Hacking Why add anti-piracy measures to Devolution ?

[reprep]

The same thing with DRM. I hate when people stupidly defend AP measures and all they say is "pirates want everything free"

I buy an e-book from an online seller and i can only read it on my PC. I can't transfer it to my e-reader (kindle) because of DRM restrictions. And when i try to circumvent, i always become the "you pirate, you want everything free"

I have my PS3 at cfw 3.55, because i am using MultiMAN to stream 5.1 lossless audio to my Home Theater as AVCHD and i can't play original new games (which i paid) and i am always said "you pirate, you want everything free"

I invested in game industry a lot, more than you people who NEVER EVER pirated anything.

Please stop defending AP measures. They are meant for screwing customers, not for defending poor old companies which barely earn enough to feed their families.

 

[tmv_josue]

Dumbest post of the month, hands down.

I know . Is not there a valid excuse in this thread to remove the AP

 

[Excelsiior]

Except People not knowing that new Wiis can't play GC Games, no one got the right to complain about tueidjs decision.

GC Games are cheap as hell nowadays. The ones I newly bought where only about 5 - 10 €. Except PSO 1+2 (15€) and FFCC (25€).

 

[Hielkenator]

There's nothing to gain for the dev with his AP measure. Unless He want to (ap)prove to nintendo he can do this.
Anyway, it's a achievement non the less. I don't mind it at all. Good coding there....ahem.

But I can understand that poeple think he's screwing both sides, the user and nintendo.
He's in the middle ( as if nintendo would care for him, lol ).
Nice to have that power.... shame that he really belongs to the "us" no matter how you look at it.
So in the end it does'nt matter at all. He wins because it's his application.

 

[Taleweaver]

The same thing with DRM. I hate when people stupidly defend AP measures and all they say is "pirates want everything free"

Fair point. Of course, I could counter it with "pirates...and people who treat their discs in sloppy ways", but I'll give you a reason nobody here's given so far.

Ease of troubleshooting.

Come to think of it, that's probably a reason why dios mios lite takes so long. Over there, "a disc" can be lots of things. A game can be trimmed or not. The download can be corrupted or not. Or altered because of data transfer, switching between partition types and/or compression*. Oh, and it can be aligned to 32K or not. Or someone on the internet decided to be an asshole and put a bunch of garbage data online under the name of a gamecube game.
So what happens when a game doesn't work? First impression: blame the game loader. The validity of the image is never, ever questioned, even though it has just the same amount of chance to be wrong to begin with.
Now...take devolution. Hielkenator dumped Starfox adventures. So did I. We're both from Europe, so we have the same image. Pretty much guaranteed down to the last byte. Devolution runs under IOS58, so we'll run it the same way.
This may sound obvious, but it's very important. It means that tueidj doesn't have to worry about fucked up images being used. Provided he can find the same game, he can replicate the problem directly. And thus fix it.




*I know: this SHOULDN'T occur. But take it from a veteran that "shouldn't" occur tend to happen.

 

[JoostinOnline]

Again, it's not about proving anything to anyone. He just doesn't want his work being related to committing crimes. You may be comfortable with breaking the law, but he doesn't want to be a part of it.

 

[Hielkenator]

Again, it's not about proving anything to anyone. He just doesn't want his work being related to committing crimes. You may be comfortable with breaking the law, but he doesn't want to be a part of it.

Would he would get away by selling devolution then?
Law technically speaking offcourse?

 

[tmv_josue]

I understand why whatshisname put AP on it, but I think it will gain him a lot of haters, I'm not a fan of the AP measures as in a way it kinda defeats the point of loaders.

I think him doesn't matter gain a lot of haters, and, how it defeats the point of the loaders? It only check once the original disc... come on.

 

[reprep]

The same thing with DRM. I hate when people stupidly defend AP measures and all they say is "pirates want everything free"

Fair point. Of course, I could counter it with "pirates...and people who treat their discs in sloppy ways", but I'll give you a reason nobody here's given so far.

Ease of troubleshooting.

Come to think of it, that's probably a reason why dios mios lite takes so long. Over there, "a disc" can be lots of things. A game can be trimmed or not. The download can be corrupted or not. Or altered because of data transfer, switching between partition types and/or compression*. Oh, and it can be aligned to 32K or not. Or someone on the internet decided to be an asshole and put a bunch of garbage data online under the name of a gamecube game.
So what happens when a game doesn't work? First impression: blame the game loader. The validity of the image is never, ever questioned, even though it has just the same amount of chance to be wrong to begin with.
Now...take devolution. Hielkenator dumped Starfox adventures. So did I. We're both from Europe, so we have the same image. Pretty much guaranteed down to the last byte. Devolution runs under IOS58, so we'll run it the same way.
This may sound obvious, but it's very important. It means that tueidj doesn't have to worry about fucked up images being used. Provided he can find the same game, he can replicate the problem directly. And thus fix it.




*I know: this SHOULDN'T occur. But take it from a veteran that "shouldn't" occur tend to happen.

There are easier ways to validate this.

We know the valid hashes of perfectly ripped games. The loader may just calculate the hash of the iso you provided, compare it with the real hash from the database. If it matches, it is alright. If not the loader might throw a message like "the hash doesn't match, do you still want to continue?".

 

[Hielkenator]

Again, it's not about proving anything to anyone. He just doesn't want his work being related to committing crimes. You may be comfortable with breaking the law, but he doesn't want to be a part of it.

Would he would get away by selling devolution then?
Law technically speaking offcourse?
Don't forget he IS part of the hardcore community nevertheless.

---

 

[reprep]

Again, it's not about proving anything to anyone. He just doesn't want his work being related to committing crimes. You may be comfortable with breaking the law, but he doesn't want to be a part of it.

No offence, but do you think usb loader gx, wiiflow, open ps2 loader, and all (i mean all) emulators on pc including dolphin are breaking the law (or being part of breaking the law) as they aren't doing the check devolution does?

 

[JoostinOnline]

Again, it's not about proving anything to anyone. He just doesn't want his work being related to committing crimes. You may be comfortable with breaking the law, but he doesn't want to be a part of it.

Would he would get away by selling devolution then?
Law technically speaking offcourse?

What does that have to do with anything?

@reprep: Lol, not having AP doesn't make an app illegal.

 

[Hielkenator]

Again, it's not about proving anything to anyone. He just doesn't want his work being related to committing crimes. You may be comfortable with breaking the law, but he doesn't want to be a part of it.

No offence, but do you think usb loader gx, wiiflow, open ps2 loader, and all (i mean all) emulators on pc including dolphin are breaking the law (or being part of breaking the law) as they aren't doing the check devolution does?

It all about "control"....

 

[Deleted-185407]

I honestly don't see any problem with figuring how how the anti-piracy works and how it could be bypassed. As a programmer, it'd be a very educational experience for me and would actually enhance my understanding of security and byte-code. It's not like we're actually distributing or posting how to obtain any illegal content here, so I fail to see the reason why people having silly arguments is more legitimate than talking about something educational and constructive. If tueidj has a problem with it, then he should mature up and understand that this discussion will also benefit him as well. The majority of people hack for curiousity and learning purposes, not for piracy purposes. As mentioned plenty of times before, pirates can pirate anyways at the moment using DIOS MIOS. Us programmers on the other hand want just want to try see if we can accomplish something.

@WiiBricker While I don't have any hardware to test with currently, am I correct in reading that both of the DVV files work regardless of their differences? If so, we can assume that the physical location of the file on the disk isn't an input, and we can assume that the hash-data is being encrypted with a random salt (or something similar). We can also assume that the random value is actually in the DVV file as well (since you can't verify the data without storing your salt).

Bare in mind, I know nothing about Wii hardware/software/APIs, so I'm just completely speculating here.

There's two ways as far as I'm aware one can bypass the security of an application. The first way is to actually modify the executable itself, putting in NOP commands in relevant locations. The problem with this method is though, is that debugging the code is difficult without the necessary hardware, and that you still need a strong knowledge of PPC assembly code. Would you be better off just trying to make Devolution from scratch (the code base would be smaller cause you wouldn't have complicated AP checks)? Does Devolution run on a PC emulator? Check what debugging options you have available and step through the code and see what's happening.

As for the other method, you could try spoof the inputs that Devolution uses, which I assume would be easier to do. We already know a couple of the obvious inputs, which is a hash of the original 1:1 ISO. We also know that another input is something random. I'm assuming that the DVV files don't work on multiple Wiis, therefore whatever information is unique to a specific Wii, we can assume that that is also an input. How does Devolution grab information about the Wii hardware? Could a custom IOS or similar be used to spoof return values? What hardware-unique information can the PPC processor even access? There's a lot of questions that need to be answered before this approach can even be taken, and DVV files would also have to be generated by someone first and then shared. Another problem is that if spoofing information does work, then you need to constantly change your code (or implement it cleverly) so that it returns the correct values for a specific DVV. While this could prove messy for the end-user, the goal isn't to make the end-user happy, but instead to try see if there's a way to bypass the security.

If I had the time, it would be a fun challenge. It's always enjoyable trying to break other people's code and it's an excellent form of testing.

 

[reprep]

@[member='JoostinOnline']:

I respect the author of this app just as you. It is of course his right to make some people stop using his app.

All i am criticizing is your approach.

"Again, it's not about proving anything to anyone. He just doesn't want his work being related to committing crimes. You may be comfortable with breaking the law, but he doesn't want to be a part of it."

I am not comfortable with breaking the law. With my previous posts, i explained why AP circumventions might not always be breaking the law.

Your thinking is what i am against. Circumventing AP is not always breaking law or committing crime. That is what big companies are trying to sell us to make us purchase their products multiple times.

 

[JoostinOnline]

I am not comfortable with breaking the law. With my previous posts, i explained why AP circumventions might not always be breaking the law.

That comment wasn't directed at you, just at people in general (thus the "may").

 

[Hielkenator]

Again, it's not about proving anything to anyone. He just doesn't want his work being related to committing crimes. You may be comfortable with breaking the law, but he doesn't want to be a part of it.

Would he would get away by selling devolution then?
Law technically speaking offcourse?

What does that have to do with anything?

@[member='reprep']: Lol, not having AP doesn't make an app illegal.

Well if he could sell devolution it would really be "his".
He in a corner just like the "pirates" that complain about his implemented AP measures.
The only way the maintain control/ have ownage/ is to implement this measure.
It's a pshycological thing, I think.
If he would'nt do this, he'll loose that little piece of control he has over the "users'
Closed source is a method to keep it to himself also on the dev's side off things.

HE has control, and he likes it.
But without the community or nintendo, he would not have had this at all.
in the end he has "nothing" wich is his main goal to be secure of any lawsuits.
it's not AP in the line of piracy at all. It's to protect himself.
He's only preventing digital piracy, e.g. usage of internet downloads.

 

[smf]

Again, it's not about proving anything to anyone. He just doesn't want his work being related to committing crimes. You may be comfortable with breaking the law, but he doesn't want to be a part of it.

You can easily commit a crime using devolution, that just leaves doing it for the publicity or because he wants to annoy people.

 

[JoostinOnline]

Again, it's not about proving anything to anyone. He just doesn't want his work being related to committing crimes. You may be comfortable with breaking the law, but he doesn't want to be a part of it.

You can easily commit a crime using devolution, that just leaves doing it for the publicity or because he wants to annoy people.

How?

 

[Hielkenator]

Again, it's not about proving anything to anyone. He just doesn't want his work being related to committing crimes. You may be comfortable with breaking the law, but he doesn't want to be a part of it.

You can easily commit a crime using devolution, that just leaves doing it for the publicity or because he wants to annoy people.

How?

Letting people rent or lend your games. Can be very profitable.
Easy way to get money out of pirating by using his app.
He really is commiting to a whole new market.
So his anti-piracy is rather weak if you ask me.
There I cracked it, in the most simple way you can and he provided all the tools to do it.