Hardware eMMC Memory IC is "easily" replacable

[bennyman123abc]

DeadlyFoez, it appears the part numbers for what is called "NAND" in the 3DS actually correspond to products marketed by Samsung and Toshiba as being "eMMC"-enabled flash memory parts. Thus, most 3DS references to NAND are, in fact, references to an eMMC storage device.

Of course, bennyman123abc did NOT properly described the OTP or how the NAND is locked to a given 3DS console. But, if he was coming from the 3DS side of things, his comments on the eMMC chip are reasonable.

DeadlyFoez, could you help us understand what you understand the term "NAND", at least as used when referring to "Nintendo consoles in the past"?

Yes. I mostly come from the 3DS side of the hacking scene as I would expect most people on this forum unless they are returning from the Wii hacking or an older scene.

 

[wg93589]

Don't forget Wii U's boot0 has the ability to boot a signed recovery image from SD card in case the console is bricked by homebrew or an interrupted update.

and how does that work?

 

[bennyman123abc]

Don't forget Wii U's boot0 has the ability to boot a signed recovery image from SD card in case the console is bricked by homebrew or an interrupted update.

What the hell? Why is this not being used in some way, shape, or form?

 

[DeadlyFoez]

The 3ds in fact has eMMC flash memory. Anyone whom calls it a NAND chip is an idiot and should not trying to talk or sound technical. The Wii had a NAND chip. The wii u has both eMMC and NAND chips. The switch only has eMMC.

I already listed some differences between the 2 in another thread.

Its like calling a bicycle a car. Yes they both can get you from point A to point B, but thats where the similarities end.

 

[bennyman123abc]

The 3ds in fact has eMMC flash memory. Anyone whom calls it a NAND chip is an idiot and should not trying to talk or sound technical. The Wii had a NAND chip. The wii u has both eMMC and NAND chips. The switch only has eMMC.

I already listed some differences between the 2 in another thread.

Its like calling a bicycle a car. Yes they both can get you from point A to point B, but thats where the similarities end.

Ok but if you knew anything about the 3DS's technical side, you'd know that even Nintendo refers to the eMMC chip as NAND. It's referred to that in official development applications on the 3DS and in the SDK Development Manual.

 

[Ra1d]

What the hell? Why is this not being used in some way, shape, or form?

We're waiting for you, you seem to be the expert around here.

 

[Selver]

The 3ds in fact has eMMC flash memory. Anyone whom calls it a NAND chip is an idiot and should not trying to talk or sound technical. The Wii had a NAND chip. The wii u has both eMMC and NAND chips. The switch only has eMMC.

I already listed some differences between the 2 in another thread.

Its like calling a bicycle a car. Yes they both can get you from point A to point B, but thats where the similarities end.

Ok but if you knew anything about the 3DS's technical side, you'd know that even Nintendo refers to the eMMC chip as NAND. It's referred to that in official development applications on the 3DS and in the SDK Development Manual.

DeadlyFoez, thanks for clarifying that you understood the 3DS to have an eMMC chip. While the protocol is eMMC, the underlying flash memory is based on NAND (not NOR). Thus, it can be reasonably referred to by both eMMC and NAND. I didn't verify, but I'm pretty sure the same holds true for the chip in the Switch (eMMC protocol with NAND-based storage).

What I'm interested in, is a trace of the commands sent to the eMMC chip on the Switch during boot. What mode is it in? Do they bother locking any portion from writes using commands during boot? etc.

 

[aldeazem]

The 3ds in fact has eMMC flash memory. Anyone whom calls it a NAND chip is an idiot

eMMC, MLC, SLC etc. are all kinds of NAND flash memory. In fact, I'm pretty sure that both 3DS and WiiU used eMMC for internal storage. So, it's fine to use the terms eMMC or NAND interchangeably.

 

[McWhiters9511]

Yes. I mostly come from the 3DS side of the hacking scene as I would expect most people on this forum unless they are returning from the Wii hacking or an older scene.

genius

 

[DeadlyFoez]

DeadlyFoez, thanks for clarifying that you understood the 3DS to have an eMMC chip. While the protocol is eMMC, the underlying flash memory is based on NAND (not NOR). Thus, it can be reasonably referred to by both eMMC and NAND. I didn't verify, but I'm pretty sure the same holds true for the chip in the Switch (eMMC protocol with NAND-based storage).

That is not true. Although an eMMC chip does contain NAND gates, nearly every piece of silicon contains NAND gates vut you dont see anyone referring to a cpu as a NAND chip. Ever piece of silicon also contains NOR gates even NAND and eMMC chips but no one has ever referenced anything as a NOR chip.
It has to do with the underlying technology, not the type of gates used.

 

[bennyman123abc]

That is not true. Although an eMMC chip does contain NAND gates, nearly every piece of silicon contains NAND gates vut you dont see anyone referring to a cpu as a NAND chip. Ever piece of silicon also contains NOR gates even NAND and eMMC chips but no one has ever referenced anything as a NOR chip.
It has to do with the underlying technology, not the type of gates used.

Actually, a CPU uses every logic gate. Not just NAND or NOR.

 

[DeadlyFoez]

Actually, a CPU uses every logic gate. Not just NAND or NOR.

No shit sherlock. I wasnt about to go and list 8 different types of gates. I was making a quick point.

 

[bennyman123abc]

No shit sherlock. I wasnt about to go and list 8 different types of gates. I was making a quick point.

Well, why don't you if you're such a fucking genius?

 

[nccom]

eMMC, MLC, SLC etc. are all kinds of NAND flash memory.

Umm no. MLC, SLC, TLC are types of NAND memory cells, while eMMC is a type of memory card standard/interface.

The 3ds in fact has eMMC flash memory. Anyone whom calls it a NAND chip is an idiot and should not trying to talk or sound technical.

NAND = raw flash, eMMC = NAND + controller.

 

[DeadlyFoez]

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

Umm no. MLC, SLC, TLC are types of NAND memory cells, while eMMC is a type of memory card standard/interface.

NAND = raw flash, eMMC = NAND + controller.

Couldnt have said it better myself. Good job. Hopefully now everyone can shut up knowing that they have been straightened out.

 

[AutumnWolf]

RELAX, PEOPLE, I'm not a mod but I tell you, fighting over the internet is really stupid

 

[linuxares]

I would assume there is a couple of efuses that can cause issues doing "hardware" hacks like this.

 

[DeadlyFoez]

I would assume there is a couple of efuses that can cause issues doing "hardware" hacks like this.

That is my concern as well. N didn't do that with the Wii, and no one ever actually figured out positively if the Wii U had e-fuses, but you would figure that N had to incorporate them into this console if the eMMC is so easily removable. But, on the otherhand, N doesn't care to go as far as $ony and Micro$oft to combat piracy and e-fuses could possible make in house repairs a little more of a pain in the ass.

 

[linuxares]

That is my concern as well. N didn't do that with the Wii, and no one ever actually figured out positively if the Wii U had e-fuses, but you would figure that N had to incorporate them into this console if the eMMC is so easily removable. But, on the otherhand, N doesn't care to go as far as $ony and Micro$oft to combat piracy and e-fuses could possible make in house repairs a little more of a pain in the ass.

I think so as well. Especially now how their consoles gotten popped open quite fast, they probably want to kill piracy and Nvidia is on-board with hardware. One can only guess what's in those chips at the moment.

 

[laramie]

is this emmc chip sold anywhere else? Or is it a custom pcb with a emmc chip on it?