<!--quoteo(post=3768668:date=Jul 11 2011, 05:58 PM:name=cwstjdenobs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(cwstjdenobs @ Jul 11 2011, 05:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=3768668"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=3768618:date=Jul 11 2011, 04:39 PM:name=Foxi4)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Foxi4 @ Jul 11 2011, 04:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=3768618"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Christianity does not condemn people of different or no faith at all, it just assumes that said person was misguided,<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nope it says you can't be an Atheist, or of another faith, it's all apparently so obvious and you are lying by saying you don't believe so being wicked.
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It's a false doctrine.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1. IF YOU BELIEVE IN JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR PERSONAL LORD AND SAVIOR
THEN YOU DO NOT GO TO HELL
2. IF YOU DO NOT BELIEVE IN JESUS CHRIST
AND YOU HAVE NOT HEARD THE GOSPEL OR DO NOT UNDERSTAND IT
THEN YOU ARE JUDGED BY THE NATURAL LAW (OR BY THE MOSAIC LAW
IF YOU ARE A JEW.) THE ROYAL LAW ("You shall love your neighbor
as yourself") FULFILLS ALL THE REQUIREMENTS OF BOTH THE MOSAIC
LAW AND THE NATURAL LAW (according to Galatians 5:14).
The Natural Law is approximated in the Ten Commandments
(see Exodus 20:1-17) together with The Great
Commandment (see Matthew 22:35-40). The Royal Law,
so named by James, is "You shall love your neighbor
as yourself" (see Galatians 5:14, James 2:8).
The Mosaic Law is all the Law of the Old Testament.
3. IF YOU DO NOT BELIEVE IN JESUS CHRIST
AND YOU HAVE HEARD THE GOSPEL AND UNDERSTAND IT
(but you reject it nevertheless)
THEN YOU GO TO HELL
. . . unless Jesus decides to take mercy on you, which He as Judge,
is allowed to do.
~http://www.internetchurchofchrist.org/pearl-doallnonchristiansgotohell.html<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->B. Can non-Christians be saved?
<b>The "no" position: non-Christians cannot be saved</b>
Many people believe the Bible says clearly and unequivocally that salvation is only possible for those people who believe in Christ as Savior and Son of God. To the objection that this seems "mean-spirited" of God, they point out that all men stand condemned because of their own sin, and God does not "owe" salvation to anyone. He has graciously offered atonement for sin to those who put their faith in Christ.
John 3:16-18 is probably the strongest statement in the Bible that salvation is possible only by faith in Christ as the Son of God:
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. (NIV, John 3:16-18)
The apostle Paul stated a similar position, though not worded quite as strongly:
But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. (NIV, Romans 3:21-25)
There are many other Bible verses, especially in John, that imply that faith in Christ is a condition of salvation (John 5:24, John 6:28-29, John 6:47, John 9:35, John 11:25-26, John 12:36, John 20:31, Galatians 2:16, Galatians 2:20, Galatians 3:26).
<b>The "yes" position: non-Christians can be saved</b>
Critics of the "no" position point out that the New Testament books were originally written and used as statements of faith and reference material within the early Christian communities. This is especially true of the Letters of Paul, which were written to specific churches he had founded, usually to address some specific issue of doctrine or conduct that had arisen. Within these churches, those who didn't believe in Christ would be those who had heard and understood the Gospel but willfully rejected it. Thus, the condemnation of non-believers may be intended for those people rather than for ones who had not heard the Gospel. There is some support for this position even in John. In the story of Jesus healing a blind man (John 9:1-41), Jesus condemns the Pharisees not for their lack of faith (symbolized by blindness), but because they have heard the truth and still refuse to believe (they claim they can see). In that context he says,
Then Jesus told him, "I have come to judge the world. I have come to give sight to the blind and to show those who think they see that they are blind." The Pharisees who were standing there heard him and asked, "Are you saying we are blind?" "If you were blind, you wouldn't be guilty," Jesus replied. "But you remain guilty because you claim you can see. (NLT, John 9:39-41)
Paul, too, writes that those who have not heard the Gospel (the pagan Gentiles) may attain the equivalent, in their own hearts, by other means:
God will punish the Gentiles when they sin, even though they never had God's written law. And he will punish the Jews when they sin, for they do have the law. For it is not merely knowing the law that brings God's approval. Those who obey the law will be declared right in God's sight. Even when Gentiles, who do not have God's written law, instinctively follow what the law says, they show that in their hearts they know right from wrong. They demonstrate that God's law is written within them, for their own consciences either accuse them or tell them they are doing what is right. The day will surely come when God, by Jesus Christ, will judge everyone's secret life. This is my message. (NLT, Romans 2:12-16)
Another criticism of the "no" position is that the idea of faith in Christ as a condition of salvation is not strongly present in the synoptic gospels (Matthew, Mark and Luke), if at all. The overall thrust of the synoptic gospels is that salvation is available to all those who make love for God and love for their fellow men the guiding forces in their lives. This is best summed up by Jesus' response to the expert in religious law:
One day an expert in religious law stood up to test Jesus by asking him this question: "Teacher, what must I do to receive eternal life?" Jesus replied, "What does the law of Moses say? How do you read it?" The man answered, " 'You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your strength, and all your mind.' And, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' " "Right!" Jesus told him. "Do this and you will live!" (NLT, Luke 10:25-28)
A similar thought is expressed in 1 John:
Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us. (NIV, 1 John 4:7-12)
There are a number of other verses in the Bible that suggest that God will judge different people by different standards, and salvation is more generally available than just to those with faith in Christ as Son of God (Matthew 5:43-46, Matthew 25:31-46, Luke 12:47-48, Luke 18:26-27, John 1:29-30, John 5:25-29, John 12:28-32, Romans 14:10-12, 1 Timothy 4:10, Revelation 20:11-15).
In the past, some Christian churches taught that all non-Christians were condemned, and even Christians of other denominations were likely condemned. However, world travel and instant communication have brought people of different religions closer together and have forced a reevaluation of old beliefs that other religions were invalid, obsolete, or even the work of the devil. If we take John 3:16-18 as the sole criterion for salvation, then all non-Christians, children who die young, and the mentally disabled will be automatically condemned to hell. Many people find that inconsistent with the New Testament's portrayal of God as a loving Father. In addition, it seems inconsistent with the Bible's portrayal of God as all-powerful to believe He is somehow unable to save anyone He finds worthy, regardless of religious affiliation.
Dutch theologian Jacobus Arminius (1560 - 1609) believed it is God's desire to save all people if they do not reject the salvation offered by Christ. God has bestowed sufficient grace on even those who have not heard the Gospel for them to implicitly accept that salvation. Those who know the Gospel have greater advantages and responsibilities; their salvation is conditional on repentance and faith in Christ.
Today, the majority of Christian churches adhere to some variation of the Arminian view of salvation.
~http://www.twopaths.com/faq_salvation.htm#VIIIB<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As in many other cases, this dilema is open for interpretation of the reader. It all really goes down to your personal belief. You rather choose to belive in the God of Fear or the God of Love, you follow the Old Testament closely or the New one.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What evidence do you have to back up this claim? That is certainly not the message I got from reading the Bible.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's your interpretation then.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Your version of Christianity does not make up Christianity as a whole.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Of course it doesn't, we are all individuals and we percieve rules differently. Some follow them strictly, even when they're stupid, others choose to use them as guidelines, not original truths. I'm just the latter.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You call the Bible fictional and apparently disagree with what the majority of Christians think.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Who is that majority? Who is the minority? I don't percieve religion that way. Your belief is your buisness, it's not a matter for statistics, it's a matter of the heart and mind. The Bible needs to be revised - it cannot be conscidered a concrete source of information and law - it's circa 2000 years old. Obviously it went obselete, and obviously it needs revisions. Times change, and so should religion. Lack of evolution means regression.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In what way do you consider yourself to be a Christian?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I simply believe in Jesus Christ the messiah, his father and the Holy Spirit and I do my best not to break obvious moral rules. That's the extent, more or less.