You are making the cardinal mistake of all atheists - mixing up religion and science. Religion is not scientific, there is no burden of proof required, that's not the point of religion to begin with.
What is the purpose of religion?
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Then I rest my case. If truths are to be taken without any means of testing or evidence and on blind faith alone, for which no explanation is required, the conversation becomes entirely pointless. You have just proven that this form of truth seeking has no merit whatsoever.
What truths do you mean? Religion is not based on truths in the scientific sense of the word - religions are based on metaphores which serve the purpose of self-improvement of the followers. Religion does not explain the world in testable terms - we have science for that. Moreover, treating religions as science entails that some religions are better than others just like some scientific theories have more proof behind them than others, when that's not the case. Again, religions are sets of principles, moral lessons, not scientific evidence towards anything.
Well you just said it there didn't you? We have science for explaining the world and the cosmos but religion for self-improvement/morality (which I disagree with and have given my response to on the previous page). If you are separating the two in their purpose, why do you claim that religion then explains the universe? You can't just flip flop around stating that a God or gods are responsible for the creation of the Universe, then say that science explains the material world and religion is for morality. Pick a position and stick with it good sir.
I really wish more religious people actually took the time to consider their belief system as mythological metaphors but when I keep hearing them say it's the only absolute truth, Jesus is lord of the entire universe and etc, that says otherwise.
You and me both - religion should be reserved to the spiritual realm wheras explaining the rules governing the world we live in should be left to science. God/s is/are the Lord/s of the entire universe in the sense of its creation, but that's that. Many people choose to take religion literally, and that never ends well. On the other hand, some choose to "educate" religious people by going out of their way to disprove the existence of God/Gods when this is impossible by proxy - faith and proof rarely go together.
People whom I call Aggressive Atheists tend to coin religion as delusional - if believing in a higher order in the world and the moral principles of being truthful, not killing others etc. is delusional then I am comfortable in my delusion, thank you very much.
Things would probably go much smoother if we didn't butt into each other's business and get on with our lives instead of making it our priority to change the beliefs of other parties at all costs - Aggressive Atheism is as bad as religious extremism.
Predominantly, religions exist as mere postulations concerning the order and purpose of the universe. A wise religion will admit that there is no certainty in their particular postulations, but contend that something must exist beyond the scope of our universe. If you disagree with that assertion you are a nihilist; congratulations your life is meaningless.
@Foxi4, if you aren't already familiar with Plato and Spinoza, you should read up on them. They are very in line with your own theological views. (As am I, for whatever that is worth.)
@Foxi4, if you aren't already familiar with Plato and Spinoza, you should read up on them. They are very in line with your own theological views. (As am I, for whatever that is worth.)
You can say I'm religious, but I actually came up with my own religion. I've never given much details about my beliefs, but the basic principles is that something in the realistic/transient universe can be defined as the universally most powerful object. I don't know what that is, I don't know if I can communicate with it, I don't know it's origins or if it can live forever or even living. I don't know if I will gain eternal life in some stupid place or burn in hell in another place. I don't know if this object converges to a major religion like Christianity. What I do know is at this moment, something can fit that definition and that's what I follow.
I used to be Christian, almost hardcore Christian. I went to Church every week with my family. This specific Church made me hate life more and more as I grew up through middle school. I often stared at the stars looking for something out there as if I would be able to see God. As I kept growing through this Church, me as a middle schooler was able to see how fake these people were. I hit a turning point at the beginning of high school. I kept going to Church, hung out with my family and other church doers. However, something evil grew into me. Everyone there had this sense of moral superiority over people who didn't go to this Church. Even other Christians who visited were talked down to as if their Church was not good enough. I continued going to this Church up until my first year in college. I was able to see what these people were, they were fake. I listened week after week of people who said "My car broke down, it could have turned out very bad, but God made traffic light this day letting me get out safely"and things like "I did something bad like _____ for that I am sorry God."
These people devoted their life like this lifestyle. I no longer saw friends or family. I saw a cult. I saw a cult who has turned their own mind against themselves. They believe what they want and they feel morally superior no matter what they think. My Dad never went back to Church as a kid after peeing on a nuns desk... My aunt told me and my cousins one day that Jesus was going to come back and we would have a war with the demons on earth. She told me that my dad was not going to be on our side. My cousins were convinced that my Dad was the anti-christ.
Everytime I went to any other Church outside my Church, I found the same people but with different flavor. I began to realize, it was not just the Christians I grew up with, but on average all of the Christians are just wrapped differently but have the same corrupt background. I began to realize that whatever this motivational speaker said (the pastor) they would follow without even questioning. For example, my cousins through out the last 6-7 years have predicted when the world was going to end and it never does. They think Jesus is going to come back and the rapture is going to happen..
---
The sad part is, he's not alone. You may be a Christian and you may say, not all Christians are like that. But trust me, you are not much different. You and that corrupt temple pushed me to who I am today.
So when you say that religion does not have any negative influences... look at my attitude towards life and tell me how that has not been influenced by my religious background.
I used to be Christian, almost hardcore Christian. I went to Church every week with my family. This specific Church made me hate life more and more as I grew up through middle school. I often stared at the stars looking for something out there as if I would be able to see God. As I kept growing through this Church, me as a middle schooler was able to see how fake these people were. I hit a turning point at the beginning of high school. I kept going to Church, hung out with my family and other church doers. However, something evil grew into me. Everyone there had this sense of moral superiority over people who didn't go to this Church. Even other Christians who visited were talked down to as if their Church was not good enough. I continued going to this Church up until my first year in college. I was able to see what these people were, they were fake. I listened week after week of people who said "My car broke down, it could have turned out very bad, but God made traffic light this day letting me get out safely"and things like "I did something bad like _____ for that I am sorry God."
These people devoted their life like this lifestyle. I no longer saw friends or family. I saw a cult. I saw a cult who has turned their own mind against themselves. They believe what they want and they feel morally superior no matter what they think. My Dad never went back to Church as a kid after peeing on a nuns desk... My aunt told me and my cousins one day that Jesus was going to come back and we would have a war with the demons on earth. She told me that my dad was not going to be on our side. My cousins were convinced that my Dad was the anti-christ.
Everytime I went to any other Church outside my Church, I found the same people but with different flavor. I began to realize, it was not just the Christians I grew up with, but on average all of the Christians are just wrapped differently but have the same corrupt background. I began to realize that whatever this motivational speaker said (the pastor) they would follow without even questioning. For example, my cousins through out the last 6-7 years have predicted when the world was going to end and it never does. They think Jesus is going to come back and the rapture is going to happen..
---
The sad part is, he's not alone. You may be a Christian and you may say, not all Christians are like that. But trust me, you are not much different. You and that corrupt temple pushed me to who I am today.
So when you say that religion does not have any negative influences... look at my attitude towards life and tell me how that has not been influenced by my religious background.
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Most religions started out as a way of teaching people basic norms and values through metaphors, and to give them a sense of purpose when they were feeling like shit.
Then (in the case of chistianity) the romans started to use it as a tool to keep the people docile.
Nowadays there are basically two groups of religious people: idiots who take their religion way too seriously (westboro baptist church comes to mind) and people who see their religion for what it was originally meant to be and take the whole thing with a grain of salt. The latter also tend to be the ones who just find mental support in their religion, instead of the xenophobia that the former group seems to find.
Then (in the case of chistianity) the romans started to use it as a tool to keep the people docile.
Nowadays there are basically two groups of religious people: idiots who take their religion way too seriously (westboro baptist church comes to mind) and people who see their religion for what it was originally meant to be and take the whole thing with a grain of salt. The latter also tend to be the ones who just find mental support in their religion, instead of the xenophobia that the former group seems to find.
Incoming long reply but I would ask that you read it as I've got something to say about all the points you've raised.
First, you say "Aggressive Atheism" is bad as religious extremism. That's a load of hogwash. We atheists, agnostics and even deists (not to be confused with theists) do not fly ourselves into buildings believing that murdering innocents is a just cause and that we will receive 72 virgins from a heavenly dictator. We don't fight over holy land because no land is holy, all land is simply land. We don't start decades and centuries of inquisition where we burn, mutilate, torture and kill anyone that may have the slightest shroud of doubt in something we believe (or don't believe in the atheist case). So again, tell me how a non believer is as bad as people that are determined to kill you and see the downfall of your nation.
Another point I would like to raise is about conversion. I don't do this to deconvert, that would be as preposterous as those pesty Jehovah witnesses that bother me every month. No, I do this because I like to engage in open dialogue and don't see religion as something great, something sacred. It seems to have become oddly common place to treat religious belief with a veil of invulnerability. To this I say, it should be no different from criticizing a politician and his political beliefs. No belief is sacred and above scrutiny and religion should not be treated as something above all others.
Lastly, religion is not required for morality and spirituality. It's time that the religious stop thinking these two are exclusive to them especially considering how wrong it can go. I stopped being a Muslim when I was 10 years old, rather, I was probably never Muslim to begin with. I may have believed in God for about 3 months before thinking it didn't make any sense. I was never indoctrinated by my parents in my youth yet I've known not to kill, not to steal or to use violence my entire life. There are better ways to build morality, we have philosophy and logical reasoning. Religion is not required and it certainly does not own the domain of morality. It also does not exclusively own spirituality. When I looked into the clear night sky and saw the stars and the constellations and felt greater than myself, part of something truly enormous and wonderful, I didn't think, oh, this feeling must be from God and I still don't whenever I look at the natural beauty of this world and the universe. When I listen to a piece of music or look at art and feel moved and greater than myself, it's not because of God or religion, I too have spirituality. Religion has no claim on it and it shouldn't. Religion is one way to go about it but I don't think it's a good one or one that is required in this day and age, there are far better ways.
No idea what the purpose of religion is but it seems like most people need it. You have the new religion of phony global warming. These people are just as silly as the people they look down their nose at who thing they know when the world will end and Jesus comes back.
The original purpose was to make sense of the world is what we have before science came along for some reason we still use religion even do original purpose is lost seen how science works better
In all honesty, I don't classify myself as an atheist. But I also do not acknowledge a specific Deity. You see, In my own personal opinion, I do not believe that once we die, it is the end. Rather, I choose to believe (and call me trippy if you want, but I seriously believe this) that time is looped.
Many scientists (I believe Einstein was one) have said that Time is circular. Therefore, the time frame you and I are born into right now, is our own Time Frame. I Believe when we Die, we do not Reincarnate or go to a paradise. Rather, we start the same life all over again. But we do not realize it. We do not notice it. For all you know, this could be the 18th time this topic has been brought up. This topic could have been in 18 lifetimes, and we wouldn't even realize it!
The concept is called Eternal Return
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_return
If you'd like to read up on, you can.
Many scientists (I believe Einstein was one) have said that Time is circular. Therefore, the time frame you and I are born into right now, is our own Time Frame. I Believe when we Die, we do not Reincarnate or go to a paradise. Rather, we start the same life all over again. But we do not realize it. We do not notice it. For all you know, this could be the 18th time this topic has been brought up. This topic could have been in 18 lifetimes, and we wouldn't even realize it!
The concept is called Eternal Return
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_return
If you'd like to read up on, you can.
I always raise an eyebrow when I hear someone say that it isn't required today. If a part of religion is a belief in something bigger, or greater than us, then it is and will always be relevant no matter the age. Since we have no way of actually proving or disproving the existence of an omnipotent being, then it shall always be relevant. If it is false, then yes, it is irrelevant. But if as long as there are people (like me) who believe that there is a God then it will always be relevant and required. Saying it isn't required in this day and age is throwing away something that has the possibility of being truth.
its a means of social control the "chosen people" use to keep everyone else(goy) stupid ,dumb down and oppressed,so they rule over the rest of us and keep us down ,(well the abrahamic ones anyway) just like the media and television ,media and religion are their 2 main means of control
It's not required for morality or spirituality because it has no exclusive hold on the subject matter, there are different and I think better ways to approach those two subjects. That was my point in regards to it being not necessary in this day and age in that specific context.
This is 100% correct. However, there is one major piece of the puzzle you're not recognizing. Religions may be "sets of principles, moral lessons" but they are taught and followed literally. They have figureheads whom are worshipped based on very literal beliefs in good/evil, moral/immoral, and historical figures.
I for one don't care either way. I was raised Catholic; went to Catholic schools from Kindergarten through high school graduation, attended mass twice a week for those 13 years. I believe it really was instrumental in my development as a member of society, husband, father, friend... It was late in high school before I finally started asking questions. I would never tell someone they are wrong, ignorant, incapable of dealing, gullible, etc... based on their beliefs. I just chose to go my own way understanding that the most basic foundation of nearly all religions is to treat others as you'd like to be treated. All religion has a place and serves a purpose. Absence of proof is not proof of absence.
If something has odds of 'pretty much non-existant' then, given the absolutely mind-bogglingly huge area and epic amount of time in the universe, it will almost certainly happen.
The odds of you winning the lottery are tiny. The odds of SOMEONE winning the lottery are not.
Religion isn't about 'finding answers' it's absolutely the opposite. It's about starting with the answers and then trying to fit the questions around them.
Oh man
When Engert finds this thread, it's going to be the thread of year.
When Engert finds this thread, it's going to be the thread of year.
Because so many Christians, Buddhists, Jews etc. fly themselves into buildings, right? No, religion is not at fault all by itself here - it's the misuse of religion as a political tool that it, and it was the same in the Cursades. People who "fly themselves into buildings" do it for a cause, religion is only misused to condition them, brainwash them in a way. Islam, when you go down to the basics, is a religion of peace - it's the extremist preachers that twist it. In any case, that's not the sense I meant and you know it - what I meant was that pushing Atheism on others is just as bad as pushing religion on others.
By no means, but that was not my original point - my point was that going out of your way to disprove the existence of God/s simply goes to show a lack of tolerance and understanding rather than enlightenment like many tend to believe. Of course religious beliefs should be subject to criticism as religions should change and evolve with time just like everything else.
Good for you, I'm all for enjoying who you are. If you found your way of life, that's great. As for religion being required of not for morality and spirituality, I mentioned it as a tool, not a requirement.
The probability of "something" being created out of "nothing" is zero, and yet it happened - we exist. Wrap your head around that.
The odds of winning a lottery when there is no lottery are zero, and yet we won the lottery.
Religion isn't about starting with the answers and trying to fit the questions around them, it's about establishing moral and spiritual principles for people to follow and at the same time, attempt to aproximate an answer to questions that have no answers.
See? We can both use slogans!
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