Hacking FULL SPEED PS1 emulator on 3DS?

[Rydian]

Mobile processors are weaker than desktop processors in order to produce less heat and run off a battery. In addition, and processors for systems like this tend to be a bit limited since they're not going to try to run everything under the sun.

 

[kotsumu]

Sorry, I don't believe that 3DS will be able to run a PSX emulator.
I'm bored in class so explaining my reasoning will kill sometime. Don't read this if it'll waste your time.

The reason why emulators such as SNES, GBA, N64 or DS is possible in certain platforms. It's because the computing power of what ever we are emulating with is exponentially powerful than that of their predecessor.

Think about it in a theoretical concept. Let us say that a PSX has a computing power of 3 and our current technology allows us to have a computing power of 15. Since the system emulating need to have a exponentially powerful computing power, we will say that the theoretical minimum requirement in order to emulate a PSX is 3^2 = 9. We are therefore able to emulate a PSX with our current system.

Now let us assume what you said is true, that a 3DS is more powerful than a PSX. Of course 3DS does not have as much computational power as our best systems right now, so lets give it a good 8 rating, well above the PSX. However, remember that the required computing power of PSX is 3^2 = 9, thus 3DS fails to fall withing the requirements.

If computing power increases linearly, as statistics have shown, our technology cannot catch up with the increase in the requirement of computing power in order to emulate such systems. Our computational power will increase from 15 then 17,19,21 and so on...While the systems developed from our current technology will increase like that of a 3DS from 8,10,12,14 and so on. Our requirement will be increasing from 8^2,10^2,12^2,14^2....

and blah blah blah, got lazy XD

 

[Ghostyis40]

Do to what we know of the from the released specs thus far I don't believe its to far fetched actually I think its very plausible. Heck the look at the PSP its running the N64 and people said it couldn't be done granted work is still being done on the emulator, that goes with out saying just about every emulator on the web right now has seen updates. So short answer, yes the 3DS will go the route of the Wii you can bet your money on that like with all things just give it some time.

 

[Oveneise]

I highly doubt it. And if so, it would probably be rather slow. I hope someone proves me wrong, though.

 

[Rydian]

It's not just the main processor's power that determines how hard a system is to emulate. That's just the first hurdle.

 

[Spongeroberto]

I think the system might handle it... but the real question is: how would you map the controls?

 

[Net_Bastard]

The Wii can run a PSX emulator.


The specs of the 3DS are very similar to that of a Wii (I don't know about the architecture, and since that means a lot when emulating something, then my opinion may or may not be accurate. I'm only assuming that the architecture is similar to a Wii)


Definitely not a full-speed PSX emulator, but it can still run a PSX emulator, I think.

 

[altorn]

CPU instruction sets.
Emulator Coding.
Very possible.

 

[ultimatt42]

The 3DS isn't really similar to the Wii at all. ARM vs PPC, dual-core vs single-core, GX vs OpenGL ES, 128MB RAM vs 24MB. The in-game graphics might look similar in quality, but that's rarely relevant when you're talking about emulation.

I'd guess it really comes down to the CPU. We don't know how fast the 3DS CPU is yet, but credible rumors say it's a dual-core ARM11 running at 266 MHz (totally reasonable, considering it would be twice the DSi's clock rate). If that's true... it MIGHT be possible. A 266 MHz 32-bit ARM isn't going to be any better at emulating a 64-bit MIPS than the Wii's 64-bit PowerPC, though, and I don't remember that emulator running very smoothly at all.

I'm gonna go with "Maybe, but not full speed".

 

[koji2009]

Sorry, I don't believe that 3DS will be able to run a PSX emulator.
I'm bored in class so explaining my reasoning will kill sometime. Don't read this if it'll waste your time.

The reason why emulators such as SNES, GBA, N64 or DS is possible in certain platforms. It's because the computing power of what ever we are emulating with is exponentially powerful than that of their predecessor.

Think about it in a theoretical concept. Let us say that a PSX has a computing power of 3 and our current technology allows us to have a computing power of 15. Since the system emulating need to have a exponentially powerful computing power, we will say that the theoretical minimum requirement in order to emulate a PSX is 3^2 = 9. We are therefore able to emulate a PSX with our current system.

Now let us assume what you said is true, that a 3DS is more powerful than a PSX. Of course 3DS does not have as much computational power as our best systems right now, so lets give it a good 8 rating, well above the PSX. However, remember that the required computing power of PSX is 3^2 = 9, thus 3DS fails to fall withing the requirements.

If computing power increases linearly, as statistics have shown, our technology cannot catch up with the increase in the requirement of computing power in order to emulate such systems. Our computational power will increase from 15 then 17,19,21 and so on...While the systems developed from our current technology will increase like that of a 3DS from 8,10,12,14 and so on. Our requirement will be increasing from 8^2,10^2,12^2,14^2....

and blah blah blah, got lazy XD

First off... whoever told you you need an exponentially more powerful system to emulate was wrong. The SNES has a 3.58mhz processor... My 400mhz desktop at the time couldn't emulate it at full speed (well, full game speed but not 60fps). That's far more than exponential. Indeed the SAME 400mhz computer could emulate an N64 with mario 64, 400mhz is not exponentially higher than 98mhz proceesor.

It's not just a matter of a system being complex, but rather how similar the two architectures are, how well optimized they are, and other factors like bandwidth between components.

 

[Deleted member 256505]

The GP2X at 500MHz is at least 2-4x more powerful than the 3DS.

I wasn't aware we knew how powerful the 3DS was...

Since the 3DS has been released already, why don't we know the specs? Is the hardware too hard to identify in the handheld? Sorry, it's just that I'm still not sure why the full specs haven't been released yet.

 

[koji2009]

The problem is that it's a custom ARM processor... Since ARM is an open standard anyone can take the designs and then make a custom processor, setting their own speed, cache, feature set, etc.
The only thing we know for a fact about this custom ARM is that... well... it's an ARM processor. That and that it's got a PICA200 chip of some make integrated into it.

The only way we'll ever find out exactly it features is if we get ahold of an official Nintendo Spec sheet or an SDK or someone takes the chip apart and uses an electron microscope on it.

 

[Deleted member 256505]

Okay, I understand now. Thanks.

 

[Rydian]

Yeah, for example byuu (BSNES author) knows a guy that will decap and get info on chips, and it literally does involve an acidic solution and then scanning the chip with an electron microscope... the guy charges $250 per chip, and these are SNES game chips he scans, not something like the 3DS.

Companies often don't want info about their parts out there because they don't want clones.

 

[ferret7463]

The problem is that it's a custom ARM processor... Since ARM is an open standard anyone can take the designs and then make a custom processor, setting their own speed, cache, feature set, etc.
The only thing we know for a fact about this custom ARM is that... well... it's an ARM processor. That and that it's got a PICA200 chip of some make integrated into it.

The only way we'll ever find out exactly it features is if we get ahold of an official Nintendo Spec sheet or an SDK or someone takes the chip apart and uses an electron microscope on it.

is there not a way to remove the processor and run benchmark test on it?

 

[koji2009]

Err... well... the easiest way to do that would be to write native code on the native device. The problem is we can't do that...

The only other way would be to desolder the chip from the 3DS board, then create a custom PCB and rewire it to run through something like USB or something like that... Then you'd have to completely program and run an interface between the two systems and then write code for it... Since it is an ARM, there are probably some basic commands that could easily be worked up and run on it... but uh... To be able to do proper pin layouts and everything else, you'd need to know how the processor works... which would again go back to technical spec sheets, or an electron microscope

Those really are our only choices on finding out anything... Either an official leaked document, or a successful hack where we can run code natively.

 

[Zarxrax]

The SNES has a 3.58mhz processor... My 400mhz desktop at the time couldn't emulate it at full speed (well, full game speed but not 60fps). That's far more than exponential. Indeed the SAME 400mhz computer could emulate an N64 with mario 64, 400mhz is not exponentially higher than 98mhz proceesor.

What? Your PC could run an N64 emulator but not SNES? That sounds more like user error to me

I was running SNES games at full speed on a 166mhz processor in the late 1990's.

 

[DiscostewSM]

The SNES has a 3.58mhz processor... My 400mhz desktop at the time couldn't emulate it at full speed (well, full game speed but not 60fps). That's far more than exponential. Indeed the SAME 400mhz computer could emulate an N64 with mario 64, 400mhz is not exponentially higher than 98mhz proceesor.

What? Your PC could run an N64 emulator but not SNES? That sounds more like user error to me

I was running SNES games at full speed on a 166mhz processor in the late 1990's.

Maybe the N64 emulator uses 3D acceleration.

 

[ProtoKnux]

It's not just potential, it's development of such emulator what would give us some clue.

You can have a great console in terms of processor but as long as no one tries to fit PS1 in and optimizes it to run at full speed, the processor is not going to do it by itself.

 

[Evo.lve]

First off.

The only thing we know about the processing power of the 3DS is that it's an ARM CPU. Feasible rumours indicate that it's a dualcore ARM11 clocked at 266MHz, but then again, this doesn't mean that it's true.

Second.

The only reason a PSP could emulate a PS1 is because it has the same architecture. That's 90% of your problem gone.

Third.

It's probably not possible. There is almost no way in hell that a 266 MHz dual core ARM11 (if that is indeed the processor in there) can emulate a 30.8688MHz MIPS processor.