How do you feel about abortion?

[x65943]

At conception.
When does life begin for you?

if a baby dies before the baby is born, does the mother still not grieve?

isn't it still a life, even if potential?

Personally I would not choose conception.

I think life begins when the mind is complex enough to first become conscious. Which is not an easily identifiable time mind you. Although it does mean I don't consider embryos to be protectable human lives which have yet to form brains.

The mourning status of a mother does not confer life. A mother might think that she was pregnant - and she really wasn't, and so she believes she has a miscarriage - and mourns. This example showcases how emotions should not get in the way of defining life. As they are inherently flawed/divorced from logic.

 

[Ryab]

Personally I would not choose conception.

I think life begins when the mind is complex enough to first become conscious. Which is not an easily identifiable time mind you. Although it does mean I don't consider embryos to be protectable human lives which have yet to form brains.

The mourning status of a mother does not confer life. A mother might think that she was pregnant - and she really wasn't, and so she believes she has a miscarriage - and mourns. This example showcases how emotions should not get in the way of defining life. As they are inherently flawed/divorced from logic.

I think of it as Take responsibility for your actions if you are going to be a parent then thats on you though if you are sure you cannot take care of the child then at least give it a chance at life with someone else

 

[x65943]

I think of it as Take responsibility for your actions if you are going to be a parent then thats on you though if you are sure you cannot take care of the child then at least give it a chance at life with someone else

I agree that if the child is close to term you should birth it and give it up for adoption.

However if the embryo is so rudimentary that it could scarcely be called life - do as you will.

2nd trimester abortions are not really justifiable in my opinion. You get 3 months to make your decision.

 

[The Catboy]

Do you have any numbers? Just curious.
"Safe sex" How... you say Safe sex, like Having a baby is a bad thing.


Okay, The baby Shouldn't be forced to give up his/hers life either, should they? and do you know for a fact that the child will have a horrible life? my parents were told I was gonna have Down sydrome, with some other problems, and suggested they aborted. I don't have down syndrome, and I don't have the problems.
It shouldn't, but it's still Life, is it not?


Okay, but aren't Japanese, Or chinese populations going down? due to Abortion, and other problems?

Do I have any numbers for what? People who don't casually have abortions? I don't see why I need numbers for that as I doubt numbers are even kept or accurately represented.
Having a child is a bad thing if someone can't provide the means of taking care of that child. I would be an example of someone who shouldn't have a child. I have several medical conditions that can be passed down, including an immune system disorder that has been slowly destroying my nervous system. I am more than likely going to die before I hit 50. I also have bipolar disorder that makes it hard to even feed myself, let alone be able to take care of a child. I am just one example of countless people who shouldn't have kids. That doesn't mean we shouldn't be able to have sex, it means we should be able to use safe sex to prevent ourselves from having kids.

A early stage fetus isn't a life and has no emotions, no feelings, no brain, it's a cluster of cells. You really think someone forced to carry a baby created out of rape is going to be ok? You really think they are going to be fine seeing a child who's going to have some resemblance to their rapist "father" is going to be dealing well with that? No, they are not going to be ok. You need to consider how the parent is going to have to deal with this situation and the long term effects something like this would leave on a woman. Being raped is a horrible thing, but being forced to live with a reminder of that rape is just cruel. I don't see how your situation relates to this, but given if they did abort, then you simply wouldn't exist. That's simply a fact, your life simply wouldn't exist. If my mother aborted me, then I wouldn't exist. There's really nothing more to that, there's no spirit/ghost.

In Japan the population is going due to an aging population dying off and a younger population not wanting to have kids. China is multiple issues with culture and politics. Regardless they aren't losing large portions of their population due to abortions and also you still aren't getting the point. The only literal way death can actually effect the population to a noticeable rate, would be if literally millions of people suddenly died all at once. There's countless people dying, yes, but not a massive amount to completely offset babies being born.
I do have a question though. What is better, a safe doctor's office where medical staff, clean tools, etc are available to provide a safe abortion or a back ally? Because abortions are always going to happen, just the location is going to change

 

[Ryab]

I agree that if the child is close to term you should birth it and give it up for adoption.

However if the embryo is so rudimentary that it could scarcely be called life - do as you will.

2nd trimester abortions are not really justifiable on my opinion. You get 3 months to make your decision.

Ah I feel that you shouldnt at all but then again I have very different feelings when it comes to relationships in general. When I first started dating when i was around 16 I Mainly looked forward to sex and things like that obviously that is not something you should expect now I am in it for the bonds and happiness you make with people

 

[FAST6191]

At conception.
When does life begin for you?

Why conception? I struggle to visualise a line of logic that leads there, or at least why there and not a bit later at implantation, or a bit earlier before the gametes have fused.

 

[DeoNaught]

Personally I would not choose conception.

I think life begins when the mind is complex enough to first become conscious. Which is not an easily identifiable time mind you. Although it does mean I don't consider embryos to be protect able human lives which have yet to form brains.

Not when the heart starts beating? If your heart stops beating, you are most likely dead.

The mourning status of a mother does not confer life. A mother might think that she was pregnant - and she really wasn't, and so she believes she has a miscarriage - and mourns. This example showcases how emotions should not get in the way of defining life. As they are inherently flawed/divorced from logic.

I like your point, it's legitimate, and emotions shouldn't Effect anything, emotions change, but truth won't.

2nd trimester abortions are not really justifiable on my opinion. You get 3 months to make your decision.

Should it be Persecuted as a crime of murder(after 2nd trimester)? like, even if it's told as a crime, people will still do it, so what would be punishment?

Question, Big bang theory, weren't we just a jumble of cells at one point, but yet we consider it the beginning of life?

(also @x65943 You're very civil)

Do I have any numbers for what? People who don't casually have abortions? I don't see why I need numbers for that as I doubt numbers are even kept or accurately represented.
Having a child is a bad thing if someone can't provide the means of taking care of that child. I would be an example of someone who shouldn't have a child. I have several medical conditions that can be passed down, including an immune system disorder that has been slowly destroying my nervous system. I am more than likely going to die before I hit 50. I also have bipolar disorder that makes it hard to even feed myself, let alone be able to take care of a child. I am just one example of countless people who shouldn't have kids. That doesn't mean we shouldn't be disallowed to have sex, which means we should be using safe sex to prevent ourselves from having kids.

Okay, but isn't the basis of sex to have kids?

A early stage fetus isn't a life and has no emotions, no feelings, no brain, it's a cluster of cells. You really think someone forced to carry a baby created out of rape is going to be ok? You really think they are going to be fine seeing a child who's going to have some resemblance to their rapist "father" is going to be dealing well with that? No, they are not going to be ok. You need to consider how the parent is going to have to deal with this situation and the long term effects something like this would leave on a woman. Being raped is a horrible thing, but being forced to live with a reminder of that rape is just cruel. I don't see how your situation relates to this, but given if they did abort, then you simply wouldn't exist. That's simply a fact, your life simply wouldn't exist. If my mother aborted me, then I wouldn't exist. There's really nothing more to that, there's no spirit/ghost.

Okay, I have reminders of horrible shit that's happened to me, I have to live with it too. Being raped is a horrible thing, No one is disagreeing with you. Take the child at nine months(when born), and then the mother doesn't have to see the thing that reminds her of what happened to her.
My point is, That I was told I was going to have certain problems, and they suggested Abortion, so I wouldn't have to live with the problems, I don't have those problem. Though in your case, they will most likely be inherited, because you have it first hand. and it's dominate.

When is it okay to abort for you?

Why conception? I struggle to visualise a line of logic that leads there, or at least why there and not a bit later at implantation, or a bit earlier before the gametes have fused.

Even if it's possible life, it's still life?

 

[FAST6191]

Even if it's possible life, it's still life?

It is possible to make life from scratch these days
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10132762
https://www.nature.com/news/minimal-cell-raises-stakes-in-race-to-harness-synthetic-life-1.19633

Equally is rubbing one out a mass murder? Does a woman having a period count?

Why use potential as the marker? Why not potential to experience suffering?

 

[StarTrekVoyager]

Yup. The argument for "possible life" is completely ridiculous nowadays. You can get life from skin cells by de-evolving them into stem cells and re-evolving them into gametes. So what? If you touch your skin, making thousands of skin cells fall, you're killing babies?

 

[TotalInsanity4]

At conception.
When does life begin for you?

if a baby dies before the baby is born, does the mother still not grieve?

isn't it still a life, even if potential?

No, it's not. It is categorically not life if the thing you're analyzing is not capable of breathing, thinking for, or feeding itself on its own, it is not alive. Anti-abortion stances are always based on religious or scientific misconceptions (no pun intended) in that regard, and it seems like you not only have no clue what the biological sciences behind pregnancy is, but given your comments on sex I would have to say that your grasp on sex ed isn't that firm, either. Finally, I'd like to take the opportunity to say that I firmly stand behind everything Lilith just said, especially since you seem to be of the mind that preventing a birth would be in any way worse than the pain a child would face in a household not capable of taking care of it; how would that be less of a punishment than a procedure that, when done early enough, causes no harm to the mother and causes no pain to the "potential child" (given the fact that the bundle of cells wouldn't have even developed a functional nervous system yet). And, furthermore, if you have the audacity to suggest that people considering an abortion go through with the birth and give the child to an adoption agency, I have exactly two things to say: 1) do you have any idea how much TRAUMA that puts on the mother, not only going through with a birth that she wasn't planning for, but also giving up what IS NOW an actual LIVING, BREATHING human being to a third party?, and 2) if you so much as THINK that adoption is a viable alternative, I would encourage you to live within the adoption system for a year and come back and tell that to my face. I haven't personally experienced it myself, but I know people who have been in the system and have heard (and on a few occasions witnessed) the horror stories of underfunded, oversaturated adoption systems that end up holding onto kids for a full 18 years without them ever having a parent figure. Again I ask, how is THAT more humane?

 

[x65943]

Not when the heart starts beating? If your heart stops beating, you are most likely dead.


I like your point, it's legitimate, and emotions shouldn't Effect anything, emotions change, but truth won't.


Should it be Persecuted as a crime of murder(after 2nd trimester)? like, even if it's told as a crime, people will still do it, so what would be punishment?

Question, Big bang theory, weren't we just a jumble of cells at one point, but yet we consider it the beginning of life?

(also @x65943 You're very civil)


Okay, but isn't the basis of sex to have kids?


Okay, I have reminders of horrible shit that's happened to me, I have to live with it too. Being raped is a horrible thing, No one is disagreeing with you. Take the child at nine months(when born), and then the mother doesn't have to see the thing that reminds her of what happened to her.
My point is, That I was told I was going to have certain problems, and they suggested Abortion, so I wouldn't have to live with the problems, I don't have those problem. Though in your case, they will most likely be inherited, because you have it first hand. and it's dominate.

When is it okay to abort for you?


Even if it's possible life, it's still life?

Personally I think the heart beating does not confer life either. This is why the "brain dead" are considered dead, even if their hearts continue to beat. The brain dead are generally harvested for organs. The organ donor registry can only receive organs from the brain dead - because those without a beating heart will have dead organs as well.

Sure we tend to call someone's time of death based on the heart ceasing to beat, but we know the brain usually survives a few minutes longer. This is why you can shock someone's heart back into pumping, and they can survive.

There are even people with heart replacement pumps that cause blood to flow. Bottom line - the one organ you can never replace is the brain. It's what makes you, you.

Brain death is the true death - if someone's brain is gone there is no coming back.

As for prosecution. I think the practitioners should be the ones prosecuted - not the vulnerable women. I think drug and sex trafficking should be prosecuted the same way - get the dealers not the users.

 

[FAST6191]

Personally I think the heart beating does not confer life either. This is why the "brain dead" are considered dead, even if their hearts continue to beat. The brain dead are generally harvested for organs. The organ donor registry can only receive organs from the brain dead - because those without a beating heart will have dead organs as well.

Sure we tend to call someone's time of death based on the heart ceasing to beat, but we know the brain usually survives a few minutes longer. This is why you can shock someone's heart back into pumping, and they can survive.

There are even people with heart replacement pumps that cause blood to flow. Bottom line - the one organ you can never replace is the brain. It's what makes you, you.

Brain death is the true death - if someone's brain is gone there is no coming back.

As far as the heart stuff goes you might have seen too many medical TV shows there -- you don't shock asystole (a flat line) https://acls-algorithms.com/asystole/ . Shocks are for beats not doing what they should. Similarly you will usually see/hear "down for" in the discussion surrounding it, that being because the heart has not been beating sufficiently for so long that the brain is gone.

Also while I agree with the "brain is you" bit (any magic time travelling medics reading this please absolutely ensure you save my brain's info before you save any other part of me) there is a very long line of contemplation of the human condition that also considers the body it is in. The whole nature vs nurture, limitations and such all contributing massively to the psychology of the brain -- part of my risk taking might well because I am male but at the same time I am fairly tall, strong and physically fit with reasonable reactions/awareness and a pain tolerance that makes some wonder, not to mention living in the modern world with some pretty sweet medicine, all leading me to routinely come out the other side of things people tell me are risky or hard and this informs quite a few things for how I approach the world.

 

[x65943]

As far as the heart stuff goes you might have seen too many medical TV shows there -- you don't shock asystole (a flat line) https://acls-algorithms.com/asystole/ . Shocks are for beats not doing what they should. Similarly you will usually see/hear "down for" in the discussion surrounding it, that being because the heart has not been beating sufficiently for so long that the brain is gone.

Also while I agree with the "brain is you" bit (any magic time travelling medics reading this please absolutely ensure you save my brain's info before you save any other part of me) there is a very long line of contemplation of the human condition that also considers the body it is in. The whole nature vs nurture, limitations and such all contributing massively to the psychology of the brain -- part of my risk taking might well because I am male but at the same time I am fairly tall, strong and physically fit with reasonable reactions/awareness and a pain tolerance that makes some wonder, not to mention living in the modern world with some pretty sweet medicine, all leading me to routinely come out the other side of things people tell me are risky or hard and this informs quite a few things for how I approach the world.

You don't shock asystole, but you do shock hearts that stop beating. Asystole is absence of all electrical signals. However, your heart can stop beating with vfib or other erratic electrical patterns. Hence why you can be pulseless during vfib.

Oh yeah I do things all the time that I would never consider if there was no modern medicine. I would probably never roller blade because even a scrape on my leg could lead to bacteremia and sepsis. I definitely would not be heading to Vietnam this summer where malaria reigns free either.

 

[slaphappygamer]

You have no say even if it is your baby.

By having a “say”, I just meant to be included in a discussion. I wouldnt give a hard “no” or “yes”.

 

[DeslotlCL]

How is abortion killing a human life, if the fetus isnt considered alive until certain months and after the brain starts functioning?

I mean, dont shitstorm me on that, but isnt it like a fact and what only prevents abortion from being legalized in most countries are the religion itself and its morals and "facts" from like 99999999999 years from the past?

 

[x65943]

How is abortion killing a human life, if the fetus isnt considered alive until certain months and after the brain starts functioning?

I mean, dont shitstorm me on that, but isnt it like a fact and what only prevents abortion from being legalized in most countries are the religion itself and its morals and "facts" from like 99999999999 years from the past?

>if the fetus isnt considered alive
This is the crux of the issue. No one can say when life starts - and so no one can really be right in this debate. This is why the issue is ongoing. It's subjective.

 

[DeslotlCL]

>if the fetus isnt considered alive
This is the crux of the issue. No one can say when life starts - and so no one can really be right in this debate. This is why the issue is ongoing. It's subjective.

It is far from subjetive if there are a lot of lecture that points if the brain activity ends, life ends there and that also when brain activity starts, life starts there. I dont know how much hard that is to understand.

 

[JellyPerson]

Abstinence=best birth control

Imo you should only have sex with the intent to make a child, but you know not everyone may agree with me.

 

[FAST6191]

>if the fetus isnt considered alive
This is the crux of the issue. No one can say when life starts - and so no one can really be right in this debate. This is why the issue is ongoing. It's subjective.

While we may never be able to reach a physics style level of certainty I would say we can draw enough parallels from everything else we consider just and righteous as far as willingness to accept and inflict suffering* to allow it, as indeed most countries and ethics groups appear to have. That might be close to an argumentum ad populum there but I would like to think it the result of a considered debate before then.

*life starts is not the best phrase from where I sit, mostly because of the overlap issue I mentioned earlier.

 

[x65943]

It is far from subjetive if there are a lot of lecture that points if the brain activity ends, life ends there and that also when brain activity starts, life starts there. I dont know how much hard that is to understand.

The fact that some professors say life begins and ends with the brain is far from objective. No matter of consensus concerning a purely subjective topic will ever produce an objective fact.

Consider this - the bacterium has no brain whatsoever - yet it is living, yes?

So you can't say a human life is defined objectively.

I see your point, and I happen to agree. My opinion also is that human life starts with brain development. However - you must admit our opinions are opinions, and it ends at that. We can't pretend that the debate can be settled through reason alone.