Ground Zero Mosque. Yes or No?

[TrolleyDave]

He didn't kill Jewish people for their religion though. He killed them because of his belief in eugenics, his belief that they were an inferior race and much more.

 

[_Chaz_]

He didn't kill Jewish people for their religion though. He killed them because of his belief in eugenics, his belief that they were an inferior race and much more.

The only thing that separated them from other people was their religion.

 

[TrolleyDave]

He didn't kill Jewish people for their religion though. He killed them because of his belief in eugenics, his belief that they were an inferior race and much more.

The only thing that separated them from other people was their religion.

The Nazis saw them as a race.

 

[_Chaz_]

He didn't kill Jewish people for their religion though. He killed them because of his belief in eugenics, his belief that they were an inferior race and much more.

The only thing that separated them from other people was their religion.

The Nazis saw them as a race.

...

The Nazis were wrong...

 

[TrolleyDave]

...

The Nazis were wrong...

I agree. You don't have to have descended from the original Judaic tribes to be considered Jewish so there's no race involved.

 

[Bri]

They killed jews.
This is true.


Not just Jews (who they viewed as a race rather than a religion) but also Roma (Gypsies), Poles, Ethnic Serbs, the disabled, the mentally ill, homosexuals, Freemasons, Jehovah's Witnesses, and others.

The Nazis were using race rather than religion to justify their actions.

There are many other examples of ethnic cleansing where race and ethnicity rather than religion have been used to justify murdering innocent people.

QUOTE(TrolleyDave @ Aug 24 2010, 06:56 PM)

I agree. You don't have to have descended from the original Judaic tribes to be considered Jewish so there's no race involved.

There are at least two definitions of "Jew," one referring to a member of the Jewish religion and another referring to a descendant of the original Judaic tribes.

-Bri

 

[FluffyLunamoth]

Can we have a poll option of "Don't give a shit"?

 

[Zetta_x]

I put no because people are way to devoted towards religion. Just last Sunday I went to Church and I remembered why I abandoned religion all together. In my opinion, the last thing we need is to support more religious activities. Not the fact that I don't believe in traditional religion, but because people get too crazy by religious ideas and none of them ever consider the possibility that what they are thinking is not true. Really, if there exists a God (which I believe), do we really need books, churches, and all these expensive things to learn about God? The fact we have to study religion by books, churches, and other possible exploits for bias people to insert their own teachings is terrorizing our community, not bombers.

 

[Blood Fetish]

Basically what you are saying is freedom of speech should only apply to what you think is right, and everyone else should be forcibly silenced?

EDIT:
I think a better way of phrasing this is, if these were houses would you all protest Muslims moving into one? If not, why would you oppose this and what is different about it?

 

[Zetta_x]

I don't know if that was directed towards me.

I've been lost in my mind for several months now. What I have noticed is that there is really no such thing as good or bad. When something is deemed good or bad it has to be in respect to some opinion. Everything in my post above was by my opinion obviously not shared by many people.

 

[Fudge]

I don't care. They can build whatever they want if they own the land.

 

[Yoshimashin]

They should erect a giant bronze statue of Bush Jr with a cavalry saber pointing out towards battle!

 

[Overlord Nadrian]

They killed jews.

This is true.

Not just Jews (who they viewed as a race rather than a religion) but also Roma (Gypsies), Poles, Ethnic Serbs, the disabled, the mentally ill, homosexuals, Freemasons, Jehovah's Witnesses, and others.

They called the jews a 'race', but there was still a difference in religion.

 

[Bri]

They killed jews.This is true.Not just Jews (who they viewed as a race rather than a religion) but also Roma (Gypsies), Poles, Ethnic Serbs, the disabled, the mentally ill, homosexuals, Freemasons, Jehovah's Witnesses, and others.

They called the jews a 'race', but there was still a difference in religion.

I think you're missing the point. You said:


QUOTE(Ellie @ Aug 24 2010, 03:05 PM)

It'd be hard to justify the killings of thousands of innocents in name of anything other than God/religion.

The Nazis didn't kill the Jews in the name of religion. They didn't even kill the Jews because of their religion. Nor did they kill all those other groups of people because of their religion. There are plenty of examples of killing innocents in the name of things other than religion (culture, race, politics, geographic location, etc). Pretty much anything you can think of that distinguishes your group of people from another group of people can be used as justification for killing innocent members of that other group, usually by systematically instilling fear and resentment towards that other group.

In America, individuals have certain basic rights regardless of what group they belong to in order to avoid the slippery slope to discrimination and persecution (which was the primary reason that our European founders came here to begin with). Of course this country isn't immune to systematic discrimination and persecution of innocent people (the Trail of Tears, slavery, and Japanese internment are some examples). Let's not repeat the mistakes of history.

-Bri

 

[TrolleyDave]

I agree. You don't have to have descended from the original Judaic tribes to be considered Jewish so there's no race involved.

There are at least two definitions of "Jew," one referring to a member of the Jewish religion and another referring to a descendant of the original Judaic tribes.

-Bri

Agreed. But at the same time there were other groups indigenous to the area where the Judaic tribes were from who shared the same "race" (for want of a better word). Their descendants are not classified as Jewish, so in my opinion "race" really plays no part in "Jewishness". Kahanists would disagree obviously. It's not really much different than Christians, Muslims or Buddhists. There are those that descend from the original followers, but it in no way defines a necessary characteristic of being a follower of the religion.

 

[VmprHntrD]

I voted no, but it's with a proviso. Nothing against Islam nor their need for another center, but I think it could go wisely elsewhere considering there's already one near by as is a few more blocks away.

I originally didn't give a damn, and I was and still think it's their right to freedom of religion anywhere they like, but also had I a face in it I'd not say 'witch hunt' but try and talk to them about a nicer and hell safer for them place (enough nuts in NYC as is angry about it.) The problem is the head developer we've seen lately in the press at first was pretty nice and calm about it, but now he's getting super snappy, ignoring questions, and taking a huge fuck you I'll do what I want attitude. The tude though is pointed when asked about the feelings of the victims of a decade ago and their families, about respecting the 'zone' due to the landmark status being developed up there and the rest. The guy seems to be backing himself into this spot of saying I'm right, you're wrong, don't give a shit about any victims or their family/friends, and islam will prevail wherever it damn well pleases.

At this rate he pisses me off as it gives me thoughts of thinking this is being a targeted construction to stick it to the stupid Americans and infidels. It just seems fishy being all open and ok about it, then turning into a bitch about it and clamming up acting like a kid crying in the sandbox that it's hit toys and he'll play whenever and wherever he wants. Also the Imam of the place appears to be an America hater as is with clips that have popped up (audio/video) and one who feels sharia law should be edict in this nation as we're ripe for its take over due to our 'open' laws. It just throws up too many red flags as a big intentional slap to the face to help promote extremism and stupidity of islamo-fascism right on the grounds of the biggest attack of twats like that on our soil.

 

[Blood Fetish]

Doesn't honor the memory of the victims, even though there are fast food chains, strip clubs, and more in the same block?

If you admire the US then you must love the constitution, right? If so, then why would you deny them the right to build there? Freedom of religion.
Do you think that because you disagree with someone or do not like their "attitude" they should lose their right to build there? Freedom of speech.

 

[BlueStar]

Doesn't honor the memory of the victims, even though there are fast food chains, strip clubs, and more in the same block?

I know, OMG, did you hear? They built a ground zero McDonalds! And it has a bathroom! People have been shitting on ground zero! Because, you know, everything within two blocks is the 'ground zero' edition of that building.

The shrill hysteria over this would be hilarious if people don't really believe it, some people need to give their head a shake.

 

[SylvWolf]

I've pretty much lost interest in this issue by this point. It's been blown way out of proportion and the arguments are never-ending, as nobody is ever willing to give up their ideological stance.

The only thing that still kinda pisses me off is that when a school shooting (or equivalent firearm-related tragedy) happens, Liberals decry and demonize the Second Amendment, but when something like this happens, they glorify the First. Ugh.

 

[Blood Fetish]

The entire right-vs-left thing is fabricated by the media to keep the general populace under control. I recognize that I am definitely more "left" leaning than "right", and I am a huge proponent of the second amendment (and all others). Only fools vote according to the party line instead of the issues.