Roe V Wade has been repealed

[Lacius]

All that's happened is it's now the decision of each state

Just because the states are the ones taking away civil rights/bodily autonomy rights doesn't mean it's somehow a good thing.

States have also criminalized oral sex, interracial marriage, contraception, etc., and it took the courts to undo that.

if you don't like the laws of the state you live in you can always move to another state where you prefer the laws.

That's easier said than done for people who don't have the money or convenience to be able to move states. A person's right to bodily autonomy shouldn't depend on their ZIP code, lol.

 

[MikaDubbz]

At what point does that fertilised egg that is a growing baby become a baby, the moment of fetilisation or after 9 weeks, what about 8 weeks and 6 days? The thing is, at some point the egg is classed as a human, where do you draw the line? Nobody can stop a women going to a place where abortion is legal - you can have the abortion there, or you can just not have sex, or use contraception, the morning after pill etc - there's lots of choices available.

See the fun part about trying to split these hairs is that they don't' even matter anymore. They said all abortion is illegal, be it when they're a fetus or just a newly fertilized egg. So while we could dwell on these questions, they make no difference to the outcome. Though it is clearly wrong to label all abortions as the murder of babies (at negative X months old at that), when many abortions are just the dropping of a fertilized egg.

 

[mrdude]

They never got one at any point because they don't exist. Only people who believe in mad shit like talking snakes, dude's with donkey penises, rings-within-rings covered in eyes and not eating shellfish or wearing mixed fabrics think there's a magic ghost inside them. I guess the US christian right keep forgetting not only is there a recipe for inducing an abortion in the bible but god is pretty cool with real child murder as opposed to terminating a fetus (Happy is the one who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks. -Psalm 137:9).

What makes a person a person then? What is it about you tha's different from me, or your mum? Do you think nobody has a soul? or is it something else that makes people different - if so what do you call that. If someone you love dies why are you upset?

 

[mrdude]

Just because the states are the ones taking away civil rights/bodily autonomy rights doesn't mean it's somehow a good thing.

States have also criminalized oral sex, interracial marriage, contraception, etc., and it took the courts to undo that.


That's easier said than done for people who don't have the money or convenience to be able to move states. A person's right to bodily autonomy shouldn't depend on their ZIP code, lol.

If you don't have the money to go and visit another state - you really shouldn't be putting yourself in a position where you have unprotected sex, and if you do you should take the pill, the morning after pill and make sure the person you're having sex with is wearing a condom.

 

[mrdude]

I guess we should all consider ourselves 9 months older than we really are too. I mean if it's murder, you can't have been killed at negative 8 months years old.

So if you are a murderer and you murder an 8 month pregnant woman, in a civilised country you are murdering an unborn child and a woman - is this not the case, or do you only class the women as the one that would have been murdered and the child didn't matter because it wasn't born yet?

 

[mrdude]

K. What was wrong with the system we already had? Why go back on a decision and in turn go against the very idea of the separation of church and state?

All that's been done is it's now the states decision to make it's own laws and not the governments.

 

[DoctorBagPhD]

If someone you love dies why are you upset?

Because my brain released prolactin, adrenocorticotropic hormone, and Leu-enkephalin among other chemicals.

And no, nobody has a 'soul' in the biblical sense. If you want to talk about consciousness and the philosophy behind it then go right ahead but please stop trying to attribute such things to what some ancient fan-fiction that's been re-translated so many times it's like one of those hilarious google translate memes has to say.

People who're proud to believe in things without being presented any shred of evidence are fucking cretins. I have more respect for people that believe that UFOs are aliens than the majority of those following organised religion because hell, at least there's photographs of lights in the sky. Most religions just have some shitty old book.

 

[MikaDubbz]

So if you are a murderer and you murder an 8 month pregnant woman, in a civilised country you are murdering an unborn child and a woman - is this not the case, or do you only class the women as the one that would have been murdered and the child didn't matter because it wasn't born yet?

You still have done nothing to excuse away the embracing of church and state here instead of the supposed separation that supposedly is meant to exist in this country. I appreciate that you believe in the soul and you think this all murder and all that. I'm sure this gels well with your own religious beliefs, but many people don't share these beliefs and nothing you can say will change how fucked up it is that the government is slamming religious beliefs down all our throats as if they're fact.

 

[Elodain]

I personally don't agree with abortion as a "Get out of jail free" card from one's irresponsible behavior and seeming inability abstain from sex if one isn't confident in the effectiveness of or outright doesn't want to use contraception methods such as condoms, birth control, pull out, etc. Nor do I like the fact that giving a no questions asked abortion enables those that engage in said behavior to continue their reckless lifestyle that one day may have larger implications and consequences than "oops I'm knocked up better go get an abortion"

But I also don't agree with the idea that the government can tell people what they can and cant do to themselves.

Weird position to be in.

All I can hope is that this will make people think a bit harder before they just bone down without even trying to prevent lifeforms that would eventually become a child from being created...but I guess there is always tourism if they absolutely must insist.

 

[Dark_Ansem]

All that's been done is it's now the states decision to make it's own laws and not the governments.

It's still in the hands of the government, just not the FEDERAL government, but the State government.

You're illiterate, functionally and otherwise, and think you have the knowledge to debate this issue?

 

[Lacius]

At what point does that fertilised egg that is a growing baby become a baby

Fetal viability is a good standard, since it comports with a woman's bodily autonomy rights. One thing I can tell you for sure is a single-celled zygote should have zero rights, and to say otherwise is religious dogma being forced onto others.

Nobody can stop a women going to a place where abortion is legal - you can have the abortion there

Socioeconomic inequalities might be able to stop a woman from doing that. Your argument seems to be coming from a place of extreme privilege that lacks any real common sense about how the real world works.

or you can just not have sex

A human's sex drive, generally, is a biological drive comparable to the drive for food or water. Telling someone to just "not have sex" generally doesn't work, and telling someone to "just not have sex" demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of sexuality and sex.

or use contraception

Good idea, but it's not readily available to everybody in every location, and sex education in this country is horrible. Right-wing politicians are also doing what they can to make contraception harder to get, if not outright illegal to get.

the morning after pill

Right-wing politicians are making this illegal in places where they haven't already done so. It also isn't readily available to everyone, and there's a narrow time window to use it.

What makes a person a person then? What is it about you tha's different from me, or your mum? Do you think nobody has a soul? or is it something else that makes people different - if so what do you call that. If someone you love dies why are you upset?

Human cognition, sapience, and consciousness. Nothing else matters.

Whether or not someone is a person with consciousness and sapience is also irrelevant to whether or not abortion should be legal. I am a human, and you should still be able to use your right to bodily autonomy to not have to donate a kidney to save me.

If you don't have the money to go and visit another state - you really shouldn't be putting yourself in a position where you have unprotected sex

See my above comments on how that's easier said than done. Also, perhaps the people who don't have the money to visit or move to another state shouldn't be forced by the dystopian right-wing state to carry a pregnancy to term, particular when the aforementioned society doesn't offer health care, maternity leave, childcare, etc.

and if you do you should take the pill, the morning after pill and make sure the person you're having sex with is wearing a condom.

See above.

So if you are a murderer and you murder an 8 month pregnant woman, in a civilised country you are murdering an unborn child and a woman - is this not the case, or do you only class the women as the one that would have been murdered and the child didn't matter because it wasn't born yet?

A fetus in this example is passed the point of fetal viability, so for all intents and purposes, it can be considered a baby. If I cause bodily harm to a 2-month pregnant woman and she miscarries, that matters because of what the pregnancy meant to the woman and her family, not because the embryo was a person.

 

[Deleted member 414991]

I personally don't agree with abortion as a "Get out of jail free" card from one's irresponsible behavior and seeming inability abstain from sex if one isn't confident in the effectiveness of or outright doesn't want to use contraception methods such as condoms, birth control, pull out, etc. Nor do I like the fact that giving a no questions asked abortion enables those that engage in said behavior to continue their reckless lifestyle that one day may have larger implications and consequences than "oops I'm knocked up better go get an abortion"

But I also don't agree with the idea that the government can tell people what they can and cant do to themselves.

Weird position to be in.

All I can hope is that this will make people think a bit harder before they just bone down without even trying to prevent lifeforms that would eventually become a child from being created...but I guess there is always tourism if they absolutely must insist.

Abortion is something that is far more of a deliberate and potentially traumatic decision than you are making it out to be. The number of people that have this 'lifestyle' you're talking about is not large enough to where restricting or banning it for people that need it is anything but barbaric. Believe it or not, people often understand the implications of their actions.

 

[g00s3y]

You can tell the virgins on here who wish they could control women as much as they do in their hentai garbage they play on steam.

 

[Hanafuda]

Would it continue being an issue, with you, if the Constitution was amended to protect women in that aspect?

Philosophically it would probably still continue being "an issue" with me, in the same way any other moral consideration is. But if the Constitution is amended, then it's amended. I would support such an amendment provided it is limited to pre-viability of the fetus and some very narrow other exceptions. And I'm not concerned with whether pro-lifers are "appeased" or not. If the process for amending the Constitution is followed, that's enough.

 

[Lacius]

I personally don't agree with abortion as a "Get out of jail free" card from one's irresponsible behavior and seeming inability abstain from sex if one isn't confident in the effectiveness of or outright doesn't want to use contraception methods such as condoms, birth control, pull out, etc. Nor do I like the fact that giving a no questions asked abortion enables those that engage in said behavior to continue their reckless lifestyle that one day may have larger implications and consequences than "oops I'm knocked up better go get an abortion"

But I also don't agree with the idea that the government can tell people what they can and cant do to themselves.

Weird position to be in.

All I can hope is that this will make people think a bit harder before they just bone down without even trying to prevent lifeforms that would eventually become a child from being created...but I guess there is always tourism if they absolutely must insist.

I generally don't like abortion in the vast majority of cases, and if I were a woman and could get pregnant, I would probably never get an abortion under any circumstance unrelated to my health, but it isn't inconsistent to also say women should have legal access to abortion.

People are cosher for religious reasons, but they generally don't want to make that the law everyone has to follow. The same should go for abortion, regardless of your religious beliefs or how you personally feel about abortion.

 

[NoobletCheese]

An embryo is not a baby

Elsewhere you defined a baby as coming into being at the moment of birth, and not before the moment of birth. To me this is like saying a person wakes up on the morning of their birthday and suddenly has the ability to consent to sex. I think it's more of a gradual process with a grey area that we can only approximate. Are you morally comfortable killing the fetus a few days before birth?

New scenario. There's an organ shortage, and people are dying on the waiting list because there aren't enough organs to go around. The state could, however, forcibly compel people to donate organs like kidneys. There are two scenarios:

1. Deny people their bodily autonomy
2. Killing a person who needs an organ

Per your logic, #1 is preferable. Yikes.

I would rephrase the options like so:

1. Steal people's organs
2. Allow people to die of natural causes (organ failure)

Then the choice becomes a lot easier

In addition, politicians are making access to contraception, particularly emergency contraception, more difficult and in some cases outright illegal.

I can't see a justification for that.

"This embryo is siphoning resources from my body, it's causing irreparable and permanent changes to my body, and it has the potential to cause irreparable damage to my body or even kill me. I do not want this embryo inside me." That's more than enough of a justification for doing whatever she wants to her own body.

I would need to see the logical steps and connectives between the premises and conclusions. Can you express this as a valid & sound syllogism?

 

[mrdude]

You still have done nothing to excuse away the embracing of church and state here instead of the supposed separation that supposedly is meant to exist in this country. I appreciate that you believe in the soul and you think this all murder and all that. I'm sure this gels well with your own religious beliefs, but many people don't share these beliefs and nothing you can say will change how fucked up it is that the government is slamming religious beliefs down all our throats as if they're fact.

I'm not religious, in fact I am an Atheist, however that doen't mean I don't repect people having religious views and those that value unborn children. I don't know if a soul exists or not - but when you see someone that's alive and then look at them dead - you know they aren't sleeping and that their lifeforce/soul or whatever you want to call it has left their body.
As I already said - now it's up to each indidual state to make it's own laws up, which is not a bad thing, and if you want to get pregnant and then kill your baby well that's up to you because as far as I know you can still go to another state where abortion is legal, if you can't afford to do that - don't put yourself in that position.

 

[MikaDubbz]

I'm not religious, in fact I am an Atheist, however that doen't mean I don't repect people having religious views and those that value unborn children. I don't know if a soul exists or not - but when you see someone that's alive and then look at them dead - you know they aren't sleeping and that their lifeforce/soul or whatever you want to call it has left their body.
As I already said - now it's up to each indidual state to make it's own laws up, which is not a bad thing, and if you want to get pregnant and then kill your baby well that's up to you because as far as I know you can still go to another state where abortion is legal, if you can't afford to do that - don't put yourself in that position.

What you're doing is just shrugging off the fact that the church and state are in bed together, because it was only on a federal level and not a state level? Do you realize how ridiculous a stance that is? You're just straight up ok with that foundation of this country being destroyed, so long as its only on a federal level? Man you would just roll over and happily let a tyrant take over, huh?

Also, hate to break it to ya, but you sound to be more agnostic than atheist, perhaps not in regard to a God, but atheists also don't believe in any supernatural beings including souls. The fact that you're on the fence about that kind of idea makes you agnostic.

 

[DoctorBagPhD]

You can tell the virgins on here who wish they could control women as much as they do in their hentai garbage they play on steam.

Absolutely beautiful lmao.

Let me have your baby (so I may then abort it).

 

[Lacius]

Elsewhere you defined a baby as coming into being at the moment of birth, and not before the moment of birth.

No I didn't.

1. Steal people's organs
2. Allow people to die of natural causes (organ failure)

Then the choice becomes a lot easier

Cool, I can play.

1. Violate a woman's bodily autonomy, force her through the psychological trauma of having no control over her own life or body, and force her to potentially die from a condition she didn't want to have
2. Allow a fetus to die of natural causes (being unable to survive outside a woman's womb)

You don't appear to be having this conversation in good faith.

I would need to see the logical steps and connectives between the premises and conclusions. Can you express this as a valid & sound syllogism?

Lol, if that's where you want to go, you first, but I can probably save you some grief by letting you know that you aren't going to like where this goes. When it comes to issues of legality, the onus is on the person saying X should be illegal to demonstrate why it should be illegal, not the other way around.

I'm not religious, in fact I am an Atheist, however that doen't mean I don't repect people having religious views and those that value unborn children. I don't know if a soul exists or not - but when you see someone that's alive and then look at them dead - you know they aren't sleeping and that their lifeforce/soul or whatever you want to call it has left their body.
As I already said - now it's up to each indidual state to make it's own laws up, which is not a bad thing, and if you want to get pregnant and then kill your baby well that's up to you because as far as I know you can still go to another state where abortion is legal, if you can't afford to do that - don't put yourself in that position.

Respecting a person's religious beliefs and their right to have them is different from whether or not they should be able to force those beliefs down other people's throats through state law. If state law reflects those dogmatic religious beliefs, things look at lot less like the US and a lot more like Gilead.

those that value unborn children.

Real women > hypothetical children

now it's up to each indidual state to make it's own laws up, which is not a bad thing

If the laws are unjust, yeah it is. Just because a state can do something and does it doesn't mean it's morally justified.

and then kill your baby

A fetus is not a baby.