Hacking Why add anti-piracy measures to Devolution ?

[the_randomizer]

Devolution's AP is not just stopping "pirates", it is stopping some people who own retail discs from using their games.

No it's not. They can play their games just fine without Devolution.

O RLY? Then why are there so many people who use retail discs have trouble getting said discs to verify with Devolution?

You didn't read my post. They can still play the games just fine. All they need to do is stick the game in, go to the System Menu, and press Launch. Devolution didn't stop them from doing anything.

I was referring to people who have the retail disc and use it to verify the image. People have reported to use a real disc with the image and getting kicked out to the HBC. The retail disc never verifies properly and does nothing. See, even people who have real discs are getting screwed over.

How are they getting screwed over?

Because, some people can't play games with retail discs. Even some legit retail discs aren't getting verified by the program.

Are you saying that Devolution has stopped people's Wii's from reading retail discs rendering them unable to ever play their games again?
Or are you saying that they are simply unable to load their games from USB using Devolution and would be better served using DM?

No, it hasn't stopped the Wii itself from reading the discs, I said some images can't be verified by Devolution even when the disc is in good condition. Take SSBM and Rouge Leader for example, people are reporting that neither game disc can be verified by Devolution.

 

[JoostinOnline]

They aren't getting "screwed over", they are just can't use his program due to some bugs that he is surely working on. They aren't losing anything, because they can still play games from their discs, or use DM/DML to play backups.

 

[retKHAAAN]

In my case, if a retail disc does not authorize, Devolution locks up the Wii... no returning to HBC. That would actually be a bit better.

I have yet to see you post whether the discs were the least bit damaged/dirty or whether you've tried with any other drives including SSDs.

If you want help, do some debugging. Help tueidj help you.

@[member='the_randomizer']
So you're saying that you're merely complaining about an app (you're not obligated or even expected to use) rather than doing any sort of debugging to help get to the bottom of the issue?

 

[wiismodrome]

No, it hasn't stopped the Wii itself from reading the discs, I said some images can't be verified by Devolution even when the disc is in good condition. Take SSBM and Rouge Leader for example. Neither game disc can be verified by Devolution.

The developer's copy of Rogue Leader apparently works...

From what I gather SSBM has rendering issues at the moment anyway, so it is not much of a loss not being able to run it.

 

[the_randomizer]

Okay, that doesn't seem as confusing, and now, here's hoping the emulated memory card gets more reliable for Devolution. Then again, I'll wait till Dios Mios gets streaming audio support, as Crediar said he's working on it (not sure how that's possible outside Wii mode).

 

[retKHAAAN]

No, it hasn't stopped the Wii itself from reading the discs, I said some images can't be verified by Devolution even when the disc is in good condition. Take SSBM and Rouge Leader for example. Neither game disc can be verified by Devolution.

The developer's copy of Rogue Leader apparently works...

From what I gather SSBM has rendering issues at the moment anyway, so it is not much of a loss not being able to run it.

And according to the dev, the only SSBM version not working is v1.0 as a result of being compiled with an ancient SDK

 

[wiismodrome]

Okay, that doesn't seem as confusing, and now, here's hoping the emulated memory card gets more reliable for Devolution. Then again, I'll wait till Dios Mios gets streaming audio support, as Crediar said he's working on it (not sure how that's possible outside Wii mode).

Have people reported reliability issues with the memory card emulation? The only minor issue I had was that, on the first run, games reported that the card was corrupted and needed to be formatted. Seemed to work after that. However, since then I've been using Wiiflow which has an option to use a real memory card, which is much better for me anyway as my game saves are all stored on GC memory cards.

I'd really like to know more about the reasons why audio streaming has been such a problem and what is necessary to make it work. My guess is that once DM has audio streaming, there will not be much interest in Devolution for most users... unless people want future Wiimote support or some of the other fancy features which have yet to be implemented.

 

[Actinopterygian Melospiza]

Wow, this thread has gotten quite ridiculous. I for one am against the AP, but the other people arguing against it are(for the most part) morons and have gotten themselves in way to deep for them to admit they're being morons. In one respect, I couldn't care less about the AP because I own all the GC games that I care about playing, so if I can't use it with devolution I will just load it from the disc or use DM. But from a programmers perspective, it makes me kinda sad that tueidj has made the decision to include AP when a bit of critical thinking should lead one to realize that the cons of AP outweigh the pros(I made a post about it a several pages back).

It's been pointed out by both sides of the argument that if you want to pirate, or you can't use devolution for some other reason, there are alternatives such as DM/DML and whatnot; so the only thing the AP seems to be doing is pissing people off that would like to see a piece of software be even better then it already is. Maybe tueidj doesn't realize this or maybe he just thinks it's funny, i don't know, but as much respect for the guy i have as a dev i have the same about of disrespect for him as a person. His decision seems to have been made simply because it's what he wanted, not because it was the best choice. It reminds me of government officials making decisions based on their ideals instead of actually doing what is best.

Oh and please don't bring up how "he's the developer, so he can do what he wants," because that's obvious. Of course he can do what he wants, I'm not arguing against that in any way, but it doesn't mean I can't criticize his decisions if I think they were poor ones. I'm honestly not trying to bash or flame him, I just wish he would actually look at the issue more objectively instead of through his anti-pirate lenses.

 

[the_randomizer]

Wow, this thread has gotten quite ridiculous. I for one am against the AP, but the other people arguing against it are(for the most part) morons and have gotten themselves in way to deep for them to admit they're being morons. In one respect, I couldn't care less about the AP because I own all the GC games that I care about playing, so if I can't use it with devolution I will just load it from the disc or use DM. But from a programmers perspective, it makes me kinda sad that tueidj has made the decision to include AP when a bit of critical thinking should lead one to realize that the cons of AP outweigh the pros(I made a post about it a several pages back).

It's been pointed out by both sides of the argument that if you want to pirate, or you can't use devolution for some other reason, there are alternatives such as DM/DML and whatnot; so the only thing the AP seems to be doing is pissing people off that would like to see a piece of software be even better then it already is. Maybe tueidj doesn't realize this or maybe he just thinks it's funny, i don't know, but as much respect for the guy i have as a dev i have the same about of disrespect for him as a person. His decision seems to have been made simply because it's what he wanted, not because it was the best choice. It reminds me of government officials making decisions based on their ideals instead of actually doing what is best.

Oh and please don't bring up how "he's the developer, so he can do what he wants," because that's obvious. Of course he can do what he wants, I'm not arguing against that in any way, but it doesn't mean I can't criticize his decisions if I think they were poor ones. I'm honestly not trying to bash or flame him, I just wish he would actually look at the issue more objectively instead of through his anti-pirate lenses.

Exactly, and while I incontrovertibly added unnecessary fuel to the fire by acting like an a** (which is something I need to apologize for), I agree with your stance wholeheartedly. The fact he lumps legit user into the same pile as pirates is something I find to be very demeaning, Heck, from a programmer's standpoint, he's a absolute genius, being able to do what Nintendo never thought of doing; creating an extremely difficult, if not impossible-to-crack AP system. But as a person, he seems apathetic to other peoples' needs, seemingly tossing them aside as one would a bag of moldy tangerines. Maybe he is just showing off the potentialities of Wii hacking, doing what many thought to be possible, but like you said, once Dios Mios adds audio streaming, the people who originally wanted to use Devolution will use DM instead. That alone very well might cause tueidj to rage-quit the whole homebrew scene altogether, since people will refuse to use the program he spent so long coding for. Then again, both programs might end up complementing each other harmoniously, and all animosity that was previously felt will be neutralized.

 

[JoostinOnline]

The fact he lumps legit user into the same pile as pirates is something I find to be very demeaning,

How else is he supposed to (mostly) prevent piracy through his app?

 

[the_randomizer]

The fact he lumps legit user into the same pile as pirates is something I find to be very demeaning,

How else is he supposed to (mostly) prevent piracy through his app?

By not adding AP in the first place; AP is a losing battle, it will never be eradicated...But, *sigh* like what's been said a million times over, it's his prerogative to add such a feature. I'm waiting until DM(L) adds audio streaming...who knows how long that will be. Why legit users (esp. those with scratched discs, dead DVD-ROM drive, etc) have to suffer is beyond me.

 

[nokillmonkeys]

How else is he supposed to (mostly) prevent piracy through his app?

Punishing legitimate users to punish the pirates is not the proper action. That is what he's doing: punishing legitimate users. Regardless of whether they have other options or not is beside the point; tueidj specifically coded a restriction into his application to prevent pirates and some legitimate users alike from using it. That's a punishment: "OK class, everybody can have an ice cream cone if they'd like, except you, you, and you".

 

[stanleyopar2000]

what about Dolphin?....

and maybe they don't want to wind up like BLEEM?...(oh god...nostalgia)

 

[g4jek8j54]

but like you said, once Dios Mios adds audio streaming, the people who originally wanted to use Devolution will use DM instead.

http://gbatemp.net/topic/322284-devolution/

WON'T: It's not going to be a warez loader. You will need to own (or at least possess) the games you wish to run. I don't plan to ask for any donations, although at some point if there's a particular game that someone wants fixed I might have to insist they provide it or at least the means for me to get it; I'm not going to fork out for a copy of MGS from my own pocket, for example.

Ever since he announced this project in March, he has stated that there would be anti-piracy protection in place, and has never hinted otherwise. If DIOS-MIOS is the better option, then why keep complaining about Devolution?

That alone very well might cause tueidj to rage-quit the whole homebrew scene altogether, since people will refuse to use the program he spent so long coding for.

How do you know that "people will refuse to use the program he spent so long coding for?" I, for one, like the program better than DIOS-MIOS (although DIOS-MIOS is a great project as well), since it doesn't require a modified MIOS or anything like that. Also, how do you know that he cares if other people use it or not? It seems that if he were doing this solely for popularity, he wouldn't have added the anti-piracy protection in the first place.

 

[the_randomizer]

what about Dolphin?....

and maybe they don't want to wind up like BLEEM?...(oh god...nostalgia)

Emulators are legal under US law since hardware can't be copyrighted. It only gets illegal when you download BIOS files and not extract them yourself. ISO images, and ROMs, well that's another story. Oddly enough, Bleem! won all legal battles against Sony, they just ran out of money and had to shut down, the problem is they tried to sell an emulator. With Devolution, AP is a double-edged sword, it keeps out the pirates but at the same time, it slaughters legitimate users. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

but like you said, once Dios Mios adds audio streaming, the people who originally wanted to use Devolution will use DM instead.

http://gbatemp.net/t...284-devolution/

WON'T: It's not going to be a warez loader. You will need to own (or at least possess) the games you wish to run. I don't plan to ask for any donations, although at some point if there's a particular game that someone wants fixed I might have to insist they provide it or at least the means for me to get it; I'm not going to fork out for a copy of MGS from my own pocket, for example.

Ever since he announced this project in March, he has stated that there would be anti-piracy protection in place, and has never hinted otherwise. If DIOS-MIOS is the better option, then why keep complaining about Devolution?

That alone very well might cause tueidj to rage-quit the whole homebrew scene altogether, since people will refuse to use the program he spent so long coding for.

How do you know that "people will refuse to use the program he spent so long coding for?" I, for one, like the program better than DIOS-MIOS (although DIOS-MIOS is a great project as well), since it doesn't require a modified MIOS or anything like that. Also, how do you know that he cares if other people use it or not? It seems that if he were doing this solely for popularity, he wouldn't have added the anti-piracy protection in the first place.

I don't know, I just said that because I've seen it happen one too many times with emulators. Take for instance Bsnes versus Snes9x, the author, Byuu was bitching about people wanting to use Snes9x more than his precious emulator, which requires you to dump files for games that use special chips and BIOS files for Super Gameboy/GBA emulation. Very reminiscent of Devolution is it not? If his deciding to add AP was solely for getting more popular, he sure as heck achieved that in less than a week.

 

[stanleyopar2000]

if it gets too popular...US law doesn't mean shit, in the end..the powers that be, will squash anything that offends them. In these days and times anyway.

ala: unquestioned and almighty "Cease and Desist?"...

maybe they don't want to go that route?

on a side note...LOL any AP patch yet??

 

[the_randomizer]

if it gets too popular...US law doesn't mean shit, in the end..the powers that be, will squash anything that offends them. In these days and times anyway.

ala: unquestioned and almighty "Cease and Desist?"...

maybe they don't want to go that route?

on a side note...LOL any AP patch yet??

Maybe when Hell freezes over, or if someone uses brute force to crack it, whichever comes first. Oh, and C&D orders aren't likely with emulators.

 

[Ace Overclocked]

if it gets too popular...US law doesn't mean shit, in the end..the powers that be, will squash anything that offends them. In these days and times anyway.

ala: unquestioned and almighty "Cease and Desist?"...

maybe they don't want to go that route?

on a side note...LOL any AP patch yet??

Maybe when Hell freezes over, or if someone uses brute force to crack it, whichever comes first. Oh, and C&D orders aren't likely with emulators.

Let's just wait for acekard team twiizers to release their new firmware, will take about 2 months!

 

[JoostinOnline]

How else is he supposed to (mostly) prevent piracy through his app?

Punishing legitimate users to punish the pirates is not the proper action. That is what he's doing: punishing legitimate users. Regardless of whether they have other options or not is beside the point; tueidj specifically coded a restriction into his application to prevent pirates and some legitimate users alike from using it. That's a punishment: "OK class, everybody can have an ice cream cone if they'd like, except you, you, and you".

Don't be ridiculous. He isn't punishing anyone. He also didn't code it to not work for legitimate users, it just has some bugs.

 

[air2004]

It is true that there are some AP measures, but at the same time, the source for the loader is openly available. Anyone can go ahead and remove them in their build, provided that they have the skill to do so.

The developer doesn't want his work to be used in illegal activities - if you want to then it's your choice and you can go on ahead and start changing the code. The original source includes AP measures, but that doesn't mean that a modded version won't surface.

Isn't what the devolper did illeagal ?