS database (covering a 6 month time frame) after the fact does not seem perfect. Especially when we come to find how much error has occurred during this in hospitals when it comes to Covid. There are many people even in the US that take it without issue. I know people with RA take some form of it.

If you look at the FDA report there is a WIDE spread of the dosage amount given to users. Anywhere from 200mg to 1200mg per day. Maybe it needs to be more refined study?

You have doctors claiming they prescribe it without issue and prescribed early have had excellent success. I have no idea what the dosage has been for the doctors that claim success but it seems odd to me that the FDA would be so wide in dosage in their search findings. 1200mg per day vs 200mg per day seems drastically different. I also don't see a correlation between problems found and dosage levels.

Also I see from the FDA report they only have data on 256 people from this DB search they based their report on. How many total were treated? I can't find those #'s.
 
Last edited by crimpshrine,

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