Pokémon - Casual Children's Game or Competitive Strategy?

Do you find/enjoy Pokemon to be casual or competitive?


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Guild McCommunist

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The games can be fun as a RPG-lite but as a hardcore strategy game? No, not really.

The whole EVs/IVs thing I think is really stupid. It was designed so that almost no two Pokemon would be the same, that your Blastoise would be unique to your friend's Blastoise. But of course the system was cracked and now people just abuse it for the sake of "being competitive". It's Super Smash Bros. all over again. Take a relatively simple game, break it, then call it "in-depth" and "competitive".

I miss when my games were just fun and not about being broken ;_;
 
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chris888222

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Pokemon has evolved a lot over the years. Today I see it as largely casual, but not so much to kids anymore. (Particularly the 6th gen, imo it doesn't really seem to be targeted at kids)

Of course it does have its "competitive" side, hence I voted both.
 

Flame

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I say both. Pokemon has something that no other game achieved as good(some sport games has), which is that you don't want to delete or lose your save because you have put alot of effort in yto that save file. And thats why like playing pokemon, because you build a relation with a game, as sad that maybe be. Its stil great.
 

FAST6191

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It does count. It adds to my point of how much freedom the game gives you.
Basically every game that does not force you to move on could be role played, made player limited or otherwise tweaked without so much as an extra cheat being activated. If you enjoy doing as such in pokemon that is fine, however as far as arguing it from a game theory/game design type perspective then it is not really useful.
 

Celice

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It does count. It adds to my point of how much freedom the game gives you.
The game isn't giving you anything; rather, you are now exploiting and creating your own thing, regardless of the game, which you then act as if it were part of the game, or at least lend-worthy towards it.
 

gokujr1000

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Basically every game that does not force you to move on could be role played, made player limited or otherwise tweaked without so much as an extra cheat being activated. If you enjoy doing as such in pokemon that is fine, however as far as arguing it from a game theory/game design type perspective then it is not really useful.


That just means it could also be used as a viable point when describing how much freedom another game gives you. Maybe we should just agree to disagree?
 

FAST6191

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That just means it could also be used as a viable point when describing how much freedom another game gives you. Maybe we should just agree to disagree?

Can't get there I am afraid -- the maths says it does not count (and though I can hack things you can hardly even "house rule" it like a board game or something), it was hardly the first "free roaming"/user restrictable game or a truly notable entry within it (notable game series, absolutely, notable game from an open world/freeform perspective, not even close) and the concept of runs or adding in a type of role playing is far from a new one either (variants and house rules have existed longer than computers have been around).
 

gokujr1000

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Can't get there I am afraid -- the maths says it does not count (and though I can hack things you can hardly even "house rule" it like a board game or something), it was hardly the first "free roaming"/user restrictable game or a truly notable entry within it (notable game series, absolutely, notable game from an open world/freeform perspective, not even close) and the concept of runs or adding in a type of role playing is far from a new one either (variants and house rules have existed longer than computers have been around).


When did I say it was the first?
 

2ndApex

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The games can be fun as a RPG-lite but as a hardcore strategy game? No, not really.

The whole EVs/IVs thing I think is really stupid. It was designed so that almost no two Pokemon would be the same, that your Blastoise would be unique to your friend's Blastoise. But of course the system was cracked and now people just abuse it for the sake of "being competitive". It's Super Smash Bros. all over again. Take a relatively simple game, break it, then call it "in-depth" and "competitive".

I miss when my games were just fun and not about being broken ;_;


How are either of these games "broken"?

Both of these games have a lot of depth and fast growing metagames, the only complaint I really have against Pokemon is that it's a really counterpick heavy game, but so are most TCG's.
 

FAST6191

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When did I say it was the first?


To be useful as a point of comparison things tend to have to be notably better/different than what came before or the first. There is some leeway for the ultra popular examples and that we do not typically call things doom clones any more says the rest of that line of logic.

This is risking becoming a circular line of not all that much reasoning though so I reckon a summary as I see it.
The OP questioned whether it was a competitive title. Competition as a term has roots several areas of maths like game theory, mechanism design, competition theory and such like right through to the AI that governs NPC battles.
The short version/result of all that is if the concepts are not in the rules then they do not count. This is not a bad thing and in the more general fields of game design such things arguably fall into the ideas of meta gameplay, something which by virtue of the cartoons, the cards, the comics and the like the people behind pokemon excelled at to an almost unparalleled degree (some of Valve's stuff, world of warcraft and maybe a handful of other "MMO" type games being the only things to even come distantly close). Similarly game theory is a limited discipline by virtue of it starting from the assumption that all actors are rational, though much as game design is more than numbers for the rules game theory recognises this and adapts to it.

My analysis of the maths of the game -- several hundred possible pokemon, several hundred moves a piece (limited no less), moves that are not preset, pp, hp, stats, battle alterable stats, incomplete information (I possibly do not know the pokemon you have, their PP at a given instance, their moves, their obedience...), items, items that can not be used in certain types of match (if my memory of red and blue holds you can not use a pokeflute in link battle, though I do have to also add that the pokeflute awakens both participants unlike the consumable item to do the same), random elements, arguably not a "take it in turns" battle and on and on leads to options at any one time, and AI to match, being basically impossible to consider from a supercomputer and certainly the human brain, this places it far above any noted board game too. However when narrowed down by catching and training the perfect pokemon with full ev/iv guides (something which is basically grinding), and also by virtue of the mechanics dismissing decent percentages of strategies, it reduces the complexity right back down to where a barely skilled human can manage the permutations once more. By virtue of this I struggle to call pokemon a competitive game when playing by the initial rules; given a reasonable grounding in the rules and a well picked set of ev/iv trained stuff* and the outcome is probably random, go to chess which is a far simpler game taken in light of the previous and I doubt anybody could beat a grandmaster but more to the point I do not see (and the maths would likely back me) the potential for chess grandmaster level play** within pokemon. It occurs to me that people have previously dubbed pokemon an entry to this style of game (more pejoratively "my first ..."). This is not quite the same as my issues with the likes of many "competitive" fighting games and tournaments using the game but such things share many of the same elements.

*for the record ev/iv is a fairly basic compound interest type of affair, nothing especially interesting as far as maths goes.

**after you know the pieces and their moves your next steps are to learn openings, mid games and end games, something that can not really happen in pokemon by virtue of the points (game theory definition of points) needed to win a match reducing play time to very few moves ("It's super effective").

If you like role playing in it, like runs/challenges like nuslocke or whatever, like the ev/iv scene then fantastic, and I commend the game's designers for pulling it off even if it is not an uncommon trait, and taken in light of some of the above it may even render it competitive, however that is all you and yours and not the game itself. In essence it is somewhat like playing a hacked game which is a different game from the perspective of the maths.
 

Guild McCommunist

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How are either of these games "broken"?

Both of these games have a lot of depth and fast growing metagames, the only complaint I really have against Pokemon is that it's a really counterpick heavy game, but so are most TCG's.


My point is that their "depth" wasn't designed depth, it's just that people cracked the IV/EV system and ruined their original purpose. The game isn't designed to be so stupid, I mean like requiring you to grind a VERY SPECIFIC type of Pokemon for a bunch of values that are absolutely invisible to the game's naked eye is not designed depth. It's breaking the game to try and make it "competitive" and "in depth" when really it's just quite stupid.

In a TCG the game is designed to be as in depth as it's designed to be. And things that are stupid in the game are fixed. Here they never even attempted to make EVs and IVs their original purpose, they just went "Uh, y-yup that was the depth we designed all along!" It's not, the system was made so that no two Pokemon are the same since no one fights their Pokemon exactly the same.
 
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Foxi4

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My point is that their "depth" wasn't designed depth, it's just that people cracked the IV/EV system and ruined their original purpose. The game isn't designed to be so stupid, I mean like requiring you to grind a VERY SPECIFIC type of Pokemon for a bunch of values that are absolutely invisible to the game's naked eye is not designed depth. It's breaking the game to try and make it "competitive" and "in depth" when really it's just quite stupid.
Exactly. If the values are not visible anywhere in the game then they weren't intended to be seen or in any way used by the user, the game was merely reverse-engineered and "figured out" by the community. They weren't designed to be used though - they're not mentioned anywhere, there's no tutorial within the game proper treating about them, nothing. I'm a strong oponent of "invisible values" like this - if the stats are influenced by IV and EV values then I should both be able to check them and be informed on how to improve them in the game proper.
 
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Foxi4

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Some people overthink it, and some people dont even try to think about it.
Then you have guys like me who acknowledge its existence and co-exist.

This isn't even about "looking into it" too much, it's about fairness. I don't think it's fair that my friend has a very real chance of having a better Pokemon despite putting the same amount of work into leveling it up and applying the exact same strategy just because his dice roll was marginally better than mine.

Don't get me wrong - dice rolls and random events are all fine and dandy, but not when tens of hours hang in balance. If there is no way for me to check what I actually "rolled out", leveling a Pokemon up may end up being a complete waste of my time, artificially extending the grinding cycle of an otherwise very simple stats system.
 

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My point is that their "depth" wasn't designed depth, it's just that people cracked the IV/EV system and ruined their original purpose. The game isn't designed to be so stupid, I mean like requiring you to grind a VERY SPECIFIC type of Pokemon for a bunch of values that are absolutely invisible to the game's naked eye is not designed depth. It's breaking the game to try and make it "competitive" and "in depth" when really it's just quite stupid.
EV/IV values (or "base stats" as they're officially called) are now visible in X/Y IIRC, and they've also added a fun way of training EVs (and a way to reset the stats if you don't train them to your liking), so the Pokemon team has embraced the competitive scene and is trying to support it. A few other games have also taken a similar approach to unintentional stuff like this; just because a mechanic wasn't originally meant to be in the game, doesn't mean that it doesn't provide benefit to the gameplay.
 

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