Gaming Anti Aliasing types on the 3DS

[Eerpow]

So we all know by now that the 3DS supports two types of AA, 2x horizontal AA and 4x AA, but only when played without the system's 3D feature.
Most noticeable among companies to use the 4x AA type is Capcom, games like Resident Evil: Revelations and Super Street Fighter IV 3D are great examples on how to make good use of the built in features of the system.
Games like Zelda OoT on the other hand uses the first kind of AA where pixels are smoothened horizontally, but still, no AA with 3D on.
Up until recently I thought that we would never see the day when we could play in jaggie less 3D on the 3DS, that is until I played Mario Kart 7.

At first I thought it looked so smooth because it was a fast paced racing game where you didn't "have time" to notice any imperfections in the images, I was wrong, I hit the brake and studied the image. It turned out that it uses the same kind of AA as Zelda.

Are there any more games that have AA with 3D enabled?

 

[Wizerzak]

Very true, Mario Kart does look very nice on 3DS. CRUSH 3D seems to have some sort of AA and it definitely retains it with 3D enabled, in fact some parts even look smoother.

 

[heartgold]

Zen pinball has 4xAA in 3D mode.

 

[Eerpow]

I don't know but does 2x AA in 3D = 4x AA in 2D? In terms of how much power it takes.
4x in 3D sounds great for an eShop title.
I did a quick google search and it was hard to find anything. Can't believe that there's hardly any mention about it, for me it was like night and day at least.

 

[heartgold]

I don't know but does 2x AA in 3D = 4x AA in 2D? In terms of how much power it takes.
4x in 3D sounds great for an eShop title.
I did a quick google search and it was hard to find anything. Can't believe that there's hardly any mention about it, for me it was like night and day at least.

That's what so amazing about it, it does 4xaa in 3D enable mode. So smooth.

 

[Eerpow]

I don't know but does 2x AA in 3D = 4x AA in 2D? In terms of how much power it takes.
4x in 3D sounds great for an eShop title.
I did a quick google search and it was hard to find anything. Can't believe that there's hardly any mention about it, for me it was like night and day at least.

That's what so amazing about it, it does 4xaa in 3D enable mode. So smooth.

Wow, that would be 4x AA on a 800x240 image rendering 3D models from two angles.
Pokedex 3D uses 2x AA in 3D too apparently.

 

[Deleted_171835]

AA is very taxing on the system which is why it isn't used often. It's pure witchcraft that Capcom got it working in Revelations, a game that already looks great without it.

 

[Zarxrax]

AA is very taxing on the system which is why it isn't used often. It's pure witchcraft that Capcom got it working in Revelations, a game that already looks great without it.

Or possibly its just not as taxing as we previously thought.

 

[ferofax]

maybe Capcom made a proprietary algorithm that makes it not very taxing. that could mean they really know their stuff.

 

[Eerpow]

maybe Capcom made a proprietary algorithm that makes it not very taxing. that could mean they really know their stuff.

Yes, another thing is that you can't use standard 2D AA algorithms for rendered images in 3D , maybe that's why many companies don't use it, it isn't a standard yet.

 

[Coto]

Capcom know pretty well how to work on lower hardware, also, the GPU on the 3DS could handle a lot if used properly. Leaving enough cycles to get the code and the hypervisor on the CPU running.

On a side note, this may be interesting but... (on 3.0.0.6U) if you turn on wireless right before loading a DS game, it'll serve as local TCP/IP in DS-Mode (localplay as we all know). But if you turn it off while in DS mode you cannot enable it again, unless you go back the 3DS System Menu, re-enable it, then go back to DS Mode.

Some users suspected the GBA Mode was achieved by "re-using" the simulated ARM7tdmi cpu in DS mode, but it turns out it is a 3DS Mode GBA Emu. Why? Because you can enable wireless and disable it as many times as you can while on a GBA Game. If it were to stick to DS Mode, wireless shouldn't be brought back once shut down, right?

Just a guess

 

[Karaflaga Tumeeg]

Also remember there are many different kinds of AA such as FXAA, MLAA and SSAA etc. They are probably using one of the ones like FXAA which don't take many resources but the tradeoff is the image can be blurred at the edges.

 

[DiscostewSM]

Some users suspected the GBA Mode was achieved by "re-using" the simulated ARM7tdmi cpu in DS mode, but it turns out it is a 3DS Mode GBA Emu. Why? Because you can enable wireless and disable it as many times as you can while on a GBA Game. If it were to stick to DS Mode, wireless shouldn't be brought back once shut down, right?

Just a guess

The reason why the wireless can be turned off and back on in GBA mode is because the wireless isn't linked to the GBA mode at all. There are no ties between them as the GBA had no wireless hardware built into it. All communication with the GBA was done via the link-port, which had since been disabled starting with the DS. With the DS mode, however, it requires that the wireless hardware be set to run in the mode that DS games require. The DS never had a physical switch for turning it on and off. It was always available, and can be turned on/off by the software. Basically, in GBA mode, the OS still has control over the wireless, while in DS mode, the OS gives up control because the mode needs it.

I'll say though that the GBA mode isn't "fully" running natively, as I believe one part of it is emulated, and that's the Z80 co-processor that the GBA used for audio. This emulated part, I believe, is running on the same CPU that the 3DS OS is running on (which is now plausible to think since SM3DL demonstrates the use of both CPUs) so as to not interfere with the other CPU natively running ARM7 code.

 

[Coto]

Some users suspected the GBA Mode was achieved by "re-using" the simulated ARM7tdmi cpu in DS mode, but it turns out it is a 3DS Mode GBA Emu. Why? Because you can enable wireless and disable it as many times as you can while on a GBA Game. If it were to stick to DS Mode, wireless shouldn't be brought back once shut down, right?

Just a guess

The reason why the wireless can be turned off and back on in GBA mode is because the wireless isn't linked to the GBA mode at all. There are no ties between them as the GBA had no wireless hardware built into it. All communication with the GBA was done via the link-port, which had since been disabled starting with the DS. With the DS mode, however, it requires that the wireless hardware be set to run in the mode that DS games require. The DS never had a physical switch for turning it on and off. It was always available, and can be turned on/off by the software.

I bet the GBA Mode works in 3DS Mode, much like GB,NES(except those have streetpass enabled in background because of the amount of system resources those consoles require..). Those "ties" you say aren't linked could be easily addressed by doing the same as wireless GBA link cable, a.k.a GameBoy Advance Wireless Adapter.
Even Nintendo if they wanted could use teh wireless chip to allow multiplayer, because it's a matter of how was it done. For them, since they use a emu, they can pickup the gba cable link calls, re-address them using the same layer doing the background processes, then redirect them into the wireless chip, but this would mean a big hassle and convert most raw hardcoded gba link data into TCP/IP buffers, or import some code from older DS games which had wireless multiplayer, also I've heard the GBA link communication require small but steady bits or the connection gets rejected depending on the game.

Basically, in GBA mode, the OS still has control over the wireless, while in DS mode, the OS gives up control because the mode needs it.

the "OS" you say, is 3DS mode running in background.. this is why you can turn on, or off the wireless (because the light indicates chip activity.. steady: available -- blinking:beign used), but I thought before GBA Mode re-used DS Mode, hence wireless wouldn't be able to be turned on. But they just wrote 3 or 4 emus for their console.

edit:

holy ### just noticed we went off topic. Sorry

 

[DiscostewSM]

Well, the GBA is considered a subset of the DS when you think about it (since the GBA hardware is more or less part of the DS hardware), but it doesn't require nearly as much resources as the DS requires, so they may have trimmed off everything the GBA mode didn't need from the DS mode, which imo, included the need for wireless interaction.

Sorry for going off-topic here.

 

[Coto]

i did a quick test. On DS Mode, I removed the SD and nothing happened, I even went to 3DS SM by pressiong home and no "why you do that?!" SD messages popped. On GBA Mode (ambassador games) if I took out the SD while in GBA, the system would complain (because the game data came from SD, right?), And i'm guessing who's complaining about that, the hypervisor..? And the hypervisor runs in 3DS mode...

This is weird, and... interesting, i'd really like to know why

Oh, and the AA 4x used in 2D wins for me over AA 2x in some games. Starfox64 just looks too nice on 2D mode (and having AA enabled)

 

[DiscostewSM]

i did a quick test. On DS Mode, I removed the SD and nothing happened, I even went to 3DS SM by pressiong home and no "why you do that?!" SD messages popped. On GBA Mode (ambassador games) if I took out the SD while in GBA, the system would complain (because the game data came from SD, right?), And i'm guessing who's complaining about that, the hypervisor..? And the hypervisor runs in 3DS mode...

This is weird, and... interesting, i'd really like to know why

Oh, and the AA 4x used in 2D wins for me over AA 2x in some games. Starfox64 just looks too nice on 2D mode (and having AA enabled)

I would hope it would complain during GBA playback, as it needs it inserted when reading/writing save data.

 

[M[u]ddy]

Also remember there are many different kinds of AA such as FXAA, MLAA and SSAA etc. They are probably using one of the ones like FXAA which don't take many resources but the tradeoff is the image can be blurred at the edges.

FXAA and MLAA aren't real AA, but post processing filter that should imitate an anti aliased image.
If the rumors are true, the 3DS uses FSAA (Full Scale Anti Aliasing) which renders the image at a higher resolution and then samples it down. This is the most resource intensive AA, but it also gives the best results and additional anisotropic filtering as a byproduct.

 

[ferofax]

Also remember there are many different kinds of AA such as FXAA, MLAA and SSAA etc. They are probably using one of the ones like FXAA which don't take many resources but the tradeoff is the image can be blurred at the edges.

FXAA and MLAA aren't real AA, but post processing filter that should imitate an anti aliased image.
If the rumors are true, the 3DS uses FSAA (Full Scale Anti Aliasing) which renders the image at a higher resolution and then samples it down. This is the most resource intensive AA, but it also gives the best results and additional anisotropic filtering as a byproduct.

So that's why it's very heavy, it actually renders at a higher res? then i suppose the ones that RE:R and MK7 use are workarounds... maybe they can just work an algorithm for AA to apply it only to edges, or preferably, on jaggies.

 

[Foxi4]

So that's why it's very heavy, it actually renders at a higher res? then i suppose the ones that RE:R and MK7 use are workarounds... maybe they can just work an algorithm for AA to apply it only to edges, or preferably, on jaggies.

That's the thing - as of today, "jaggies" are necessary for the 3D effect - thanks to them it is easy to assert what is in the foreground and what's the background.

If you were to AA them, they'd blend too much.

What needs to be done, more or less is:

1. Rendering the background, applying the 3D effect, AA the scene.
2. Rendering the models that are far away, applying the 3D effect, AA the background (second layer).
3. Rendering the models that are close, applying the 3D effect, AA the foregound (third layer).

...all in Real-Time, of course.

Effectively you need three times the resources to achieve the same effect while keeping the 3D intact. By proxy a developer will focus on the meritum of the game and if there are any resources left, they *may* fool around with that kind of thing, but usually it's too late in the development to implement such engine changes.