Covid-19 vaccine

[Lacius]

On the subject of the vaccine, I wonder what @Lacius has to say about a phenomenon I learned about recently in passing. There’s an interesting disease that affects poultry called Marek’s disease, it affects a chicken’s lymphatic system, but the actual disease isn’t really of interest, but rather the prevention mechanism and its indirect effects. Areas affected by MDV generally vaccinate their poultry against the disease, however the vaccine is “leaky”, meaning it protects the host from harm, but does not prevent contracting or shedding the virus. This ultimately led to a somewhat vicious cycle of chickens having to continuously receive boosters against new mutated strains of MDV, and with each cycle the virus becomes more and more resistant, necessitating a new vaccine. This is oddly reminiscent to out current predicament, and it would be somewhat ironic if the booster model become a driving factor in COVID mutation, considering we already know that vaccinated patients can have viral loads of Delta that are equivalent to those in an unvaccinated patient (we just don’t really know if they’re “live”, so to speak).

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/science/tthis-chicken-vaccine-makes-virus-dangerous

Thoughts? I found the parallel quite interesting, but I’m no virologist myself.

It isn't completely analogous to our current situation, since it does look like our vaccines do indeed lower the odds of contracting the delta variant (but not the viral load in a vaccinated person who suffers a breakthrough infection), but I'm always worried about the evolution of resistance against any mitigation strategy we come up with against any pathogen.

Even if we had a vaccine that was 99% effective against COVID-19, and we vaccinated 99% of people with it, there's admittedly a huge selective pressure for vaccine resistance. Herd immunity would almost certainly eliminate the the virus in that area of high vaccination, but if there are other parts of the world where the virus isn't eliminated, then each repeated exposure of the virus to the vaccinated population only increases the odds of vaccine resistance developing.

To use an analogy, it makes me think of this video that visually demonstrates the development of antibacterial resistance. Even the area of high antibiotic resistance (i.e. the area of the world with a high vaccination rate) will eventually become exposed to antibiotic-resistant bacteria (i.e. a vaccine-resistant virus). It's only a matter of time. The goal is to limit the spread of infection as much as possible to drastically slow down mutation rates and the development of new variants. Coronaviruses are also stupid because they might pick up entire segments of genetic information from other coronaviruses.

Their only demonstration of safety is short term

We have a lot of data with regard to the longer-term effects of vaccines, including the long-term effects of mRNA vaccines. The technology is not new. Given what we know about mRNA vaccines, vaccines in general, in addition to the fact that the vaccine is completely gone from the body within days/weeks of getting vaccinated, the odds of long-term effects are exceedingly low.

There has been no demonstration of long-term effects, nor has there been any demonstration of any real mechanism for long-term effects. It's purely speculative.

They are fully approved by the FDA, not my local sanitary authority, ANVISA.
They are all experimental over here.

The experiments were done before they were broadly available to the public.

And Pfizer is the one I trust the least. I fear those mRNA/Adenovirus vaccines can be quite potential triggers to autoimmune diseases, among other issue.

There's no evidence of this. It's anti-vax nonsense based on feeling rather than fact, similar to the continued belief that vaccines broadly cause autism.

I just think it is not worth the risk at the moment.

Yes, I think CoViD-19 isn't as bad as whatever the long term effects of those vaccines might be.

COVID-19 has killed about 4.55 million people worldwide. It carries substantial risk of serious harm that can require hospitalization. It also carries significant risks of long-term effects that have actually been demonstrated.

 

[Ryab]

I have never been cautious of shots and stuff in the past. I ended up getting both doses of Pfizer and had zero reaction other than a sore arm which is basically expected with any kind of shot.

 

[AlexMCS]

It isn't completely analogous to our current situation, since it does look like our vaccines do indeed lower the odds of contracting the delta variant (but not the viral load in a vaccinated person who suffers a breakthrough infection), but I'm always worried about the evolution of resistance against any mitigation strategy we come up with against any pathogen.

Even if we had a vaccine that was 99% effective against COVID-19, and we vaccinated 99% of people with it, there's admittedly a huge selective pressure for vaccine resistance. Herd immunity would almost certainly eliminate the the virus in that area of high vaccination, but if there are other parts of the world where the virus isn't eliminated, then each repeated exposure of the virus to the vaccinated population only increases the odds of vaccine resistance developing.

To use an analogy, it makes me think of this video that visually demonstrates the development of antibacterial resistance. Even the area of high antibiotic resistance (i.e. the area of the world with a high vaccination rate) will eventually become exposed to antibiotic-resistant bacteria (i.e. a vaccine-resistant virus). It's only a matter of time. The goal is to limit the spread of infection as much as possible to drastically slow down mutation rates and the development of new variants. Coronaviruses are also stupid because they might pick up entire segments of genetic information from other coronaviruses.




We have a lot of data with regard to the longer-term effects of vaccines, including the long-term effects of mRNA vaccines. The technology is not new. Given what we know about mRNA vaccines, vaccines in general, in addition to the fact that the vaccine is completely gone from the body within days/weeks of getting vaccinated, the odds of long-term effects are exceedingly low.

There has been no demonstration of long-term effects, nor has there been any demonstration of any real mechanism for long-term effects. It's purely speculative.


The experiments were done before they were broadly available to the public.


There's no evidence of this. It's anti-vax nonsense based on feeling rather than fact, similar to the continued belief that vaccines broadly cause autism.


COVID-19 has killed about 4.55 million people worldwide. It carries substantial risk of serious harm that can require hospitalization. It also carries significant risks of long-term effects that have actually been demonstrated.

It's a matter of trust and pretty much no peer reviews, even on the effectiveness #s.
I don't trust the numbers, and I'm wary of the potential side effects. Yes, it's a "feeling rather than fact" issue, since there isn't enough "fact" yet for me to abandon my "feeling". And I say that as a scientist myself.

Honestly, I think a hard lockdown would be much more effective than any vaccines, but people can't help themselves.
CoViD-19 has a low mortality ratio after, even with the high death count. My mother got it twice, some sisters got it thrice or more. I got it bad, my O2% levels dropped to the low 80s for a while. Breathing was a constant pain, and the worst part, to me, was the gastrointestinal effects. Thankfully, no one in my family died, but quite a few got close, including me.

It's a terrible disease, no doubt, but not as bad as something like Nipah can be if left unchecked.

All that said, I'm scheduled for my shot in 2 days, and it seems I can pick which vaccine to take, so, I think my turn has come!

 

[NyaakoXD]

We have a lot of data with regard to the longer-term effects of vaccines, including the long-term effects of mRNA vaccines. The technology is not new. Given what we know about mRNA vaccines, vaccines in general, in addition to the fact that the vaccine is completely gone from the body within days/weeks of getting vaccinated, the odds of long-term effects are exceedingly low.

You know what does have long-term effects? Lung damage and the like after getting sick from COVID-19.

 

[Kunty]

I am a man of science and I decided to get the vaccine the moment it was available to my age group and I now have both doses. We don't know the long term side effects of the vaccine same as we don't know the long term side effects of covid itself, we can only go on data of previous coronaviruses. I think many people have the misconception that vaccines stop you from getting the particular disease they are vaccinating against but that isn't the case, you can still get it but it tends to be less severe. I have known young and healthy people who have contracted covid and ended up in hospital, some have regrettably died. The virus changes little bits about itself as it jumps from person to person and then we end up with newer more efficient strains, if we can make it more difficult for the virus to keep jumping and changing then we can rid ourselves of the risk of the virus. I understand people's apprehension as vaccines are normally tested for a much longer time but I believe the benefits outweigh the risks in this case. The planet is too overpopulated anyway so meh either way really. Fuck anti-vaxers in general though.

 

[elk1007]

There’s a lot of people who are anti-vac in this thread and have been open about being anti-vac outside of this thread. I am not tagging them because I am not going to give them that attention but just scrolling back a little will reveal them.
The normal for me, are there any peer-reviewed papers showing that the Covid vaccine is unsafe? Is there any peer-reviewed papers showing that vaccines in general are harmful enough to warrant avoiding them?

There are now 141 pages. Who is anti-vaccine?
Can you post one example?

Since the thread is about COVID, most people who are opposed to mandatory COVID vaccine are simply anti-mandate for unvetted vaccine. They still believe in the efficacy of older, time tested vaccines.
Before this COVID politicization, there were actual "anti-vaxxers" who rejected all vaccines.

To group those who reject this specific vaccine in with people who reject all vaccines is intellectually dishonest.

I understand people's apprehension as vaccines are normally tested for a much longer.....Fuck anti-vaxers in general though.

This is both equivocation and a categorical error.
Opposition against COVID vax mandate =/= being anti-vaccine.
Just like being anti-bath salts =/= anti-drug.

 

[The Catboy]

There are now 141 pages. Who is anti-vaccine?
Can you post one example?

Since the thread is about COVID, most people who are opposed to mandatory COVID vaccine are simply anti-mandate for unvetted vaccine. They still believe in the efficacy of older, time tested vaccines.
Before this COVID politicization, there were actual "anti-vaxxers" who rejected all vaccines.

To group those who reject this specific vaccine in with people who reject all vaccines is intellectually dishonest.

I just stated that I won’t give them that attention and I am sticking to that statement. There’s literally posts by some members who claim shit like “their doctor told them not to take it,” or “they’ve never been vaccinated and won’t change that.” I am not going to quote to tag them because I am not about to waste my time on them again.
As for the “against mandates” argument, most of those have been included with extremely stupid nonsense as well, including saying they won’t get vaccinated based entirely on garbage. I have been part of this thread for months now and I’ve only seen a large amount of misinformation and nonsense those against getting vaccinated or those against “mandatory vaccinations.” In all honestly, I am starting to believe that phrase is just a nonsense phrase to pretend to have some moral or logical high ground

 

[Kunty]

There are now 141 pages. Who is anti-vaccine?
Can you post one example?

Since the thread is about COVID, most people who are opposed to mandatory COVID vaccine are simply anti-mandate for unvetted vaccine. They still believe in the efficacy of older, time tested vaccines.
Before this COVID politicization, there were actual "anti-vaxxers" who rejected all vaccines.

To group those who reject this specific vaccine in with people who reject all vaccines is intellectually dishonest.



This is both equivocation and a categorical error.
Opposition against COVID vax mandate =/= being anti-vaccine.
Just like being anti-bath salts =/= anti-drug.

I was speaking about anti-vaxxers in general. Not people not wanting the covid vaccine.

 

[elk1007]

I was speaking about anti-vaxxers in general. Not people not wanting the covid vaccine.

Please be more explicit about this, since Lilith is trying to argue (poorly) that there is no difference.

In all honestly, I am starting to believe that phrase is just a nonsense phrase to pretend to have some moral or logical high ground

 

[Kunty]

Please be more explicit about this, since Lilith is trying to argue (poorly) that there is no difference.

I mean my intention was pretty obvious to be fair... I understand the apprehension but I don't agree with it. I think people should get the vaccine but I don't think any government should force anyone to have it. I feel it's more of a moral obligation to have it, but if you don't want it it's your choice. I just think it makes you (not you personally, people in general) a bit of a twat if you don't get it tbh.

 

[elk1007]

I mean my intention was pretty obvious to be fair... I understand the apprehension but I don't agree with it. I think people should get the vaccine but I don't think any government should force anyone to have it. I feel it's more of a moral obligation to have it, but if you don't want it it's your choice. I just think it makes you (not you personally, people in general) a bit of a twat if you don't get it tbh.

You're entitled to that opinion.
Live and let live.

 

[Deleted member 568468]

Just to update y'all I finally scheduled my jab for this Friday Can't wait to get 5G connection in my body so maybe my online games won't lag as usual.

 

[D34DL1N3R]

US Armed Forces are supposedly now being mandated to be vaccinated by Dec 15th. First off, why Dec 15th? Why a three month window for them to all possibly contract and spread? Secondly, is this going to be an actual vaccine mandate? Or another fake ass "mandate" like the 100+ workers one - which is actually more of a testing mandate. Not a vaccine mandate.

Edit: Becasue, it's extremely unlikely they are going to do weekly tests on every service menber that doesn't want the vaccine. I call another bullshit mandate where neither the vaccine OR tests are going to be actually widely mandated.

 

[djpannda]

Just to update y'all I finally scheduled my jab for this Friday Can't wait to get 5G connection in my body so maybe my online games won't lag as usual.

let me know if it worked.. I already had the vaccine for 5 months but my 5g is still spotty.

 

[linuxares]

let me know if it worked.. I already had the vaccine for 5 months but my 5g is still spotty.

Oh? My 5G went up. I can hear satellites now.

 

[NyaakoXD]

Oh? My 5G went up. I can hear satellites now.

Not only that, everything that I'm doing irl is also being tracked by the government and Bill Gates.

 

[The Catboy]

Please be more explicit about this, since Lilith is trying to argue (poorly) that there is no difference.

Considering my involvement in this thread for several months now, I take umbrage at this statement. If you haven't been involved in the conversations that I've been involved in, then your input isn't welcome. My comments were not directed at you, they've been directed at the same individuals that come to this thread with their ill-informed opinions on vaccines and lack of sources. If you aren't willing to find the specific conversations I am referring to, then that's on you but that doesn't mean I need to go out of my way to include you in those conversations. They are public, they are in this thread, you can find them and make yourself involved.

 

[elk1007]

Considering my involvement in this thread for several months now, I take umbrage at this statement. If you haven't been involved in the conversations that I've been involved in, then your input isn't welcome. My comments were not directed at you, they've been directed at the same individuals that come to this thread with their ill-informed opinions on vaccines and lack of sources. If you aren't willing to find the specific conversations I am referring to, then that's on you but that doesn't mean I need to go out of my way to include you in those conversations. They are public, they are in this thread, you can find them and make yourself involved.

There's an ignore button for a reason.
If you don't want public replies to your post, don't make a public post.

 

[The Catboy]

There's an ignore button for a reason.
If you don't want public replies to your post, don't make a public post.

I am not sure if I am misreading your posts of if you don’t understand how the ignore feature works. I am fine with having public posts, that’s how I ended up with over 20K posts. My issue was that my post was very specifically towards those against either this vaccine or vaccines in general. Asking for specific details in regards of who it’s directed at isn’t relevant to that post. There are specific members who have expressed anti-vac views throughout this thread but my post wasn’t just limited to those members. My post is open to anyone willing to provide creditable sources to back up either being against the Covid vaccine or against vaccines in general. Asking me for specific members or pages is just a waste of everyone’s time and not relevant to my post. The post you specifically replied to was also not relevant to my original question.

 

[elk1007]

I am not sure if I am misreading your posts of if you don’t understand how the ignore feature works. I am fine with having public posts, that’s how I ended up with over 20K posts. My issue was that my post was very specifically towards those against either this vaccine or vaccines in general. Asking for specific details in regards of who it’s directed at isn’t relevant to that post. There are specific members who have expressed anti-vac views throughout this thread but my post wasn’t just limited to those members. My post is open to anyone willing to provide creditable sources to back up either being against the Covid vaccine or against vaccines in general. Asking me for specific members or pages is just a waste of everyone’s time and not relevant to my post. The post you specifically replied to was also not relevant to my original question.

If you ignore my posts, you won't be triggered by them
You're also welcome to DM members so I can't reply

So many options, and they all fall upon you.