1. Taleweaver

    Taleweaver Storywriter
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    Just heard Trump threatens to mobilise the army against US citizens. Well...at least he does it after breaking every sort of treaty he had with foreign instances. That way we don't have to feel guilty when idly standing by when you start a second civil war...:glare:
     
  2. notimp

    notimp Well-Known Member
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    There is an oxymoron in there somewhere. ;) (We go in a forum, so we dont have to read.)

    Also insert three paragraphs about how the concept of 'the third place' (a home away from home, where you can tune out), was actually (re-)invented as a way to let people 'experience an hour of fun' after a working day (job), where none of them does anything anymore, that has meaning to them. (Breaking down tasks into processes to make them faster (industrialization), and capitalism (you do stuff, because it pays).. ;)).

    Also, do you hate the topic, the futility of protests, or the way people usually pick sides, and 'have to have their opinion win'?

    I'm curious. ;)

    As long as the discussion isnt just purely ideological... whats the detriment?

    If it is just 'I really don't want to think about those things', I might poke you. ;)

    If it is anything else - fair. And, sorry for you having to cope with something political. :)
     
    Last edited by notimp, Jun 2, 2020
  3. Waygeek

    OP Waygeek GBAtemp Fan
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    What a load of handwaving dismissive crock of shit. Anywhere in England looking like the US right now bruh? Italy? Greece? Canada? New Zealand? Yeah no. Just say 'I'm a racist' and move on, anime avatar.
     
  4. CallmeBerto

    CallmeBerto The Lone Wanderer
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    This is why we need cat-girls
     
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  5. notimp

    notimp Well-Known Member
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    Right wing activists (American Identity Movement ) ran a false flag 'Antifa_US' account on twitter, that urged protesters to loot and steal:
    https://www.factcheck.org/2020/06/viral-tweet-alert-wasnt-from-antifa/

    (Any kind of escalation at this point (it already spread) is counter productive to the protests growing, or staying strong in numbers. Even the ultra right acknowledges that. ;) See, they arent all stupid. ;) (Now its a struggle over 'legitimacy'.) )

    Their play was, to fake espouse 'a plan to bring violence to “residential areas… the white hoods”', which is exactly what the protest cant do, if it hopes to draw more people. Same thing I criticised with the 'rioter tries to burn down house' video above.

    (Thats not a rioter, thats premeditated, and what he does is counterproductive (protest wants masses to join them, not to live in fear of them) at this point. Stuff burning makes for pictures that go viral, and invoking peoples base instincts, but once you have critical mass, it becomes a staying game, and you dont want any extreme actions anymore. Basically.)

    Looting is both, an irrational outburst of 'power of the masses' (anonymity, no state of law ('we have the power' (- so why not get me a new TV))), but at the same time something that is used to discredit the legitimacy of the protests.

    (While in essence all its saying is, that mass behavior doesnt follow higher level social rules. Say whaaaaaat? ;) I'm always astonished how many people seem to publicly realize that exactly the moment mass action takes place. ;) (And not while sitting in a football stadium, the weekend before, f.e.) )
     
    Last edited by notimp, Jun 3, 2020
  6. Viri

    Viri GBAtemp Addict
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  7. campbell0505

    campbell0505 GBAtemp Regular
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    Watching this happen from someone outside of the US, is very weird. I find it weird how pretty much every cop has a gun, I'm not anti-gun, it's just I've grown up in a country with very strict gun rules, and have only ever seen guns in museums. Even most cops here don't have guns. There's definitely responsible police men, I don't believe in ACAB, and I think most cops are good, but bad cops ruin the rep for good cops.

    I hope the US sorts this out with actual advancement.

    I just find it stupid how this is going on during a pandemic, I get the reason for the protests, and I support BLM, but imagine the spike in a week or two, from a country that was already getting around 20,000 cases a day. My country is getting around less than 10 a day now and we still have pretty high restrictions.
     
    Last edited by campbell0505, Jun 3, 2020
  8. Viri

    Viri GBAtemp Addict
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    When your country has more guns than citizens, your cops pretty much HAVE to carry a gun.
     
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  9. notimp

    notimp Well-Known Member
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    Oh yeah, the catharsis, that leaves another person in a trauma. Always the best kind of catharsis. The kind of catharsis, that needs you experiencing an irrational powertrip first - and then, aaaaaaaahhhhh, catharsis.. ;) Oh it is so much better, if you can experience that as a gun owner, and not as a looter, because?

    Also I find it endlessly funny, that 'some store owners are using the guns they own' is pent up to be a sort of 'heureka' moment by you.

    Isn't that expected in a country like the US with gun ownership levels that high?


    Also, and more to the point, those owners may protect their goods and ultimately their livelyhoods, but they are doing that, by threatening to end lives, while none of the looters or protesters is. (People still havent died at the hands of protesters, while quite a few have been offed by 'counterforces' (police, ...) as of now. So there is still a misbalance.

    What you'd do in a developed country, is to do more crowd control where looting is going on, and then helping those people that were looted and not insured, to get up and running again, through community grants or donations (different businesses pooling money).

    Of course only, if you didnt want to peg the public opinion against the protests and are doing jack sh*t to limit looting right now, so public sentiment turns.

    In the US police doesnt even seem to have the right equipment for the job (What exactly are those puny arm shields for? Riot shields look different.), seems to be afraid to move against crowds coordinately without batons in hand, and leaves store owners at their own peril.

    No? ;)

    You see none of the bigger brands starting to hire private contractors to pull weapons in front of their stores for a reason. They all cut losses, and move on. For them its more economical to do that. (Public image.)

    Why is it always the little guy acting out of an irrational fear, that has to be spokesmodel for 'whats ideal' in the NRAs interests? Never the big corporations, who should actually know. Some day I'll find out.. ;)
     
    Last edited by notimp, Jun 3, 2020
  10. UltraDolphinRevolution

    UltraDolphinRevolution GBAtemp Advanced Fan
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    Robbery often results in violence. If anyone comes into my house uninvited and with the goal to steal something, any violence is acceptable (except torture). It is the first step to civilization. If there is no sufficient deterrence for robbery, there is no incentive to do business. This is one of the reasons for the bad economic situation of black neighborhoods in the US. Stores move out, poverty increases. Instead of tackling the problem honestly, the racism card is played. Honestly, the words Nazi and racist will lose any meaning one day.

    BTW in some countries (e.g. Germany) you are not allowed to harm a robber, which is ridiculous.
     
  11. notimp

    notimp Well-Known Member
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    Agreed on the individual level ('fear for life" or livelyhood). Not agreed on the policy level (this is what we should use as a blueprint).

    I can fully understand, why some shop owners are grabbing their guns at the moment. I don't think its the best thing to do. But I understand it.
     
  12. Taleweaver

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    ...I cannot disagree more.

    It seems like you mix up cause and consequence. It's because you (by which I mean the neighborhood or even country) deem violence acceptable that robberies will become more violent. Likewise, if robbers expect to be harmed by people they burgle, they come prepared. We can ethically disagree on countries where we're not allowed to harm robbers, but A) we don't have more robbers than where it's allowed (explain that with your filosophy :rolleyes: ) and B) the robberies that do take place seldomly end up with violence.

    It gets weirder when you claim the acceptance of violence being a "first step to civilization". When it comes to a civilization, it's best to consider them as an enlargement of your average family. Children might "steal" each other's toys, but any sort of violence isn't the way to show why this is the wrong approach for everyone (rather the opposite). Likewise, companies don't trade because they are afraid it'll get stolen but because they recognize the win-win situations opportunities represent.

    This is one of the reasons for the bad economic situation of black neighborhoods in the US.

    Again: consequence, not cause. The problem with ethics is that they don't do shit when you've got an empty stomach. Muggings and robbery don't happen because those guys feel like doing it but because they lack alternative options. The incentive to do business is overshadowed by the neighborhood who have but learned but to take care of themselves. they see growing inequality and perceive (correctly) that they're being left to rot rather than be part of the civilization. Why bother to build a decent neighborhood when any attempt is perceived as being doomed from the start?

    Instead of tackling the problem honestly, the racism card is played

    Erm...this is something I better leave to US citizens, as they're in a better position to judge than me. But you really can't blame people from playing "the racism card" when the president calls his strategy a success AND a large part of those 100'000 deaths are poor, black Americans.

    Honestly, the words Nazi and racist will lose any meaning one day.

    If you can't see the reason why the protesters are pissed off then that's a problem in itself. Granted, I think today's untermensch'es are the poor, regardless of their skin color. But with a large part of them being black, it's pretty much a semantic difference.
     
  13. UltraDolphinRevolution

    UltraDolphinRevolution GBAtemp Advanced Fan
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    Well yeah, sure. If we were to put away all our kitchen knives (and cut our balls while we are at it) we would experience less violence. If a rapists rapes your family member, you can also avoid any trouble by just letting it happen.
    Please imagine you are a robber: would you rob a place which can defend itself rather than one that can´t? that´s why force is neccessary. it is a deterrence.

    Yeah, and if there is no win-win situation due to high risks, there will be no investment.

    The looters seem to be well-fed, especially the women. Being on food stamps in America far outcompetes being a rural person in China (of which there are still hundreds of millions). Yet, we don´t see looting as a mass sports in China. The culture is different and there is nobody willing to be blamed.

    The eternal victim, is it? In black neighborhoods people who try to study hard are called names and made fun of. Chinese Americans are hit by they parents if they have this attitude. The Chinese have had a very difficult history in America as well (the first to got banned; went there anyway and got abused building rail roads, for example). Yet the different cultures (value of education) have created vastly different results. Another example are Vietnamese people in Germany. They had worse starting conditions than e.g. most Turks but even outcompeted the Germans on average.

    Protesters can be pissed off. But destruction and looting cannot be excused.
    It is ironic that my view would be considered racist even though you are the one speaking of Untermenschen. Your approach is that of a caring mother who lets her child do anything, even when he destroys her home. It might be ok until a certain age. But there needs to be discipline at one point. I assume you see yourself as an "ally" (I love the word, reminds me of videogames). I suggest you watch the video about what happens to allies who give thumbs up to looters: they get their windows smashed in.
     
    Last edited by UltraDolphinRevolution, Jun 3, 2020
  14. Bladexdsl

    Bladexdsl ZOMG my posts...it's over 9000!!!
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    yeah the answer is to loot and cause as much violence as possible that always fixes things doesn't it? your just making yourselves look like asses in front of the whole world. and if trump does bring in the military it's never going to be the same ever again afterwards there is no doubt going to be new laws, restrictions and curfews. we have black people here too protesting but at least they are peaceful they are standing out in the freezing cold all night but at least they aren't going around wrecking shit they are a lot smarter than you are they know violence and destruction will only make things worse. but that's ok as long as you can go around stealing shit it doesn't matter right?!
     
  15. UltraDolphinRevolution

    UltraDolphinRevolution GBAtemp Advanced Fan
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    If you are Australian: Do you mean Africans or Aborigines? Calling them both black might be true in terms of skin color, but they are seperate people (would be like calling light-skinned Koreans "white").
     
  16. campbell0505

    campbell0505 GBAtemp Regular
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    Fair point, and I think it'd be too late for them to change gun rules, especially when they have more guns than people. Only reason that it worked in my country is a mass shooting had occurred at the time (1996) which lead to rules changing, and most people were in support of the buyback. We haven't had a mass shooting in 24 years now I believe. Only way people get gun licenses here now are if they are going hunting in wild areas, or similar stuff, and you're very restriced on what guns you can get, and to even get a license is a huge process from what I've heard. With a nation that's as gun loving as America, I don't believe it'd ever work.
     
  17. smf

    smf GBAtemp Psycho!
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    The job of the police is always to protect and to serve.

    That is why the police need to keep the high ground, they are the ones wholly responsible for this mess & they ought to be doing a much better job at calming it down.

    Witness the racism of political correctness. I recently upset someone of asian decent who wishes to be called brown, for asking why they when they refer to lighter skin africans as black & why are they not black? They tried to explain that I would be offended if someone said I wasn't white, I disagreed and said I'm really more of a light pink colour. They think I'm racist, but they _really_ don't want to be mistaken for african.
     
    Last edited by smf, Jun 3, 2020
  18. leon315

    leon315 POWERLIFTER
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    I'm curious, what game did Ninty deny the licence?
     
  19. notimp

    notimp Well-Known Member
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    By applying counter pressure in this instance.

    The masses in the streets are not 'in charge', or 'the entire electorate'. So police is serving the government, which would be protecting store owners and other citizens in that instance. (People inside buildings, that are afraid to come out on the streets - f.e.)

    But its hard to always talk in that vernacular, so lets just say, they do some stuff as well to administer counter pressure ('you cant argue with a mob' still holds true, so even morally, its ok.. ;) ), and they even do some shadier stuff (state wont sue them.. ;) ), so they'd get clearance to use some harder measures (at least in the public eye), if protests carry on longer.. (to the point where it becomes an image problem for governments (do you want reelections?)).

    Short answer here is, you cant. Their only tool for that is to 'show presence in numbers'. Mob reacts to 'uh' bigger stronger mob, maybe we dont engage but not to very much else.

    Another tool, maybe would be to use police horses (no joke, they are used as crowd control at stadium events in the UK f.e. because people, strangely act calmer in masses not to scare them, or because they are big animals (actually not sure why, but they work, and are used for that purpose.. ;) ), but I think the situation has developed past that. ;)
    see f.e.: https://old.reddit.com/r/explainlik...w/eli5_why_are_horses_used_for_crowd_control/

    Next strongest tool are transparent 'tower shields' or human chains (police fencing in a group of protesters, then pushing them back), then we quickly approach tear gas use already, I'm afraid.. ;)
     
    Last edited by notimp, Jun 3, 2020
  20. smf

    smf GBAtemp Psycho!
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    No. Hell no. That is the reason the backward yokel police keep getting itself in this mess.

    The police certainly aren't there to serve the government.

    The police are supposed to uphold the law, but that is less important than protecting lives.

    If there is a clear and immediate threat to life (and not just some made up bullshit like the police who committed murder in the first place), then they do need to act carefully to do it. Unfortunately it seems that America likes to recruit idiots into the police force & the fetish of acting like cowboys is going to keep violence going.

    The current situation is a good advert for getting rid of all guns in America.
     
    Last edited by smf, Jun 3, 2020
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