When is pirating ok? (discussion)

[Filipe C Bello dos Santos]

It is not right. However, they belong in museums long before they belong as part of 1000 file romsets tucked away in pirate harddrives. If you think the majority of pirates download or copy games in an effort to preserve history...well...I hope you don't.

My story at least, i grew up when arcades had better graphics than home consoles, so i build an arcade controller and have a 6k roms on mame. but i'm not being pushed by any noble cause.

 

[retKHAAAN]

This!

Yeah, see, the problem is that the organizations wishing to archive would be committing copyright infringement as well.

http://gbatemp.net/threads/the-library-of-congress-says-copyright-laws-suck.262963/

So then the goal should be working towards changing law rather than circumventing it. Yes, people have tried and failed. No, it is not a worthless exercise.

 

[Its_just_Lou]

You guys work this out amongst yourselves. I'm off to grab a few more SDs, blank discs, and a case of beer...let me know how it all turns out, eh?

 

[dehry]

Copyright for any work is the life of the creator + 50-70 years depending on what country you are from. Things like games and music can be anywhere from 50-95 years after release. A major player in the copyright battle is Disney. Steamboat Willie ,the first appearance of Mickey Mouse, was two years away from going into the public domain and Disney got it extended. It doesn't matter if in your country it is a shorter period because virtually all nations have agreements to keep things in copyright if it is in another one. As matter of a fact, 2018 will be the next year anything even enters the public domain.

It's going to be your grandchildren or great grandchildren that will be the first to play anything legally, if they ever come out of the Microsoft Holodeck.

Used games are not the same as piracy because of the first-sale doctrine, which allows you to transfer legally purchased physical goods to another individual. It doesn't make the game company any money, but you also aren't playing the game anymore. If you want to play it again, you have to go out and buy another copy that was legally paid for at some point or buy new. With piracy, no money leaves anyone's hands and it's only recorded on some torrent site as another download.

 

[Rydian]

Used games are not the same as piracy because of the first-sale doctrine, which allows you to transfer legally purchased physical goods to another individual. It doesn't make the game company any money, but you also aren't playing the game anymore. If you want to play it again, you have to go out and buy another copy that was legally paid for at some point or buy new. With piracy, no money leaves anyone's hands and it's only recorded on some torrent site as another download.

I don't believe that used games are the same as piracy, I bring up that comparison to show people that the idea "if you don't pay the company it's piracy" is flawed.

 

[Veho]

Because you said that people always want to be entertained by the newest games.

I said that the newest games are the only thing that can't be obtained cheap or entirely free via legal means. So the "I can't afford entertainment" argument boils down to "I can't afford the newest titles" and suddenly that justification no longer holds water.

 

[Filipe C Bello dos Santos]

Sure thing, but there's some old games that are rare expensive, such as "little Samson" for NES. One copy of that game can cost US$300,00 on ebay. Only collectors will want to pay that much for an old NES game.

 

[TeeR]

When Nintendo releases Kirby's Dream Collection in every country but yours.

 

[Filipe C Bello dos Santos]

Another reason to pirate, i just found out the name of a game that i played 20 years ago, in a cartridge, but i can't find any images of cartridges on google, just famicon disks. this game is rare, and i'm going to play again when i get home.
http://strategywiki.org/wiki/Fuuun_Shourinken

 

[retKHAAAN]

Another reason to pirate, i just found out the name of a game that i played 20 years ago, in a cartridge, but i can't find any images of cartridges on google, just famicon disks. this game is rare, and i'm going to play again when i get home.
http://strategywiki.org/wiki/Fuuun_Shourinken

That is not a "reason to pirate". The only possible reason to pirate is that you don't want to acquire an item by legitimate means. You would like to play the game for nostalgic reasons, but you do not deem it worth the current financial burden that comes with it. Being rare is not a reason to pirate it. Not wanting to put forth the effort required to purchase it is your reason for pirating it, regardless of how extreme the financial burden might be.

 

[Filipe C Bello dos Santos]

That is not a "reason to pirate". The only possible reason to pirate is that you don't want to acquire an item by legitimate means. You would like to play the game for nostalgic reasons, but you do not deem it worth the current financial burden that comes with it. Being rare is not a reason to pirate it. Not wanting to put forth the effort required to purchase it is your reason for pirating it, regardless of how extreme the financial burden might be.

It's a reason, not an excuse.
for committing a crime, one does not need means, motive and opportunity ?

 

[retKHAAAN]

It's a reason, not an excuse.
for committing a crime, one does not need means, motive and opportunity ?

All I'm saying is that say your reason to pirate is because the game is rare, when in actuality the reason you are pirating it is because you do not want to invest in everything required to play it legitimately (purchasing hardware, finding/purchasing/shipping the game, etc...). The game is indeed rare, but it is not impossible to play it legitimately. You would just prefer not to.

 

[Filipe C Bello dos Santos]

All I'm saying is that say your reason to pirate is because the game is rare, when in actuality the reason you are pirating it is because you do not want to invest in everything required to play it legitimately (purchasing hardware, finding/purchasing/shipping the game, etc...). The game is indeed rare, but it is not impossible to play it legitimately. You would just prefer not to.

True, only collectors will prefer to purchase this kind of game, and for a lot of cases, the game is in japanese and it could not be found anywhere outside japan.

 

[Devin]

Quoting myself from the other piracy thread.

I used to be clean man. Save up pennies in a little coin jar for months to get my games. And then it started by getting a little taste of the Wii piracy scene. I thought like anyone else would think "Alright man, one hit of a pirated game and I'm done". But it got up to 2 hits, and then 3 hits, and then 42 hits. It didn't stop at the Wii, the DS, Xbox 360, PS2, PS3, PC, and other systems were to follow man. Now I'm on street begging for change, so I can pay for my bandwidth to pirate more games. The worst part is, when you get one hit. The next time you want a hit, you have to pirate more man. To get that same "feel" again.

One hit will ruin your life.

Spoiler

But in all seriousness. I am a pirate, a very dirty pirate. I'm already in too deep to change, and if I were to try to quit. I would look at my Xbox 360/Wii and not be using it to it's full potential. It may seem a little selfish, but I really wouldn't feel pride in paying for a game I could have gotten for free. While my money could be used for other things.

 

[retKHAAAN]

Quoting myself from the other piracy thread.

The poisoned youth...

 

[koimayeul]

To add to the discussion the latest replies are forking to a new direction i would like to highlight, the notion of abandonware.

For this particular NES game, who in their right mind would spend hundreds beside collectors moguls to play it? Honest!

When a software is not produced anymore and not sold anymore through retail or digital store, it is "somehow" considered abandonware, a form of piracy for some and a chance to get your hands on otherwise unavailable content to most of us.
Usually a simple call from the copyright holders to abandonware sites have their IP removed from their service, exemple with Lucasarts. Or when said software are back on the market they are removed from abandonware, exemple with GOG games.

Wiki : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abandonware


Also, another fork from piracy and laws : Fan translations and undub.

Usually you find in legal terms of use it is forbidden to reverse engineer (in clear, to "hack") a product and mess about their underlying codes. Which is what fan translations teams are hard at work doing to provide us with their welcomed patches! Thanks, by the way! I would have never played Lunar Eclipse if it wasn't for you folks.. It actually introduced me to the Fatal Frames on Wii and i puchased the second from retail, full price.

As for undub, it is usually patches to keep the original voice acting on a localised copy of a game.

On PC gaming you find a lot, and i mean A LOT of subtitles patches and languages packs, how and why is it so rare and a problem with console gaming?

 

[Filipe C Bello dos Santos]

To add to the discussion the latest replies are forking to a new direction i would like to highlight, the notion of abandonware.

For this particular NES game, who in their right mind would spend hundreds beside collectors moguls to play it? Honest!

When a software is not produced anymore and not sold anymore through retail or digital store, it is "somehow" considered abandonware, a form of piracy for some and a chance to get your hands on otherwise unavailable content to most of us.
Usually a simple call from the copyright holders to abandonware sites have their IP removed from their service, exemple with Lucasarts. Or when said software are back on the market they are removed from abandonware, exemple with GOG games.

Wiki : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abandonware


Also, another fork from piracy and laws : Fan translations and undub.

Usually you find in legal terms of use it is forbidden to reverse engineer (in clear, to "hack") a product and mess about their underlying codes. Which is what fan translations teams are hard at work doing to provide us with their welcomed patches! Thanks, by the way! I would have never played Lunar Eclipse if it wasn't for you folks.. It actually introduced me to the Fatal Frames on Wii and i puchased the second from retail, full price.

As for undub, it is usually patches to keep the original voice acting on a localised copy of a game, fitting exemple that Fatal Frame 2 / Project Zero 2 Wii i did purchase i have a "custom" version with Japanese VA and the official French localisation..

On PC gaming you find a lot, and i mean A LOT of subtitles patches and languages packs, how and why is it so rare and a problem with console gaming?

The home of underdogs, i learned the term from that site. I used to download a lot of old pc games there. Without them, i would never had played killing time or legacy of kain.

 

[Rydian]

Also, another fork from piracy and laws : Fan translations and undub.

Usually you find in legal terms of use it is forbidden to reverse engineer (in clear, to "hack") a product and mess about their underlying codes.

And thankfully that's a load of crap since reverse-engineering is legal (which is why you never see translators/hackers even hit with a C&D).

On PC gaming you find a lot, and i mean A LOT of subtitles patches and languages packs, how and why is it so rare and a problem with console gaming?

It's much, much easier to hack shit on a PC than on a console. On a PC you have 50+ years of tools designed for the job, and full access to everything you need (admin access, kernel access, even run shit in a VM to peek at values), whereas on many consoles you don't. Even getting unsigned code to run at all on some consoles is a bitch, let alone getting admin/kernel access while running a retail game (and maintaining access to other output sources to write logs and shit).

Hell, the Wii doesn't even have an operating system, there is no way to run a second program alongside a retail game, so people often need to use Dolphin to develop any sort of game-specific hacks or replacements.

 

[koimayeul]

And thankfully that's a load of crap since reverse-engineering is legal (which is why you never see translators/hackers even hit with a C&D).

It's much, much easier to hack shit on a PC than on a console. On a PC you have 50+ years of tools designed for the job, and full access to everything you need (admin access, kernel access, even run shit in a VM to peek at values), whereas on many consoles you don't. Even getting unsigned code to run at all on some consoles is a bitch, let alone getting admin/kernel access while running a retail game (and maintaining access to other output sources to write logs and shit).

Hell, the Wii doesn't even have an operating system, there is no way to run a second program alongside a retail game, so people often need to use Dolphin to develop any sort of game-specific hacks or replacements.

Hmm i'm pretty sure i read about reverse engineering law as i was taking a dump yesterday with my Tenchu Wii manual on my lap. Lol, but yes as you say thankfully there is not a big history of trouble for fan translations works. I actually never heard about a cease & desist but quite the opposite, used fan translation work toward a professional localisation for an Aksis or Atlus game these last years if i recall. Surely tools to be developed are the key to work on hacking stuff, compile and recompile etc.. It just feels so underground (in terms of illegal hacking) compared to PC. Just to have a modifed Wii / PSP or a flashcard for your legal backups feels wrong to some people.. :S

 

[Devin]

The poisoned youth...

*bows* At your service.