Hacking games with nand saving

[Lord Nibbler]

Do you think we will start seeing more of those games since they can't be played with GW3DS?

 

[Snailface]

Do you think we will start seeing more of those games since they can't be played with GW3DS?

Do to the exploit nature of the Gateway, things like this can probably be worked around programmatically. It just takes time.

I don't think Nintendo is going to worry about switching to Nand-based saving since it becomes irrelevant once the initial exploit is blocked post v6.2.

 

[Lord Nibbler]

Do to the exploit nature of the Gateway, things like this can probably be worked around programmatically. It just takes time.

I don't think Nintendo is going to worry about switching to Nand-based saving since it becomes irrelevant once the initial exploit is blocked post v6.2.

But the Gateway has firmware spoofing

 

[Snailface]

But the Gateway has firmware spoofing

post v6.2 games will probably require functions that don't exist on old firmwares.

 

[Lord Nibbler]

post v6.2 games will probably require functions that don't exist on old firmwares.

Holy shit that means we won't be able to play them?
can't the gateway bypass that with a patch or something?

 

[skarthebloodchild]

Holy shit that means we won't be able to play them?
can't the gateway bypass that with a patch or something?

maybe yes maybe not.
maybe cfw maybe not.
maybe another flashcart maybe not.

 

[redkeyboard]

Doesn't NAND based saving break 3DS save transferring? I don't see Nintendo games sticking with it as it makes their features useless.

 

[luigi90210]

Holy shit that means we won't be able to play them?
can't the gateway bypass that with a patch or something?

depends on how the bypass and rom firmware checks work, if the rom sends a request for firmware version it gateway sends back firmware X.XX which is either the same or higher than the requirement, it technically should run since the requirement to boot was met, but if the rom requires the new features of the firmware to boot, then there will be problems

 

[aos10]

i am 100% sure Pokemon X and Y will have it
not only because of the gateway
but mainly because of the save file for pokemon games
in the past pokemon games people abused this method to get duplicate items and pokemon by backup the save file and trade and restore

 

[Deleted User]

i am 100% sure Pokemon X and Y will have it
not only because of the gateway
but mainly because of the save file for pokemon games
in the past pokemon games people abused this method to get duplicate items and pokemon by backup the save file and trade and restore

Plus its nintendo's money making machine they dont want pirates

 

[weatMod]

depends on how the bypass and rom firmware checks work, if the rom sends a request for firmware version it gateway sends back firmware X.XX which is either the same or higher than the requirement, it technically should run since the requirement to boot was met, but if the rom requires the new features of the firmware to boot, then there will be problems

but cant the roms be patched to not make syscalls for elements in newer fw or to redirect them elsewhere, isnt that how the ps3 got around games that required newer fw before the new ff, TB and lv0 keys got leaked? and can the latest fw requiring games still be played on 3.55? or do you have to update to the latest cfw to make the newer games work

 

[Quicksilver88]

but cant the roms be patched to not make syscalls for elements in newer fw or to redirect them elsewhere, isnt that how the ps3 got around games that required newer fw before the new ff, TB and lv0 keys got leaked? and can the latest fw requiring games still be played on 3.55? or do you have to update to the latest cfw to make the newer games work

Again we can only speculate but once Gateway gets unsigned code running then yes roms can easily be patched to deal with things like save redirection (to a different eeprom or nand or even to the 3DS or gateway flash card), disable AP (anti-piracy) code, or work around system calls in newer firmwares.

I just want to add that this stuff about system calls in newer firmware rarely plays out.....Manufacatures for a variety of reasons do not change core firmware that much....look at the ps3 it is on 4.46 and still 90%+ of all new games coming out can still be made to work on 3.41/3.55 with a simple eboot modification (which does require decrypting the eboot and resigning it with old keys). Still only rarely do .sprx files (when they are used) need to be modified to remove or re-route newer firmware calls.

All these tactics require time/money/effort by the manufacture or publisher so they are not just done willy nilly. Generally the higher profile the release (like Pokemon or Zelda) the more effort Nintendo will put into the AP measures deployed......where as we may see lower profile or 3rd party relases that don't employ such efforts. As long as gateway stays at it you are likely going to be able to get just about everything running and once their code and methods get cracked then other groups will join the effort to get other stuff running. As others have said I doubt Nintendo will just deploy Nand saving for all roms as it is expensive and they are only going to use it when technical reasons or save game hacking is a big concern.

 

[luigi90210]

but cant the roms be patched to not make syscalls for elements in newer fw or to redirect them elsewhere, isnt that how the ps3 got around games that required newer fw before the new ff, TB and lv0 keys got leaked? and can the latest fw requiring games still be played on 3.55? or do you have to update to the latest cfw to make the newer games work

its possible, the reason the ps3 blocked games on older firmwares was due to 3.55 being the last firmware you could install linux on iirc and it had to do with some of the code in that specific firmware, but the ps3 can play all games because all you do is edit them to remove the check, same with the xbox 360 and unreleased games that require unreleased firmware

i doubt nintendo will do much to change this

 

[luigi90210]

Again we can only speculate but once Gateway gets unsigned code running then yes roms can easily be patched to deal with things like save redirection (to a different eeprom or nand or even to the 3DS or gateway flash card), disable AP (anti-piracy) code, or work around system calls in newer firmwares.

I just want to add that this stuff about system calls in newer firmware rarely plays out.....Manufacatures for a variety of reasons do not change core firmware that much....look at the ps3 it is on 4.46 and still 90%+ of all new games coming out can still be made to work on 3.41/3.55 with a simple eboot modification (which does require decrypting the eboot and resigning it with old keys). Still only rarely do .sprx files (when they are used) need to be modified to remove or re-route newer firmware calls.

All these tactics require time/money/effort by the manufacture or publisher so they are not just done willy nilly. Generally the higher profile the release (like Pokemon or Zelda) the more effort Nintendo will put into the AP measures deployed......where as we may see lower profile or 3rd party relases that don't employ such efforts. As long as gateway stays at it you are likely going to be able to get just about everything running and once their code and methods get cracked then other groups will join the effort to get other stuff running. As others have said I doubt Nintendo will just deploy Nand saving for all roms as it is expensive and they are only going to use it when technical reasons or save game hacking is a big concern.

i doubt nintendo would even implement NAND saves at all, it would break too many features and too many people would lose their saved games when updating to newer 3ds systems and that would give nintendo more crap through the media than some save game hacker or piracy would ever do
ya they could implement a way to move the saves over but that would be too much work and money invested over a system with very little to no piracy in the first place and that it will cause problems for players who sell their consoles before buying the new one or trading in their old console for the new one and honestly, it would be seen as punishing everyone for what, 1% of the users who do pirate

nintendo doesnt need bad publicity like MS has seen with the Xbone

 

[Quicksilver88]

i doubt nintendo would even implement NAND saves at all, it would break too many features and too many people would lose their saved games when updating to newer 3ds systems and that would give nintendo more crap through the media than some save game hacker or piracy would ever do
ya they could implement a way to move the saves over but that would be too much work and money invested over a system with very little to no piracy in the first place and that it will cause problems for players who sell their consoles before buying the new one or trading in their old console for the new one and honestly, it would be seen as punishing everyone for what, 1% of the users who do pirate

nintendo doesnt need bad publicity like MS has seen with the Xbone

That's pretty much what I am saying is I don't think they will go to extraordinary measures because the % of piracy is relatively low....the gateway is not really a 'consumer' level piracy device anyways as it is too cumbersome with the two carts, deploy the DS hack, put it in gateway mode, write your roms with a raw image program, one rom per SD....I mean for those of us that have implemented much trickier mods, or even do hardware modifications, it is nothing but it is by no means a Wii HBC softmod or as simple as giving a kid in the family a DS flash cart loaded with goodies. This device is exciting for those in the scene because it is something for the 3DS and has already led to region free which turns a lot of people on. I hope it leads to unsigned code as the 3DS would make a decent media and emulator platform if it was opened up. Still I think we are years away from 'consumer' level 3DS solutions and that is probably a good thing as it is just hitting its stride and I want to see it continue to be well supported. If anything flash carts may lead more devs to digital only publishing on the eshop like capcom is doing with the upcomign Ace games because until we get to unsigned code or a true CFW there won't be anyway to run those games from a flash cart.

 

[luigi90210]

That's pretty much what I am saying is I don't think they will go to extraordinary measures because the % of piracy is relatively low....the gateway is not really a 'consumer' level piracy device anyways as it is too cumbersome with the two carts, deploy the DS hack, put it in gateway mode, write your roms with a raw image program, one rom per SD....I mean for those of us that have implemented much trickier mods, or even do hardware modifications, it is nothing but it is by no means a Wii HBC softmod or as simple as giving a kid in the family a DS flash cart loaded with goodies. This device is exciting for those in the scene because it is something for the 3DS and has already led to region free which turns a lot of people on. I hope it leads to unsigned code as the 3DS would make a decent media and emulator platform if it was opened up. Still I think we are years away from 'consumer' level 3DS solutions and that is probably a good thing as it is just hitting its stride and I want to see it continue to be well supported. If anything flash carts may lead more devs to digital only publishing on the eshop like capcom is doing with the upcomign Ace games because until we get to unsigned code or a true CFW there won't be anyway to run those games from a flash cart.

even with DS flashcarts being so easy to use, i doubt the piracy % is greater than 2% of the entire world wide DS community

i can see why nintendo would block flashcarts with updates since it is easy and it will cost them nothing to update the firmware and fix some bugs in the process as well

i do hope we get true CFW on the 3ds, it will just make everything easier for people who want to run homebrew/pirate(ya im mentioning this because it WILL happen)

 

[Quicksilver88]

even with DS flashcarts being so easy to use, i doubt the piracy % is greater than 2% of the entire community world wide DS community

i can see why nintendo would block flashcarts with updates since it is easy and it will cost them nothing to update the firmware and fix some bugs in the process as well

i do hope we get true CFW on the 3ds, it will just make everything easier for people who want to run homebrew/pirate(ya im mentioning this because it WILL happen)

Thats what I keep saying is when you have console sales of 150mil I would be suprised if the flashcart use was 3mil. In general gamers are just too lazy, spoiled, and untechnical to mess with system modification or deal with ordering from 'shady' grey market hardware providers. Additionally I think the % is even lower in the major markets (US,UK,EU,JP) where about 90% of all system sales occure. Thats why I have to laugh when people are always goign on how oh piracy is ruining this platform or hurt the sales of game X. Most the time when niche titles don't sell well its because the distribution is lousy for them. Digital distribution should help titles like that but even then you can't always get all titles digital. I never found Zero's last reward at retail new for 3DS or Vita and then lucked out one day and found it used at a local gamestop for Vita....one copy. Never seen it for 3DS at reatil. It is one of the highest rated games for both systems. You can buy it digital for Vita but I don't think you can get it digital for 3DS. Same holds for many other titles on many systems. So games like COD, or Halo, or EA sports, or Nintendo, or Sony titles get distributed everywhere in mass and are generally top games so they are going to sell big, but many very fine games never get the exposure and then publishers/devs wonder why they sold poorly...I know their niche but most of Altus' I never see outside a gamestop...have never once seen an SMT or Persona game at Target, Walmart, ect. Sad really.

 

[luigi90210]

Thats what I keep saying is when you have console sales of 150mil I would be suprised if the flashcart use was 3mil. In general gamers are just too lazy, spoiled, and untechnical to mess with system modification or deal with ordering from 'shady' grey market hardware providers. Additionally I think the % is even lower in the major markets (US,UK,EU,JP) where about 90% of all system sales occure. Thats why I have to laugh when people are always goign on how oh piracy is ruining this platform or hurt the sales of game X. Most the time when niche titles don't sell well its because the distribution is lousy for them. Digital distribution should help titles like that but even then you can't always get all titles digital. I never found Zero's last reward at retail new for 3DS or Vita and then lucked out one day and found it used at a local gamestop for Vita....one copy. Never seen it for 3DS at reatil. It is one of the highest rated games for both systems. You can buy it digital for Vita but I don't think you can get it digital for 3DS. Same holds for many other titles on many systems. So games like COD, or Halo, or EA sports, or Nintendo, or Sony titles get distributed everywhere in mass and are generally top games so they are going to sell big, but many very fine games never get the exposure and then publishers/devs wonder why they sold poorly...I know their niche but most of Altus' I never see outside a gamestop...have never once seen an SMT or Persona game at Target, Walmart, ect. Sad really.

the problem with people who think that piracy will kill a platform is that they are brainwashed by the publishers who go out and blame it as a cause for why their game sold poorly when in fact the main cause of its downfall was poor design, i doubt distribution for the game isnt the main problem, yes its part of the problem but usually when a game sells terribly, the game itself is really bad
imo buying used games hurt devs more so than pirating them does and i see tons of anti-pirates say go buy a used game, dont pirate, blah, blah, blah, the way i see it is, not everyone pirates, but everyone has gotten their hands on a used game, whether it was from lamestop, Ebay, or a friend and the devs see no money from used game sales, and what i find even funnier is when people believe that nintendo, or a publisher will destroy their console for pirating a game(IE nintendo's 3ds warning), and these sheeple become so brainwashed they just take everything they(meaning the publishers and bureaucrats) say as fact without looking into the bigger picture

unfortunately we live in a sheeple society where people are stupid as hell and there are only a small handful of realists and non conformists(look at me i sound like a hipster XD) who actually think for ourselves and society looks down on us because we are different and we want to know the bigger picture.... but i digress, im not promoting piracy here, i believe that developers work hard, and they should get paid for it but piracy with video games and movies for that matter is not and never will be a big problem like the media and publishers will make it out to be, heck even piracy in the music industry is going down because people are so damn lazy, they would rather pay for a service to stream music to them over going through the hassle of downloading the song for free

also im not trying to make it seem like im arguing with you because im not, i couldnt agree more with what you are saying

 

[Ericthegreat]

Holy shit that means we won't be able to play them?
can't the gateway bypass that with a patch or something?

It is possible, especially if they allow us to run homebrew.

too long

If you look it up, there is a study that shows that most people pirating a game, were probably not going to buy it anyway. (I am thinking it effects first party games a bit more then usual tho.)

 

[Quicksilver88]

the problem with people who think that piracy will kill a platform is that they are brainwashed by the publishers who go out and blame it as a cause for why their game sold poorly when in fact the main cause of its downfall was poor design, i doubt distribution for the game isnt the main problem, yes its part of the problem but usually when a game sells terribly, the game itself is really bad
imo buying used games hurt devs more so than pirating them does and i see tons of anti-pirates say go buy a used game, dont pirate, blah, blah, blah, the way i see it is, not everyone pirates, but everyone has gotten their hands on a used game, whether it was from lamestop, Ebay, or a friend and the devs see no money from used game sales, and what i find even funnier is when people believe that nintendo, or a publisher will destroy their console for pirating a game(IE nintendo's 3ds warning), and these sheeple become so brainwashed they just take everything they(meaning the publishers and bureaucrats) say as fact without looking into the bigger picture

unfortunately we live in a sheeple society where people are stupid as hell and there are only a small handful of realists and non conformists(look at me i sound like a hipster XD) who actually think for ourselves and society looks down on us because we are different and we want to know the bigger picture.... but i digress, im not promoting piracy here, i believe that developers work hard, and they should get paid for it but piracy with video games and movies for that matter is not and never will be a big problem like the media and publishers will make it out to be, heck even piracy in the music industry is going down because people are so damn lazy, they would rather pay for a service to stream music to them over going through the hassle of downloading the song for free

also im not trying to make it seem like im arguing with you because im not, i couldnt agree more with what you are saying

Not to go way off topic here but yes you are absolutely correct....we are living in an age of mass propaganda and people are largely lemmings. It is getting so bad that our freedoms and liberties are truly at risk because the politicians from both sides just use scare tactics and take away whatever rights they see fit and people are just like ho hum and let them. The stuff with N$A spying and the impending use of drones on US soil is really scarry stuff as we are pretty much goign to be a high tech police state and we the 'tax payer' are paying for it all. Thankfully people's distrust of the gov and media is at an all time highs, but when will that translate to action, political or otherwise.....I would be just fine if we had a 'french' style revolution sweep thru washington and just start over. The design of our republic and constition is nearly perfect, that is not the problem, the problem is ther pervision of it that has been happing for decades but really kicked into high gear after 9_11.