Homebrew Why did 3dbrew...

granville

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That comparison is strictly based on "bits" and assumes that every calculation will require 64-bit precision when in reality this is actually rarely the case. If it were, the jump from 32-bit computing to 64-bit computing would provide a 100% performance boost, which it most certainly did not. You're living a fairytale.

Bits was not the only thing discussed in that ARM11 vs Broadway comparison though.

If ARM11's were so much weaker than Gekko or Broadway, intact/upgraded ports like Monster Hunter Tri Ultimate just wouldn't be possible at all. If you take DMIPS into account, even the New 3DS' quad core CPU (only three of which are likely available to games) should be beaten by GC/Wii.
 
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Foxi4

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Bits was not the only thing discussed in that ARM11 vs Broadway comparison though.
He also spoke about L1 and L2 cache, which does help, but the whole pastebin focuses on "bits" and the word length. "Bits" are not a measurement of processing power, spyro3DSguy sounds like someone from the Bit War era when everyone boasted about how their systems are 16/32/64-bit when at the end of the day they were comparable.
 

granville

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He also spoke about L1 and L2 cache, which does help, but the whole pastebin focuses on "bits" and the word length. "Bits" are not a measurement of processing power, spyro3DSguy sounds like someone from the Bit War era when everyone boasted about how their systems are 16/32/64-bit when at the end of the day they were comparable.

The post outright addresses that it was more complex than just more bits = more power, but it was also an explanation of what a "bit" is in the first place and how it can affect a well designed system. It can also mean no improvement however if the system isn't designed well. We've seen this much from the Atari Jaguar. But bits can make a difference if the hardware is designed properly, it has been done. If your hardware has other bottlenecks in its design, it can neuter any performance benefits gained by bits anyways. The N64 suffered from this problem, it apparently had ram/cache limitations which severely hampered texture resolution (not to mention it was difficult to program for). Also true of the PS2's CPU to some extent, despite being capable of "more bits" than rival consoles, there were apparently other bottlenecks that brought its performance down below GC levels (not just the lower clock speed). Probably a reason its real world polygon levels were so dramatically lower than the theoretical.
 

MyJoyConRunsHot

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That comparison is strictly based on "bits" and assumes that every calculation will require 64-bit precision when in reality this is actually rarely the case. If it were, the jump from 32-bit computing to 64-bit computing would provide a 100% performance boost, which it most certainly did not. You're living a fairytale.

Actually, proper research into the jump from 32 to 64-bits has revealed that it did. You must be thinking of the N64 which was due to the fault of devs and being ahead of its time. Your comparison has little bearing on how 64-bit is handled nowadays. Most programs built for particular systems are built with bit amount in mind. Building software with bit amounts in mind allows for better performance. Its a similar concept with more cores, programs need to be built to take advantage of these extra cores for the performance gains to be perceivable, but when they do, which like bits, is becoming more and more common, they blow 32 bits hardware/software out of the water. Of courseabove all, bits is not be all end all just like every other single aspect of comparing CPUs. But get your heads out of the sand and do some research:
http://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2013/11/economist-explains-7
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/64-bit_computing#32-bit_vs_64-bit
 

Foxi4

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Actually, proper research into the jump from 32 to 64-bits has revealed that it did. You must be thinking of the N64 which was due to the fault of devs and being ahead of its time. Your comparison has little bearing on how 64-bit is handled nowadays. Most programs built for particular systems are built with bit amount in mind. Building software with bit amounts in mind allows for better performance. Its a similar concept with more cores, programs need to be built to take advantage of these extra cores for the performance gains to be perceivable, but when they do, which like bits, is becoming more and more common, they blow 32 bits hardware/software out of the water. Get your heads out of the sand and do some research:
http://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2013/11/economist-explains-7
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/64-bit_computing#32-bit_vs_64-bit
I'm not saying that 64-bit isn't a groundbreaking change that brings improved performance, I'm saying that a 64-bit downclocked mobile processor won't necessarily win a fight against a full-scale 32-bit processor just because it's 64-bit.

PS: I'd love to see the "proper research" that shows that switching from 32-bit to 64-bit provides a performance boost of 100%. :P
 

MyJoyConRunsHot

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I'm not saying that 64-bit isn't a groundbreaking change that brings improved performance, I'm saying that a 64-bit downclocked mobile processor won't necessarily win a fight against a full-scale 32-bit processor just because it's 64-bit.
Then provide proof on how the Gekko produces more operations/instructions than the Arm11 instead of just using "full-scale" as opposed to "low power" as a benchmark let alone spec sheet for how they compare. "downclocked" doesn't mean much if the Arm more efficient, has more cache, better bandwidth, longer pipelines, etc. Any info on the external bus, cache deficiency, branch prediction, pipeline, bandwidth, etc. Then we can make a proper judgment.
 

Foxi4

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Then provide proof on how the Gekko produces more operations/instructions than the Arm11 instead of just using "full-scale" as opposed to "low power" as a benchmark let alone spec sheet for how they compare.
I don't have any proof at all beyond what can be calculated, which is the DMIPS values of both chips. Since that measurement is unreliable, neither one of us wants to accept it as definite, but it's the only one we have. Anything else is just fluff that has no comparative value whatsoever, which is why I personally refrain from making a definite judgement. You on the other hand seem to go out of your way to hear something that reflects your views. Sorry, I won't be your echo chamber - I disagree with what you're saying, I'd like to see a proper benchmark of the two CPU's first. As it stands today and with the available data in mind, saying that the 3DS' CPU is the stronger one seems outlandish, but there's no evidence to confirm or deny that.
 

MyJoyConRunsHot

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Bits was not the only thing discussed in that ARM11 vs Broadway comparison though.

If ARM11's were so much weaker than Gekko or Broadway, intact/upgraded ports like Monster Hunter Tri Ultimate just wouldn't be possible at all. If you take DMIPS into account, even the New 3DS' quad core CPU (only three of which are likely available to games) should be beaten by GC/Wii.
Not to mention of intact/upgraded tech demos of RE5 and Conduit 2 .
 

MyJoyConRunsHot

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I don't have any proof at all beyond what can be calculated, which is the DMIPS values of both chips. Since that measurement is unreliable, neither one of us wants to accept it as definite, but it's the only one we have. Anything else is just fluff that has no comparative value whatsoever, which is why I personally refrain from making a definite judgement. You on the other hand seem to go out of your way to hear something that reflects your views. Sorry, I won't be your echo chamber - I disagree with what you're saying, I'd like to see a proper benchmark of the two CPU's first. As it stands today and from the available data, saying that the 3DS' CPU is the stronger one seems outlandish, but there's no evidence to confirm or deny that.

I'm merely using specs at my disposal to make a theoretical judgement on performance. Benchmarks and more hardware pushing games will dictate things at the end of the day but simply looking at said components can at least give one a rough window of where the CPU/GPU stands. You insist on standing by your CPU being more powerful based on nothing other than some fluffed architectural claims and cleverly programmed games, thats fine, no benchmarks have been performed yet and there is still room for more games like Ironfall to test the capabilites. Leave it at that.
 

Foxi4

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On top of intact/upgraded RE5 and Conduit 2 tech demos.
As far as RE5 is concerned, it's an MT Framework game, Capcom probably copy-pasted resources into the Lite version of the engine, there you go. Don't know the details about Conduit, but it uses a pretty efficient engine. All in all, the games the system runs has f*ck all to do with a CPU comparison, you might as well say that the Wii is just as powerful as an Xbox 360 because it ran Dead Rising.
I'm merely using specs at my disposal to make a theoretical judgement on performance. Benchmarks and more hardware pushing games will dictate things at the end of the day but simply looking at said components can at least give one a rough window of where the CPU/GPU stands. You insist on standing by your CPU being more powerful based on nothing other than some fluffed architectural claims and cleverly programmed games, thats fine, no benchmarks have been performed yet and there is still room for more games like Ironfall to test the capabilites. Leave it at that.
I'm willing to agree on that - we have too little factual data to make an educated judgement, so we should focus on what the hardware can do rather than on the raw metal performance which we can't
(or rather, haven't) measure. :)
 

MyJoyConRunsHot

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As far as RE5 is concerned, it's an MT Framework game, Capcom probably copy-pasted resources into the Lite version of the engine, there you go. Don't know the details about Conduit, but it uses a pretty efficient engine. All in all, the games the system runs has f*ck all to do with a CPU comparison, you might as well say that the Wii is just as powerful as an Xbox 360 because it ran Dead Rising.
I'm willing to agree on that - we have too little factual data to make an educated judgement, so we should focus on what the hardware can do rather than on the raw metal performance which we can't (or rather, haven't) measure. :)

So they found it incredibly easy to port a ps360 game to the less powerful 3DS but got too frustrated to finish porting to the Wii?
http://www.nintendolife.com/news/2012/01/capcom_had_resident_evil_5_running_on_3ds
http://nintendoeverything.com/re5-p...even-handle-title-screen-of-resident-evil-5/-
Sure the Wii ran Dead Rising, but how much scaling back did it take before it became a completely different game. By your logic, Xenoblade chronicles could run on the DS.
 

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So they found it incredibly easy to port a ps360 game to the less powerful 3DS but got too frustrated to finish porting to the Wii? http://nintendoeverything.com/re5-p...even-handle-title-screen-of-resident-evil-5/- Sure the Wii ran Dead Rising, but how much scaling back did it take before it became a completely different game. By your logic, Xenoblade chronicles could run on the DS.
Quite the opposite, but as I've said earlier, I pretty much finished talking - I've spoken my mind already. ;)
 

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So they found it incredibly easy to port a ps360 game to the less powerful 3DS but got too frustrated to finish porting to the Wii?
http://www.nintendolife.com/news/2012/01/capcom_had_resident_evil_5_running_on_3ds
http://nintendoeverything.com/re5-p...even-handle-title-screen-of-resident-evil-5/-
Sure the Wii ran Dead Rising, but how much scaling back did it take before it became a completely different game. By your logic, Xenoblade chronicles could run on the DS.

Your definition of "run" and their definition of "run" are obviously completely different. They never mentioned anything about the performance of RE5 on 3ds. Odds are, they quickly made a proof of concept and it worked out. They never said it ran at a playable speeds, had to patch bugs, reduce the graphics, etc. All they were wanted to know is if it works and how far the 3ds can be pushed.

It is like a developer saying s/he got Dolphin running on the 3DS and you think it is perfect, optimized, running at playable speeds with no issues/bugs.
 

MyJoyConRunsHot

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Your definition of "run" and their definition of "run" are obviously completely different. They never mentioned anything about the performance of RE5 on 3ds. Odds are, they quickly made a proof of concept and it worked out. They never said it ran at a playable speeds, had to patch bugs, reduce the graphics, etc. All they were wanted to know is if it works and how far the 3ds can be pushed.

It is like a developer saying s/he got Dolphin running on the 3DS and you think it is perfect, optimized, running at playable speeds with no issues/bugs.
I don't think you understand what they meant when they said they got it running non the 3DS. The entire point of testing RE5 on the 3DS was to see if it was a powerful enough platform for other games they were planning like Mercenaries 3D and Revelations. I don't even know how you managed arrived to the conclusion that Capcom ran a slow, buggy, blocky port, and then decided to port more console-level RE games to a platform that couldn't handle it well. Please go a read the story again.
 

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I don't think you understand what they meant when they said they got it running non the 3DS. The entire point of testing RE5 on the 3DS was to see if it was a powerful enough platform for other games they were planning like Mercenaries 3D and Revelations. I don't even know how you managed arrived to the conclusion that Capcom ran a slow, buggy, blocky port, and then decided to port more console-level RE games to a platform that couldn't handle it well. Please go a read the story again.
The idea was to use the assets they already have and use them to test MT Framework Lite on a new platform. There was no reason to develop new assets for a tech demo - they used assets they already had because it's more cost-effective.
 

MyJoyConRunsHot

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They ported the MT Framework over to the 3DS, then used a slightly scaled back version of RE5 to test to see if the hardware could run a console-level RE game. Mercenaries 3D and Revelations are evidence that it ran well.
 

MyJoyConRunsHot

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On another note...

The wiki just temporarily updated with this:
ARM11 Processor Core: ARM11 MPCore 3x 268MHz(~268123480 Hz) & 3x VFP Co-Processor
Ugh, does anyone know who the hacker is or wheather they have a blog following their work?
The twitters posted don't seem to be direct sources.
 

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