Hacking N64 Emulation on 3DS... Speculation

[Rydian]

Thank you, awesome post. Totally agree. However, is there anyway to do any of the calculations in emulation with the GPU? Or, would it not make a significant boost in speed/ the PICA wouldn't be able to pull something off like open CL?

S'cool.

GPUs are meant to run through highly-parallel tasks, like computing the color of an ass-ton of pixels (1080p is 2,073,600 pixels per frame) and spitting them onto the screen. While GPUs have been used for other tasks, these tasks are ones that can be paralleled as well. Video conversion is one such task, there's a ton of data, and it can all be run through in any random order as long as it's all done at the end.

However, emulation is almost the opposite. Even emulators for the PS2 and GC/Wii only use up to three cores at a time, and demand a lot of power from them. That type of thing would run extremely poorly on GPUs, because even though they have a lot more total power... it's because of the sheer number of cores (my HD 5770 has 800 "cores"), but the issue is that the individual cores themselves are very weak. That's why you don't see GPUs used for other tasks, like web browsing or file searching.

 

[Coto]

Doesnt the GPU account for anything?

Not if SDK isn't properly formed (close to hardware).
--
I'm not sure... but if 3DS CPU speed isn't scalable, it'll be difficult because of slow CPU speed.

 

[Thorhian]

S'cool.

GPUs are meant to run through highly-parallel tasks, like computing the color of an ass-ton of pixels (1080p is 2,073,600 pixels per frame) and spitting them onto the screen. While GPUs have been used for other tasks, these tasks are ones that can be paralleled as well. Video conversion is one such task, there's a ton of data, and it can all be run through in any random order as long as it's all done at the end.

However, emulation is almost the opposite. Even emulators for the PS2 and GC/Wii only use up to three cores at a time, and demand a lot of power from them. That type of thing would run extremely poorly on GPUs, because even though they have a lot more total power... it's because of the sheer number of cores (my HD 5770 has 800 "cores"), but the issue is that the individual cores themselves are very weak. That's why you don't see GPUs used for other tasks, like web browsing or file searching.

Yes, I understand, but for some tasks like with Dolphin, I know they have a Open CL texture decoder (I know it usually doesn't do much, but others have reported that SOME games do have some boosts). I don't mean at large scale, since emulation couldn't really be highly-parallel. The smallest gains where possible are still gains. At this level, you just might need to squeeze out as much power as possible if you even want to try to emulate any games to a playable level. (Cant wait for full HLE revamp btw =3)

 

[back25]

Just because you own game on n64, it doesn't give you legal rights to emulate that game on anything.-snip-

This guy is totally right. everyone seems to be missing the point here.
to legally emulate something, you need the original game and the console.
that's why it's completely legal to share emulators without any BIOS.

 

[Kikirini]

I would looooove N64 emulation on the 3DS. I would probably never stop playing Banjo Kazooie if it happened. Alas, seeing as most of the "good" N64 emulators for the PC still can't play the games I like, I'm not going to hold my breath. Good thing lightly used N64s aren't too expensive on ebay...

 

[Rydian]

This guy is totally right. everyone seems to be missing the point here.
to legally emulate something, you need the original game and the console.
that's why it's completely legal to share emulators without any BIOS.

What about emulators that don't need a copy of the original BIOS?

You don't need a BIOS for NES, SNES, GBA, N64, GC, Wii, and more.

The major emulators for most systems created their own drop-in functional replacement (or didn't need one originally).

 

[Clydefrosch]

i always thought, you'd need to have the original game and dump the rom to that game yourself, from that original game and hang on to that original game (not just any other copy, but the one you dumped the rom from) anyway, if you didnt want to fall into a grey area, thats turning blacker by the year.

after that, you should be free to use an emulator to play the game with. as long, as said emulator doesnt require a bios/isnt somehow copying official code unless of course, you again dumped that yourself and still have the source of that dump with you.

at which point, emulation uses its benefits for pretty much 95% of all people that even care about it in the first place.

 

[Shubshub]

i always thought, you'd need to have the original game and dump the rom to that game yourself, from that original game and hang on to that original game (not just any other copy, but the one you dumped the rom from) anyway, if you didnt want to fall into a grey area, thats turning blacker by the year.

Well Technically yes but the "law" Isn't going to know wether you Physically Own the Game or not if they find out you have a ROM in your Possession so Theoretically they can't do anything about it (Well they can but yea whatever they never have)

 

[Sychophantom]

Show me a law that says it's okay for me to jerk my dick. Last I checked laws list what's wrong, not what's right. They're a blacklist, not a whitelist. They outline behavior that the rulers of the society deem wrong.

When proper behavior is being listed, then it's in exception to otherwise-blanket laws. However emulation (and reverse-engineering) are legal, there is no blanket law for them.

Are you one of those people that thinks video games are some sort of sacred art and somehow above and beyond other mediums? It's software, streams of data, presented either as a service, or as a copy on a physical medium that's sold.

I can copy the contents of a DVD onto my PC any time I want, why would there be a difference if the disc contains (non-CSS encrypted) DVD-video data, versus the install files for a game? I can copy and paste files on my computer to make copies all the time, what's the difference between copying the install files for Half-Life, and last week's psych notes?

Whatever you do in the privacy of your own home to your own body is none of my business. The difference in your example is copyright laws. I would imagine you wrote last week's psych notes yourself, or got permission to do so. Did you write the install files to Half-Life yourself, or get written permission to do so? Did you film that video? Direct it? Write it?

I see everything as art in some way, but that's neither here nor there. I also seem to be at fault for not clarifying the idea I am trying to get across, so I'll do that and hopefully won't derail this thread further.


Emulating the N64 on the 3DS is a goal for some. But with everyone who "only plays games they own" is usually outnumbered by those special individuals who would go out and buy a 70assloadGB SD card, slap it into whatever allows this emulation to happen, and then go "lol free games".

I honestly don't care if that is what you do. I simply want to break this pipedream that it's legal. It isn't. Especially any game which has a version available via current systems (Like Wii/WiiU VC, or the re-release of Zelda OoT,), those copyrights are renewed and valid. And while Nintendo is not going to legally assrape your average user for playing that copy of Superman 64 on a 3DS/PSP/left testicle/whatever, they can, have, and possibly will find one unlucky S.o.B to make an example of. Try not to be that person.

The emulator is legal. What you play on it may not be.

 

[ChristianHood]

And where does this info exist. Im pretty sure the 3DS runs with 2 ARM11 Cpus. Also, thanks for pointing out the MIPS, could have sworn it was using RISC, lol. However, it is still 64 Bit. However, this still proves that the 3DS cannot run n64 games perfectly or probably even close. Thanks Oxybelis.

MIPS is a RISC chip, as is ARM. RISC is just a style of creating chips (favoring less instructions for more performance). Just like Intel x86 is CISC.

 

[Shubshub]

The emulator is legal. What you play on it may not be.

If the emulator is legal why isn't playing stuff on it legal


And Getting Back on Topic....
Nintendo 64 Emulation will Probably be Possible on 3DS
Sound may be sacrified for performance (Although an Option to Mute the sound in favor of performance would be nice)

 

[Tom]

I really don't think it will, They would need to use the processor and graphics processor in conjunction to get the power necessary, which is hard. If it does, then it will be un-playable.

 

[Sychophantom]

If the emulator is legal why isn't playing stuff on it legal

Copyright laws.

Emulators, in this case, are tools. You can play open source games, or public domain, or even abandonware all free and legal. But Zelda, or Starfox, or Conker's Bad Fur day (a persona favorite), and nope, sorry....Not legal anymore.

 

[mightymuffy]

stuff

*sigh* - I had to click on your username, and to my surprise you're even older than I am! Personally I've been into emulators since the 90s - hell I can remember MAME in its infancy! .....I must have had to plough through countless topics on various boards (some due to being a mod or similar) about all this legal grey area jargon in my time, and sorry for saying this, but I'm beyond sick of this clogging up what could otherwise be an interesting topic... I'm sure most members are aware of this, and clearly many have different points, so there's really no need to be all holier-than-thou, don't you think??

Back on topic, as has been said before, N64 on 3DS would be tricky-impossible... personally I wouldn't expect anything more than the Emu on the PSP (and even then it'll take a few releases to achieve that...)
Unlike the PSP though, I think we can eventually look forward to a near-perfect SNES & possibly GBA emulator on it! *crosses fingers*

 

[Shubshub]

*sigh* - I had to click on your username, and to my surprise you're even older than I am! Personally I've been into emulators since the 90s - hell I can remember MAME in its infancy! .....I must have had to plough through countless topics on various boards (some due to being a mod or similar) about all this legal grey area jargon in my time, and sorry for saying this, but I'm beyond sick of this clogging up what could otherwise be an interesting topic... I'm sure most members are aware of this, and clearly many have different points, so there's really no need to be all holier-than-thou, don't you think??

Back on topic, as has been said before, N64 on 3DS would be tricky-impossible... personally I wouldn't expect anything more than the Emu on the PSP (and even then it'll take a few releases to achieve that...)
Unlike the PSP though, I think we can eventually look forward to a near-perfect SNES & possibly GBA emulator on it! *crosses fingers*

The PSP Only had 32mb Of RAM Remember

The 3DS Has 128mb RAM
I'm Pretty sure we might get Near-Perfect N64 Emulation
Nintendo 64 only has 4mb RAM Same as the DS

 

[the_randomizer]

I would looooove N64 emulation on the 3DS. I would probably never stop playing Banjo Kazooie if it happened. Alas, seeing as most of the "good" N64 emulators for the PC still can't play the games I like, I'm not going to hold my breath. Good thing lightly used N64s aren't too expensive on ebay...

Banjo Kazooie runs just fine on emulators, at least the one I have.

The PSP Only had 32mb Of RAM Remember

The 3DS Has 128mb RAM
I'm Pretty sure we might get Near-Perfect N64 Emulation
Nintendo 64 only has 4mb RAM Same as the DS

Emulation doesn't work that way. It still needs to be optimized, irrespective of how much an N64 has in terms of power compared to the 3DS.

 

[sinx4lyfe]

The PSP Only had 32mb Of RAM Remember

The 3DS Has 128mb RAM
I'm Pretty sure we might get Near-Perfect N64 Emulation

Nintendo 64 only has 4mb RAM Same as the DS

Lol we wish. Ram isnt the only thing to make a near perf emulation. Anyways once that time will happen it'll take a very long time for A decent emulator.

 

[the_randomizer]

As for the argument that we can play N64 games on the VC, that's true, but the selection of N64 games is severely limited and plagued with emulation issues. A whole twenty-one games? Sign me up!!

Spoiler

This is why N64 on a PC is superior to the VC; there's actually a catalog worth playing. I don't care what their excuse was, the Wii could handle more then 21 paltry games.

 

[MAXLEMPIRA]

heey, I really don't know much about emulation or hacking, but I had this idea... what about to do a "remake" of the N64 games in the N3DS, what I want mean.. (sorry for my bad english) can we take the files from a N64 ROM then, in some way, do the nessesary programing to make a N3DS ROM and then run it like a normal 3DS ROM. well, this is an idea that a had when they release Zelda OoT 3D... I think it is posible, but i don't know how much programing knowleadge it's required to do something like this... or apps for make the translate from one format to the other...
someone who know something about this??

 

[Thorhian]

MIPS is a RISC chip, as is ARM. RISC is just a style of creating chips (favoring less instructions for more performance). Just like Intel x86 is CISC.

Thank you, i learn things everyday, lol XD You new? A game dev even lol?