Is piracy justifiable?

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Piracy is absolutely justified IMO. It has nothing to do with sleeping at night as morally, I have no problem with software piracy that isn't for profit, and I say this as someone who used to work in the industry.

The Commodore Amiga was a success for many years. The reason for that was software piracy, no question. Even Commodore themselves admitted that. I knew a TON of Amiga users. Not one didn't pirate software. The argument that a pirated copy is a lost sale is absolute nonsense. So with the Amiga, thanks to piracy, you've got a much large userbase, simply down to piracy. Commercial titles logically would still sell the same percentage, so a larger userbase means more sales. Yes, it also means more piracy, but you've also got more users to buy your titles. As one goes up, so does the other.

I bought a DS for the homebrew. I have a 1 gig CF card mostly full of roms I never play. These days my DS is used as an e-book reader and a web browser with DSO.

The software industry treats us all like crap. (I'm more approaching this from the PC side of the industry.) If you go and buy some bread and it's mouldy, or even tastes weird, you can return it to the store and get your money back. You buy a bicycle, and ten minutes into using it the wheel falls off, you can take it back. There would be absolute uproar from consumers if you couldn't.

Yet we gleefully accept the software industry doing it. You pick up a game at your local WalMart, EBGames, whatever... You take it home and put it on your PC. The copy protection doesn't play nice with your system meaning you can't run it. You take it back to the store. But you can't return it, because you may have copied it, but the copy protection is the exact reason you can't.

What an absolutely great industry! They can churn out the absolute worst attrocity to ever be pressed onto disk, and they're laughing all the way, because you can't return it. If it doesn't work, you have no recourse. If it's crap, you have no recourse. If it does run, and is unplayably bugged, you have no recourse.

So piracy is completely acceptable IMO when the industry themselves engage in unfair business practices that wouldn't be tolerated from any other industry. Incessant claims of software piracy are made. "We lose 2 billion a year" and all that nonsense. "Every pirated copy is a lost sale." So working on that theory, given how many sales are supposedly lost to piracy according to the industry, that would, logically, make an unpirateable title the greatest selling of all time, if the industries statements were correct. Only it didn't quite work that way. Starforce protected titles were very hard to crack. Some titles, despite being 2-3 years old, have STILL not been cracked and pirated. (GT Legends springs to mind.) meaning if the would be pirate wanted it, they'd have to buy it. Now according to the industry, when someone pirates a title, they lose a sale. So all these little pirates should have run out and bought the titles should they not? Only they didn't. Sales were average, surprise surprise.

The industry crows on about piracy because they know they make a big enough noise, they can get attention with all their big scary numbers and push new, harsher legislation through that punishes software pirates with harsher fines and prison sentences than some rapists and murderers get. They know damn well that piracy also has positives. For years it was believed Lucasarts deliberately leaked their titles early to create buzz. Early release piracy creates buzz.

The industry treats users with utter contempt. Why should the users feel any obligation to the industry? And anyone who says "there'd be no industry", if piracy was the industry destroying cancer they'd have you believe, there wouldn't BE a game industry by this point. Even the PC gaming industry has been declared dead many times, and is still thriving.

The only pirates I have an issue with are the for profit folk. But the authorities don't go after them. No, much easier to go after soft targets they know they can win against because they can't afford decent legal representation. They get good press for busting a "hardened criminal". (Despite the fact that software piracy is NOT theft by legal definition, as you are not in sole posession of someone elses property. It's copyright violation. Ironically if it WAS theft, the legal penalities would be less.) The industry gets to wave it's dick around for all to see... And the resources that were used to catch this hardened software pirate weren't available to try and catch someone who was actually a threat to society rather than a companies bottom line.

Sorry to rant on, but I worked in the industry for many years, and all the claims about how damaging piracy are are absolute bollocks, and they know it.

Hadrian: Anyone who trusts game reviews is an idiot. I've seen what happens first hand when someone tells the truth. The bigger publications will lose ad revenue if they piss off the big companies, and the smaller publications simply stop getting the free product they depend on if a poor game is given an appropriate review.
 
Let's see....sit on my ass and download games for free, or take my hard-earned money and spend it on those same games that I could leech for free. Gee, what a tough choice.

Whether it's justified or not, I don't really care. Free better than pay.....easier too. One cart instead of many is always better. It's like me with a bottle of beer....SLURP! AHH! Gimme another.

What I think is funny is people (on other forums) talking about flashcards and saying, "I'm just gonna use it for homebrew. I will still buy actual games.", yeah, right, ok buddy, sure.

I haven't actually bought any games since the day I first got my SCminiSD.....unless you count the R4DS purchase.
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I already have enough avenues of exit for my cash, anything I can do to reduce the amount I spend on things I don't really need in the first place (want yes, need no) is justified in my mind.

I don't care what the "law" says, nor do I carry even the slightest bit of guilt around with me about it.

tongue.gif


UncleChuckle makes a hell of a lot of good points too. I just didn't feel like typing all that kind of stuff out.
 
Well, I"ll be the devil's advocate here & say this.

Is stealing justifiable?
If I was a starving kid, and I came into your house & stole everything from you, would you be cool with it? I think not.
Just because prices are too steep, doesn't mean that we have to steal shit. If food was too expensive, would you spend your money on something else, and steal all of your food?
Video games & software aren't a necessity for most people. People that run businesses, generally go the legit route, but like I said - not a necessity. We don't NEED to play video games, but we do it for fun. If your hobby is too expensive for your liking, then find a new one - or fork out the cash.

Now on to how I personally feel about the situation.
Gaming prices are pretty high. I'd rather spend my money on crap that I'm not going to be done using in 2 weeks, or food, or a place to live. However, I don't think that it's right for everyone to pirate all of their games and whatnot.
The gaming industry doesn't really make that much money as it is off of their consoles, so they gotta sell their games.
Anyway, all I'm trying to say here is... Balance out your piracy with your legitimacy, and there won't be any problems (as long as you don't get caught!)
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Is stealing justifiable?
If I was a starving kid, and I came into your house & stole everything from you, would you be cool with it?

Bullshit argument. It's not theft. You are not depriving anyone of a physical item, nor breaking and entering.

A more accurate argument would be "If I made an exact duplicate of everything you own for myself", which of course most people would say "go ahead".

You're using the exact same argument the industry uses, and it's bullshit, because you're not stealing anything. IT IS NOT THEFT! IT IS NOT the same as walking into a store and stealing a copy. It is not the same as breaking into a house. Is it not the same as stealing a car. It is MAKING A DUPLICATE OF SOMETHING.
 
A side note: Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo sell their consoles at a loss and make their money on games. So if you want to punish one of the console makers, the best thing you can do is buy their console, then never buy a title for it.
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Piracy isn't justifiable. But it's not the end of the world either. I do it. You do it. Big deal.

Intellectual property theft for personal gain (the real piracy) is both unjustifiable and wrong and can't be excused with "faceless corporations", "profit churning companies", " they make enough money on consoles". It's the real money-grabbing corporation, it's the real thievery, it's the real "man" gaining "profit off someone else's work". There are whole factories out there making pirate copies of games and music CDs, and stealing both from the authors, and from the people who buy the bootleg.

What we do, download games, may not be right, or proper, or justifiable, but it's really no big deal. As long as you don't say it's your right to download games (because it's really not) or whatever other excuse you come up with, who cares what you do. (Apart from some anal retentive district attorneys who go around fining grannies for piracy just because she had a 5 second snippet of her grandson's favourite song as a ringtone on her cellphone... )
 
Hitto raises a great point too, everyone steals - or at least disregards morals and acts unscrupulously. Nintendo infringed on others patents, violated antitrust laws/price fixing, intimidated retailers and had a whole monopoly going during the 80s and 90s.

No ones perfect, heh.

smile.gif
 
Is stealing justifiable?
If I was a starving kid, and I came into your house & stole everything from you, would you be cool with it?

Bullshit argument. It's not theft. You are not depriving anyone of a physical item, nor breaking and entering.

A more accurate argument would be "If I made an exact duplicate of everything you own for myself", which of course most people would say "go ahead".

You're using the exact same argument the industry uses, and it's bullshit, because you're not stealing anything. IT IS NOT THEFT! IT IS NOT the same as walking into a store and stealing a copy. It is not the same as breaking into a house. Is it not the same as stealing a car. It is MAKING A DUPLICATE OF SOMETHING.


Let me quote from like, almost every movie I've downloaded.
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QUOTE
"You wouldn't steal a car. You wouldn't steal a purse. You wouldn't steal... a movie. Downloading movies is stealing. Don't do it."

I laugh at them comparing getting off your ass and breaking into a car to just sitting on your ass doing a few mouseclicks, and spending the exact same amount of money (or more) on the various things you use to pay for that ability to download: A house, that i assume your computer's in, an internet connection which you would need to download, your electricity bill, which i'm sure is relatively higher than other peoples' especially if you leave your computer on 24/7 downloading stuff. And by the end of the 2.5weeks you spend waiting to download, you paid x amount of dollars for a $20 movie. Apply this to games and it fits in the realm of GBAtemp. Sorry i can't fill in 'x amount of dollars' but i'm still a minor and i don't pay for that stuff.
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Is stealing justifiable?
If I was a starving kid, and I came into your house & stole everything from you, would you be cool with it?

Bullshit argument. It's not theft. You are not depriving anyone of a physical item, nor breaking and entering.

A more accurate argument would be "If I made an exact duplicate of everything you own for myself", which of course most people would say "go ahead".

You're using the exact same argument the industry uses, and it's bullshit, because you're not stealing anything. IT IS NOT THEFT! IT IS NOT the same as walking into a store and stealing a copy. It is not the same as breaking into a house. Is it not the same as stealing a car. It is MAKING A DUPLICATE OF SOMETHING.

So if everyone in the world went about making duplicate copies of everything - for free, might I add - how would people generate money? They wouldn't. In fact, why would we even need money then? We could have everything for free, right? So there's no reason for us to even have money at all!

By duplicating a product, and not purchasing it yourself - you're depriving the company and/or people behind the production & marketing of the product a physical item - MONEY. Money is a physical item, isn't it?
 
By duplicating a product, and not purchasing it yourself - you're depriving the company and/or people behind the production & marketing of the product a physical item - MONEY. Money is a physical item, isn't it?
Read my previous post. We, the downloaders, are a mere speck on the losses generated by the real pirates who profit from piracy. We are barely noticeable. Any company who seriously counts on the money they would make off of us if we didn't download is making crazy baseless assumptions and deserves to fail. Actually factoring downloaders into a business accounting is bad business (and bad accounting). We can download all we want. We just don't matter that much. Just don't try and say it's justified.
 
I think piracy is justifiable as long as you buy as many games as you can reasonably afford, starting with the ones you enjoyed/played most (or starting politically with the one where the devs need the money most urgently
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). I am pirating a lot, trying every interesting game. I love that possibility and don't want to give it up. Yet, I now own 24 real DS cartridges. Without piracy I would not have bought so many, and especially not these ones because I would not know about many of these games or how great they are (Ouendan, Miss Spider, Phoenix Wright, Hotel Dusk, ...). Pirating and not buying anything because you can save money that way is unethical but in communism you always have to live with people abusing the system.
 
Intellectual property theft for personal gain (the real piracy) is both unjustifiable and wrong and can't be excused with "faceless corporations", "profit churning companies", " they make enough money on consoles". It's the real money-grabbing corporation, it's the real thievery, it's the real "man" gaining "profit off someone else's work". There are whole factories out there making pirate copies of games and music CDs, and stealing both from the authors, and from the people who buy the bootleg.

Absolutely agree 100%. THOSE are the people that time and money should be invested in taking down. But that actually requires work, and they can put up a decent legal defence. So the authorities don't even bother. No, they'd much rather take down some muppet in a cracking group than actual put real work in.

Darkforce: Don't forget Sony stealing the Dual Shock. Then you've got Microsoft, one of the most morally reprehensible companies on Earth if you read up on their history. (Highly recommend "Hard Drive" as a book to read on that. And that only covers to 1994!)

imgod: It's ridiculous. My big issue is pricing. A new game comes out for the PC, it's $60+. Yet within a few months, it's down to half that. They are clearly still making a profit, so the original $60 price is just an absolute moneygrab and nothing more. As for movies, I've downloaded a lot over the years, and ultimately wound up buying over 100 DVD's that I would never have bought had I not got that free "taste". Remember how Jack Valenti (burn in hell, Jack) went to the US government and said the VCR was akin to the Boston Strangler? It would kill the industry etc... Now that same industry makes most of it's money on DVD, the movie format that replaced the VCR where they built the home market for film.

Not only have I bought titles I've originally pirated (Warcraft 3 for example), I can also categorically state I have never bought a game because I couldn't pirate it.
 
For me its about supporting the developers and letting the publishers know that I want more games like the ones I buy.

This point I understand and agree with, I make a point of buying certain games new or at RRP in the hope that developers see that there is a market for that particular type of game on the particular console in question.



maybe later in the year I'll by it for under £5, or even just get a pre-owned copy for less.

This, I do not understand in the slightest. If I am incapable of piracy and I want to buy a game like GTA or some random film like Casino Royale (the creators are already making a hell of a profit and know where the market is, my purchase won't make a difference) then I'll try to get it pre-owned or in a clearance sale type-thing. However, if I am capable of piracy, there is no need whatsoever to go the 'cheap' route, either way the creators get nothing, the only difference is in my bank account.
 
By duplicating a product, and not purchasing it yourself - you're depriving the company and/or people behind the production & marketing of the product a physical item - MONEY. Money is a physical item, isn't it?
Read my previous post. We, the downloaders, are a mere speck on the losses generated by the real pirates who profit from piracy. We are barely noticeable. Any company who seriously counts on the money they would make off of us if we didn't download is making crazy baseless assumptions and deserves to fail. Actually factoring downloaders into a business accounting is bad business (and bad accounting). We can download all we want. We just don't matter that much. Just don't try and say it's justified.

Ok, so let's assume then that "we, the downloaders", are a meagre 50 million people (worldwide).
The average game, we'll say, is about $30 CAD or USD. Let's say that this company made 50 million copies of this game.
It would take ONE person to backup the game onto their computer, and then 49,999,999 other people have access to it - without having to leave the comfort of their own home.
Anyone know what 49,999,999 x $30 is?
 
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to UncleChuckle

Never heard it expressed as perfectly, undeniably clear as the way you said it. Like you said, its not theft, its a copy-right violation...as in the company has the RIGHT to make COPY(ie)s of the game in question, not you, and you VIOLATE that right under whatever law you want to use as a claim.

The important thing to me is that its not morally wrong under my religious beliefs unless you STEAL the company's PROFIT by selling copies of your own.

I believe if you want the hard copy of a game, pressed in the factory, usually guaranteed to play in the system you purchase, exempt of legal worries, then you go and buy the disc. Don't know the sources for early releases, or a number string data version of a game but you know a store says theyll have it on tuesday? Wait for them to open, pay for your disc, and go home and play. Don't want to get banned on Xbox Live? Go to the store, buy the disc that guarantees you in a way not to be banned, at the very least not permanently if there is a mix up, and have fun.

I also believe that its up to the company to secure their products, much more so than they have a moral right to punish you for learning yourself some infoz about hacking your way into them. You don't see anybody actually utilizing PS3 backups for much now do you? That's because as of now the system hasnt been hacked. So what does sony get? Money from gamers who dont want to wait for a hack or dont know what hacking's all about.

Ill finish up my potentially infinity-long argument by saying that Nintendo's got the right idea. Get the claimable price ($250) down below other next gen consoles, market towards the technologically-unsavvy, and dont waste too much time or energy securing every possible route into the system, i.e: DVD firmware hack. What's the end result? The Wii follows its DS brother and prints money due to exceedingly large quantities of comparably inexpensively produced console and games sold to all the people who don't hack, and the hackers end up being happy too. It's just the perfectly happy scenario for Nintendo, they aren't going away anytime soon.

Afterthought: Too bad though that their plan results in lots of really crappy games marketed towards the older/younger uninformed folk in addition to the fun innovative games...
 
Ok, so let's assume then that "we, the downloaders", are a meagre 50 million people (worldwide).
The average game, we'll say, is about $30 CAD or USD. Let's say that this company made 50 million copies of this game.
It would take ONE person to backup the game onto their computer, and then 49,999,999 other people have access to it - without having to leave the comfort of their own home.
Anyone know what 49,999,999 x $30 is?

Point me to any game or film that has received that many illegal downloads.
 
For me its about supporting the developers and letting the publishers know that I want more games like the ones I buy.

This point I understand and agree with, I make a point of buying certain games new or at RRP in the hope that developers see that there is a market for that particular type of game on the particular console in question.



maybe later in the year I'll by it for under £5, or even just get a pre-owned copy for less.

This, I do not understand in the slightest. If I am incapable of piracy and I want to buy a game like GTA or some random film like Casino Royale (the creators are already making a hell of a profit and know where the market is, my purchase won't make a difference) then I'll try to get it pre-owned or in a clearance sale type-thing. However, if I am capable of piracy, there is no need whatsoever to go the 'cheap' route, either way the creators get nothing, the only difference is in my bank account.
Nothing to understand, I like to have a proper copy of something thats all, its nice to have in the collection.
 
Is stealing justifiable?
If I was a starving kid, and I came into your house & stole everything from you, would you be cool with it?

Bullshit argument. It's not theft. You are not depriving anyone of a physical item, nor breaking and entering.

A more accurate argument would be "If I made an exact duplicate of everything you own for myself", which of course most people would say "go ahead".

You're using the exact same argument the industry uses, and it's bullshit, because you're not stealing anything. IT IS NOT THEFT! IT IS NOT the same as walking into a store and stealing a copy. It is not the same as breaking into a house. Is it not the same as stealing a car. It is MAKING A DUPLICATE OF SOMETHING.

So if everyone in the world went about making duplicate copies of everything - for free, might I add - how would people generate money? They wouldn't. In fact, why would we even need money then? We could have everything for free, right? So there's no reason for us to even have money at all!

By duplicating a product, and not purchasing it yourself - you're depriving the company and/or people behind the production & marketing of the product a physical item - MONEY. Money is a physical item, isn't it?

You are not depriving someone of money. If you went back and read what I said you'd realise that. You are working on the INDUSTRY statement that every pirated copy is a lost sale, which it clearly isn't. Plus money is not a physical item either. It's an intangible. It exists only in a computer. Yes, you have some in your wallet. But the money in business doesn't physically exist. What? You think the software industry has vast vaults of notes from their sales? LOL!

The folk who work for EA still get paid whether I buy FIFA 2007 or pirate it. They were paid for their work long before the item came to market.

In short you're making a ridiculous leap.
 
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