Hacking When will Gateway 3DS start playing multiple games on a microchip?

drfsupercenter

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I think you guys are failing to understand exactly *why* we can't have a multiple game loader yet.

The original flash carts never had a restriction as to what could and couldn't be run.* It wasn't until DSi that Nintendo decided to lock the boot-sector for software, so the early slot-1 flash carts just wrote bits of code that could launch games. Think of it like its own ROM (in fact, it IS... if you look at something like AKAIO on the AceKard or the menu for Supercards/etc, you'll notice a boot.nds or similar on there)

*DS games themselves were encrypted, but there was no sort of lockout in place on the system to prevent unauthorized software from being run. Essentially the slot-1 flash carts had software that would decrypt them on the fly.

Once the DSi came out, it took flash cart makers a while to figure out a way to run their hacks on it, which is why the AceKard 2i was the biggest deal at the time (I remember having a slot-1 Supercard and having to wait for AK2i to come out)
What that did was take a signed DS game, and exploited the save file into crashing the system and needing a recovery file (similar to how the Stack Smash stuff worked on the Wii). The game they found loaded its save instantly, so you didn't ever see the menu at all, it just flashed the screen black for a couple seconds and then the AceKard menu showed up with your list of .nds files.

To date, every DS flash cart operates this same way. Which is why they all show up as retail game cartridges - that's how they have to, in order to be able to boot on the DSi or 3DS since Nintendo started putting in hash checking. The boot sector of those flash cards would be identical to the boot sector of a retail game - literally the only difference is that the have a hacked save file which allows it to load the menu.

Look at the CycloDS iEvolution. The only DSi-enhanced game at the time that was exploitable was My Healthy Cooking Coach. However, with that game, the save did not load until after the title screen, which is why every time you ran that cart you'd see the Ubisoft logos and then eventually it would flicker and the flash cart menu showed up. That's also why Nintendo was able to block the CycloDSi fairly early on, because there was only one game being used. (In fact, every time there are flash carts blocked for DSi/3DS now, the way they update is to change what game the card shows up as... you ever notice that? There were a fairly large number of regular DS titles with exploitable save systems)

Now, you may also recall that the DS and DSi used un-encrypted saves (at least for cartridges... DSiWare was different). They tried changing HOW the saves were stored with newer titles, starting with Pokémon HeartGold and SoulSilver (most likely due to those cartridges having an IR sensor, so the save area was moved), but the saves themselves remained unencrypted. Why did the 3DS switch to encrypted saves? I think you can guess the answer to that. Even with the current Gateway exploit, the saves are encrypted.

So, in order to run any sort of unsigned code, the following would have to happen first:
1. Save format on 3DS games cracked (this has happened for older games, but nothing after that)
2. A game would have to be discovered which loads its save in a fashion that allows stack smashing

Then, and ONLY then, will it be possible to run homebrew (and subsequently, multiple-game loaders) in 3DS mode.

What the Gateway does currently is actually quite clever. It spoofs its cart to show up as whatever signed game you choose (which is why you can't run homebrew)... however since the cartridge itself lacks some of the security features in place on retail 3DS cartridges (these are not part of the ROM, it's a separate chip), they need to use "gateway mode" to bypass the anti-piracy checking. Currently that's ALL it does, it does NOT bypass the need for running official signed code on the system.

Hopefully this will stop these threads, because seriously, I get tired of seeing them. I want 3DS homebrew and multi-ROM loaders as much as the next guy, but it's just physically not possible until the two things above have happened first - regardless of what Gateway team may be telling you.

Disclaimer: my facts might be slightly off, but I'm pretty certain about the general process. Feel free to correct any of my points if they're wrong.
 

Quicksilver88

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I am not sure what the big deal is on the 1 game per SD card....sure multi-rom is the bomb and will be much appreciated, but come on people....class 4 micro SD cards are fairly cheap (in the us atleast). I got 3 class 4 4GB for $16 from newegg and was able to get some class 4 8GB with SD adpapters at office max for $6 each. Also it is not that big a deal to carry 8 of them in one of the mini holders (amazon for cheap). Changing games is no harder than changing a cartridge.
 

Quicksilver88

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drfsupercenter

I can think of a much easier way to get multi-rom working without having to mess with game save encryption or filesystems or anything else tricky like that.

1. Make a PC tool that stitches their loader menu to whatever roms you choose sequentially and then create a single raw image.
2. Write the Raw image with winimage so you still have no file system
3. When you choose a rom from the menu the launcher just does a memory remap and points the system to the memory address of the game you chose.
4. When you do a home/close to exit said game it resets the memory adress to zero so you can launch the re-booter/menu program again.

So essentially while its running it the 3DS isn't really aware of the other Roms on the cartridge and the save games work just like they do now. I have seen tricks like this work with address redirection on multi-game ISOS on GC and PSP running PS1 so seems to me it could work just as easliy with memory address redirection on an SD card?
 

chauffler

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I think you guys are failing to understand exactly *why* we can't have a multiple game loader yet.

The original flash carts never had a restriction as to what could and couldn't be run.* It wasn't until DSi that Nintendo decided to lock the boot-sector for software, so the early slot-1 flash carts just wrote bits of code that could launch games. Think of it like its own ROM (in fact, it IS... if you look at something like AKAIO on the AceKard or the menu for Supercards/etc, you'll notice a boot.nds or similar on there)

*DS games themselves were encrypted, but there was no sort of lockout in place on the system to prevent unauthorized software from being run. Essentially the slot-1 flash carts had software that would decrypt them on the fly.

Once the DSi came out, it took flash cart makers a while to figure out a way to run their hacks on it, which is why the AceKard 2i was the biggest deal at the time (I remember having a slot-1 Supercard and having to wait for AK2i to come out)
What that did was take a signed DS game, and exploited the save file into crashing the system and needing a recovery file (similar to how the Stack Smash stuff worked on the Wii). The game they found loaded its save instantly, so you didn't ever see the menu at all, it just flashed the screen black for a couple seconds and then the AceKard menu showed up with your list of .nds files.

To date, every DS flash cart operates this same way. Which is why they all show up as retail game cartridges - that's how they have to, in order to be able to boot on the DSi or 3DS since Nintendo started putting in hash checking. The boot sector of those flash cards would be identical to the boot sector of a retail game - literally the only difference is that the have a hacked save file which allows it to load the menu.

Look at the CycloDS iEvolution. The only DSi-enhanced game at the time that was exploitable was My Healthy Cooking Coach. However, with that game, the save did not load until after the title screen, which is why every time you ran that cart you'd see the Ubisoft logos and then eventually it would flicker and the flash cart menu showed up. That's also why Nintendo was able to block the CycloDSi fairly early on, because there was only one game being used. (In fact, every time there are flash carts blocked for DSi/3DS now, the way they update is to change what game the card shows up as... you ever notice that? There were a fairly large number of regular DS titles with exploitable save systems)

Now, you may also recall that the DS and DSi used un-encrypted saves (at least for cartridges... DSiWare was different). They tried changing HOW the saves were stored with newer titles, starting with Pokémon HeartGold and SoulSilver (most likely due to those cartridges having an IR sensor, so the save area was moved), but the saves themselves remained unencrypted. Why did the 3DS switch to encrypted saves? I think you can guess the answer to that. Even with the current Gateway exploit, the saves are encrypted.

So, in order to run any sort of unsigned code, the following would have to happen first:
1. Save format on 3DS games cracked (this has happened for older games, but nothing after that)
2. A game would have to be discovered which loads its save in a fashion that allows stack smashing

Then, and ONLY then, will it be possible to run homebrew (and subsequently, multiple-game loaders) in 3DS mode.

What the Gateway does currently is actually quite clever. It spoofs its cart to show up as whatever signed game you choose (which is why you can't run homebrew)... however since the cartridge itself lacks some of the security features in place on retail 3DS cartridges (these are not part of the ROM, it's a separate chip), they need to use "gateway mode" to bypass the anti-piracy checking. Currently that's ALL it does, it does NOT bypass the need for running official signed code on the system.

Hopefully this will stop these threads, because seriously, I get tired of seeing them. I want 3DS homebrew and multi-ROM loaders as much as the next guy, but it's just physically not possible until the two things above have happened first - regardless of what Gateway team may be telling you.

Disclaimer: my facts might be slightly off, but I'm pretty certain about the general process. Feel free to correct any of my points if they're wrong.

k
 

drfsupercenter

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I can think of a much easier way to get multi-rom working without having to mess with game save encryption or filesystems or anything else tricky like that.

1. Make a PC tool that stitches their loader menu to whatever roms you choose sequentially and then create a single raw image.
2. Write the Raw image with winimage so you still have no file system
3. When you choose a rom from the menu the launcher just does a memory remap and points the system to the memory address of the game you chose.
4. When you do a home/close to exit said game it resets the memory adress to zero so you can launch the re-booter/menu program again.

So essentially while its running it the 3DS isn't really aware of the other Roms on the cartridge and the save games work just like they do now. I have seen tricks like this work with address redirection on multi-game ISOS on GC and PSP running PS1 so seems to me it could work just as easliy with memory address redirection on an SD card?

I'm sort of confused by what you're saying here. Are you implying that you'd have to use a DIFFERENT flash cart in order to set the boot area of the Gateway? I know the CycloDSi had something similar where you could switch it between DS Mode and DSi Mode, but that's still not the same as switching game images. That *still* would require some sort of exploit in order to run the common loader, or a PC to flash it each time, etc...
 

Quicksilver88

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I'm sort of confused by what you're saying here. Are you implying that you'd have to use a DIFFERENT flash cart in order to set the boot area of the Gateway? I know the CycloDSi had something similar where you could switch it between DS Mode and DSi Mode, but that's still not the same as switching game images. That *still* would require some sort of exploit in order to run the common loader, or a PC to flash it each time, etc...

Actually I envisioned it working more like this after thinking about and I think this could work:

Gateway builds the menu gui into the 3DS launcher, so when you go do the profile/ds step that exploit launches the actual GUI, which pulls its information about the rom ID and their adresses (that you stitched together with the PC program and it placed a little 'map' at the front of your raw file). You choose your game and the adress is rempaped and then the GUI reboots you back into the 3DS dashboard with the ROM mounted, then you launch it from the dashboard as normal. On a cold boot or if you want to run another game you go back to profile/ds and it re-loads the gui and then reboots you to the dashboard with a different ROM loaded.......

So see you would still be runing a raw/signed ROM image it would all just be about the GUI pointing to the proper adress of the ROM you choose on the microSD. In essence the 3DS launcher is already some form of unsigned code making kernel changes to the dashboard, I think if gateway wanted to do a spinning cube hello/world type thing like we have seen others do with their exploit they could, so really they just need to take it a step further and create a simple GUI and then reboot from that into the dashboard with the slected rom 'mounted'.

Its just a thought, but I think it could work, and again it would be a lot easier than building a true homebrew environment with file system and rom file support as well as trying to direct boot a rom. Work with whats in place is my thought......
 

The Catboy

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No one knows, I doubt even the official teams knows if it's possible.
To be honest just be happy the card actually turned out to be legit and be happy with what you got. It could have ended just being another fake like the last ones.
 
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jrr6415sun

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I am not sure what the big deal is on the 1 game per SD card....sure multi-rom is the bomb and will be much appreciated, but come on people....class 4 micro SD cards are fairly cheap (in the us atleast). I got 3 class 4 4GB for $16 from newegg and was able to get some class 4 8GB with SD adpapters at office max for $6 each. Also it is not that big a deal to carry 8 of them in one of the mini holders (amazon for cheap). Changing games is no harder than changing a cartridge.

If you're spending all this money on memory card why not just buy the games?

I have 300 games on my ds flash cart, there is a huge convenience, time and cost factor to having it all on one cart.
 
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Quicksilver88

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If you're spending all this money on memory card why not just buy the games?

I have 300 games on my ds flash cart, there is a huge convenience, time and cost factor to having it all on one cart.

$45 for 8 memory cards is less than I spent for SMT4 alone so hardly can be compared....and for the record I had purcahsed a dozen 3DS games before Gateway came out so purchasing games is not really an issue for me.....I just like to have options like region free and also to be able to try something out occassionally wihtout having to buy it......totally agree with you though in that having a library one one cart is really handy and do that myself with both DS and have a 32GB card in my psp that has about 25 games on it.....really handy if you travel or are away from home a lot.
 

drfsupercenter

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I just use one card and reflash it each time I want to play a new game. Unless you're going on a road trip with no computer, what's really wrong with that? Just get a 4 or 8GB card and put the game you want to play most on it.
 

jrr6415sun

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I just use one card and reflash it each time I want to play a new game. Unless you're going on a road trip with no computer, what's really wrong with that? Just get a 4 or 8GB card and put the game you want to play most on it.


That is a 5+ min process, if you're changing lots of games, it is a huge inconvenience. Plus I would say having a portable system it is mainly used when not by a computer.

Today I did kingdom hearts on my card, it's a 2GB file and so that takes over 3-4 minutes on a 10MB/s card. That is just to transfer the game to the card, not including switching the games, reruning the gateway etc.
 

drfsupercenter

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Well, I don't know about you, but I tend to only play one game at a time. So I'd put one on the card, play it a while until I either beat it or get bored of it, then switch.

Don't get me wrong, a multi loader would be nice, I'm just not expecting the impossible at this point in time.
 

Yepi69

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Well, first of all you're not the one developing nor helping Gateway in any kind nor manner, so in other terms you have no right to demand such a thing, it will come out when its ready, that is if it does.
Does it bother you much to switch MicroSD cards?
 

Pokemon7890

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Yepi 69 said:Well, first of all you're not the one developing nor helping Gateway in any kind nor manner, so in other terms you have no right to demand such a thing, it will come out when its ready, that is if it does. Does it bother you much to switch MicroSD cards?
I don't actually have the 3DS yet and I just started this thread to see if anyone knew anything about it. I'm not demanding for them to release it just trying to find out if they are working on it. Besides, Don't you have to wait for the Gateway 3DS to re-enter Gateway mode after you switch microchips?
 

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I don't understand why people keep saying this. Most 3ds roms I have downloaded are only 500mb. the largest I've seen is 1gb. Even pokemon x and y are only going to be 1.7gb. So a 16 or 32gb micro sd is plenty of space.


Resident Evil:Revelations take 4gb. (3.17). anyways, thats the largest game. the only reason to get 8gb microsd
 

PercentSevenC

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Besides, Don't you have to wait for the Gateway 3DS to re-enter Gateway mode after you switch microchips?
No. You pull out the Gateway cart, swap microSDs, and stick it back in. That's it. You only have to run the DS profile crash after a power cycle or playing a DS game.

If you've already got the 3DS ROM written to a microSD, it literally takes less time than switching DS ROMs with an R4.
 

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