DSi incompatible with existing flash carts?

  • Thread starter Thread starter shaunj66
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One flashcart will work on DSi.
yaynds.gif


This one.
DSvision_adapter.jpg

It's perhaps time to look inside this stuff to see how it boot ...
 
ViRGE said:
Raven Darkheart said:
come on now
when the ds came out it took em at least a year to come up with a slot 1 solution that was stable
so we shouldnt panic yet
A lot of that time was spent just reverse engineering the handheld to understand how it worked. The Slot-2 solution was actually pretty crude, it didn't take very long because it wasn't based on any kind of advanced understanding of the hardware. Boot the DS with a real game, then throw it an instruction to a memory address that should not have worked if the DS firmware was written correctly in the first place (which is why Nintendo fixed it with later firmwares). The advantage now is that we have a good understand of the hardware and while the DSi changes some things, the specs of Slot-1 and the main CPU will not have changed. We know how to patch games on the fly to deal with the additional delays of NAND flash, and to intercept calls to read/write savegames. And if my understanding of modern flashcards is right, we even know Nintendo's original DS game signing key. It shouldn't take a year, the hardware has been developed, it'll be a matter of what mechanism is blocking current carts, and finding a vulnerability to bypass it. Nintendo has proven to be poor at correctly implementing security measures in the past.

It will be interesting to see if the speculation about a white-list are true. If Nintendo is smart they've added an additional game signing key (one we don't know) to new titles, and this is where the white-list would make sense. I can't imagine this holding up for very long though, it relies on the cart not lying. Since these are active devices, lying is very easy to do. We can't fake being a new game that the DS doesn't know about (due to new keys) but we could fake being an old one, albeit at the risk of starting an arms race with Nintendo in future firmware updates.

I would not be surprised if this new blocking mechanism made it in to the DS Lite eventually though. Clearly it's to Nintendo's advantage to break old flash carts in both the DSi and the older DS Lite.

On that note however, I sincerely doubt we'll see a SD hack on the DSi's SD card slot. What makes the DS unique is that it's meant to execute games coming from fast ROM memory, and while this isn't quite as literal as it was with the GBA (which had virtually no RAM because of the ROM), it still holds true. For SD flash carts, timing hacks had to be developed to trick the DS in to putting up with the fact that reads from NAND flash are not as fast as they are with the original ROM (If Openchip is still here, he could probably say a great deal more about this). This is part of the reason why every flash cart has a small processor on it, because it needs to constantly intercept things. Making the DSi read from its own SD slot means that we won't have that processor and we can't execute games simply by throwing the bootup routine a new address that points to the SD slot. The firmware itself would need to be modified to perform what the flash cart processor currently does, and I'm not sure that would work for any number of reasons. Not the least of which includes if we can even write custom firmwares, or if it's possible to shoehorn one of the ARM processors in to doing this without throwing off other timings or slowing down the DS. Getting current flash carts working on the DS will probably be far easier than going to the next level and executing games from the SD slot.

@Games from SD. Truethly it is realy doubfull (if not even impossible) to run whole games from SD, but homebrews shouldnt be a big problem ;P
 
leinad said:
@Games from SD. Truethly it is realy doubfull (if not even impossible) to run whole games from SD, but homebrews shouldnt be a big problem ;P

Only if the firmware can be hacked.
 
TrolleyDave said:
leinad said:
@Games from SD. Truethly it is realy doubfull (if not even impossible) to run whole games from SD, but homebrews shouldnt be a big problem ;P

Only if the firmware can be hacked.

Yeah of course there have to be a base to run other code =|
 
just as i feared this thread is 2% fact and 98% speculation. we all knew from the start that the new firmware would not allow the current generation of flash kits to work. no one should say anything else until the hardware is studied and hacks are attempted. we have no idea if you can boot anything off the sd slot because no one has tried yet, talking about it is just more speculation. i'm not saying don't post, because i know everyone wants to get their thoughts posted. but don't add wood to the speculation fire, lets wait and let the professionals handle it.

-another world
 
I'm pretty sure Nintendo said something about how flashcarts wouldn't work anymore or something to the effect of "stopping piracy".
It doesn't surprise me at all that they don't work, and I don't see why anyone might have expected it to work either.
 
Well, hopefully someone can create a patch or new firmware by the time it comes out in the americas. Because i really want the DSI so i can animate (The photo allows you to kind of rotoscope pictures) and well, in order to get the DSI i have to turn in my DS lite at the store i bought it from (They allow that, just pay the left overs)
 
like i said before,no need to worry guys, our hackers around the world have a lot of brain too and i am certain that they will find away through this.
yaynds.gif


And always remember the SD card slot they have givin us ,we can do wonders with that!
 
just a bit of speculation here but even though it cant boot flashcarts (no surprise really) the code needed to defeat this will be in the new games sooooooo it only takes someone to hunt through the code from one of the said new games to find exactly wot piece of code is doing this

as for the comments about nintendo failing by not allowing flashcarts to work thats just fookin hilarious
it will sell no matter if it can run flashcarts or not,the avarage game buyer isnt as clued up as most people on places like this (original ds games do actually sell hundreds of thousands of units)
 
xcdjy said:
djgarf said:
just a bit of speculation here but even though it cant boot flashcarts (no surprise really) the code needed to defeat this will be in the new games sooooooo it only takes someone to hunt through the code from one of the said new games to find exactly wot piece of code is doing this

You stated the obvious there. Everyone knows some dude'll work out how to DSimprove flashcarts eventually.

it may be obvious to people who actually think about the situation but to all the moaners who are far too upset to think properly cus nintendo have blocked their precious hack tools it may not be.....
 
skawo96 said:
Nah I think thay will solve the issue in few days/weeks....It has SD card slot dammit! I'm sure they are cracking it right now...

My thoughts exactly. Maybe the traditional flashcarts are no longer needed and a hacked firmware will do the same thing. Look at the PSP.
 
djgarf said:
just a bit of speculation here but even though it cant boot flashcarts (no surprise really) the code needed to defeat this will be in the new games sooooooo it only takes someone to hunt through the code from one of the said new games to find exactly wot piece of code is doing this

chuckstudios said:
My theory as stated in IRC last night:
QUOTE(chuckstudios) there will be a whitelist built into the flash memory for all existing games
(chuckstudios) something like MD5, which could hold about 3000 games in under 50KB
(chuckstudios) all games from now on will be digitally signed in such a way that the DSi recognizes but the old DS models ignore
(chuckstudios) effectively killing piracy and homebrew

If they did it properly, then no.
 
Kokorazashi said:
skawo96 said:
Nah I think thay will solve the issue in few days/weeks....It has SD card slot dammit! I'm sure they are cracking it right now...

My thoughts exactly. Maybe the traditional flashcarts are no longer needed and a hacked firmware will do the same thing. Look at the PSP.
The thing about the PSP is that it reads games from a disc; there's really no difference between discs and NAND flash in that respect. In either case you need to load the vast majority of assets in to RAM and carefully stream the rest from a device with (relatively) poor access times. Making it work was largely a matter of reading from the MemoryStick slot. For the DS with high-speed ROM access, making a game work from NAND flash will be much more challenging.
 

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