1. phalk

    phalk Handheld Maniac
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    Now gbatemp is a political forum.
    Cool.
     
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  2. sergey3000

    sergey3000 GBAtemp Fan
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    This is not the first time I see threads like this on this website. Are you coming here to relax, talk about video games and forget about the real world troubles or you want to upset everyone and talk about same thing we hear thousands of times a day all over the news! Why talk everywhere about things related to politics? You want to hear people opinions? Go and read YouTube comments.
     
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  3. notimp

    notimp Well-Known Member
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    If you get past containment, then the interesting strategies start. ;) (Agent provocateurs, ...)

    edit: I have a video for that as well. ::)

     
    Last edited by notimp, May 31, 2020
  4. GBAer

    GBAer GBAtemp Regular
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  5. chrisrlink

    chrisrlink Intel Pentium III Hamster inside
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    as such the insensitive person i am I'm quite enjoying the chaos and disorder as a teachable "I told you so" moment

    — Posts automatically merged - Please don't double post! —

    notice the racism in the comment section of the article/video (most are white SN's from the comment) shows how much hate trump infused in to the country
     
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  6. notimp

    notimp Well-Known Member
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    There is a lie in that article, actually multiple. So be aware, that this is not a good source.

    First and most prominent lie: "while trying to burn down a building". No, the aim of radical action in that vain is to destroy property in public (that usually is insured, or society will help replace)), if at all, so parked cars, windows, storefronts (...) not to burn down property like houses, where loss of life could ensue (how does the fire department get in, when there are mass protests?). Because of obvious reasons. If people die, because someone burned down their house - the protest isnt popular anymore. (Even protest where buildings got burned down in the past (verging on regime change level of dissent), used that very sporadically afaik, and mostly for signaling (f.e. burning down an important government building, when no one was in), not as 'usual rioter action'. Remember, the aim is to get people out of their houses to join you, not to have them shake in fear of being burned inside.)

    Second lie is, that this is 'usual rioting'. Bringing Molotovs isnt mass crowd behavior, its premeditated. So those groups usually are organized. For one reason or another.

    So that site does poor reporting. But brings you emotional clickbait, that works very well on social media, which is indeed why we cant rely on social media alone to 'judge' a situation. ;)

    Also, where was that photo taken? Narnia? (Journalism needs to report on basic criteria (Who, when, where, ...) like this, PR doesnt.) The photos dont allow to identify when and where this was taken, so in that instance, you need to proof your chain of aquisition, or at least tell, why you believe they where taken in North Carolina as stated in the title.


    edit: Saw the video after writing this. If the video turns out to be genuine (and the crowd reaction seems to be) that guy was an idiot. Because of the reasons stated above. No one is in favor of burning down random houses during a riot. Not even people that would be organizing a riot. Also crowds just looking at that and cheering? Welcome to mass crowd behavior. (Rationality who?)
     
    Last edited by notimp, Jun 1, 2020
  7. Hanafuda

    Hanafuda GBAtemp Addict
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  8. FAST6191

    FAST6191 Techromancer
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    RE: not the place, now a political site, why here

    The users create the discussions
    We have had political discussions as long as I have been around here, and from what I can tell before that
    You mean in the news, current events and politics section of the forum?


    Anyway are the riots actually about something real? Some seemed to want to note someone had their neck stood upon by a policeman and died, footage of the event showing no cause for that level of force and some other attending officers not doing anything either.
    Any martial arts, restraint, police, medical training... would say is rather risky and very much has killing a possibility so in turn would count as justification for lethal force if being used against someone else. As far as I am aware the officer in question was relieved of duty and subsequently charged (those also present not yet charged with anything last I looked but I am not sure what is warranted there). It sucks and you try to prevent it but if there are some two thirds of a million officers in the US ( https://www.statista.com/statistics/191694/number-of-law-enforcement-officers-in-the-us/ ) with even more daily interactions you are going to get a screw up or three somewhere along the line. It is even a noted example in http://cryptome.org/2012/07/gent-forum-spies.htm which I also suggest reading here.
    There the is the perception this sort of thing happens all the time, and worse racism is the cause of it. I don't see it myself (and I do like to follow the likes of https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2019/national/police-shootings-2019/ and other databases like https://killedbypolice.net/ and people in turn following them. That is 1004 people listed as killed in 2019 by those sites, which if anything have a vested interest in pushing that number up rather than downplaying it) but if someone cares to enlighten me please do. Now killing is one thing, there are occasionally survivors too, and there other interactions so maybe we could discuss that.

    Still perception can be a thing (advertisers and PR peeps do say it is reality) so maybe we get some demonstrations.
    Said demonstrations appear to have failed to be controlled, and might even be a bit contagious. There may or may not be further elements (outside as well as generally disaffected youth) involved in it, have been some in the past in other ones and it is an effective cover to do things.
    So yeah riots about not a lot, not likely to be terribly effective at anything and messing up your own room rarely accomplishes much other than getting you a bunch of broken stuff of your own. Indeed the police station, which was left under duress in a shot I saw, should it have been trashed is probably only likely to get someone to drop a bit of coin to give them nice new stuff that would have been years out on the budget.

    As far as I am aware no figure of note in this upon seeing what is fairly clear and unedited footage of the event has attempted to justify it or downplay it.

    So yeah something bad happened, investigation was conducted quickly and punishment was sought in short order, and appears to be ongoing. Sucks that it happened but that appears to be the system at work reacting to a bad action. No need to break stuff.
     
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  9. notimp

    notimp Well-Known Member
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    Oh wow the protest leaders demands in Minneapolis are ... 'special'.



    We want more private policing structures (community lead safety structures), instead of police! Yeah, good luck with that...

    (Thats like demanding "We want the state to permanently acknowledge that it has no legitimacy, and create private policing structures, that would be equivalent to official ones, thereby breaking the states monopoly on enforcement through violence. Maybe we could have street battles between the differing policing forces in the future? What morons.

    Next we want our own state, and for santa to bring everyone warm milk and cookies.)

    edit: Full video:
    https://www.democracynow.org/2020/5/29/minneapolis

    Now watched the entire video, and frankly - I'm angry at the organizers.

    America seems to have a widespread education problem, when it tends to put utter morons with no qualifications other than feels at the top of protest movements.

    In that video above you have a female organizer demanding the abolition of state power in favor of 'direct community policing' - which is outrageously stupid, and a member of a state body stating into camera, that he hates watching snuff videos especially the kind, where the victims cant die with dignity. But the other snuff videos not so much? When not acting in a political capacity with his dad being the state attorney, he's an artist. Bravo dear SJW movement for putting people without qualifications at the top, but which excel at 'feelings'.

    Cant watch those statements. Too stupid.

    Also I strongly disagree with @FAST6191 that those cases are 'low in numbers' and should be ignored. (There is still stuff that can be done to prevent further ones of those.) But at least in Minnesota the question becomes, what the heck are you doing? You already have a democratic government in place, that gets attacked by Trump for them being extremist left wing pussies, when publically demanding the arrest of those police officers. You have a police chief thats already on a mission to change the internal culture of the police department there. So now demands of the activist groups move in the direction of 'defund the police' - while organizing a riot, and at least setting a police station on fire (still different from 'setting homes on fire' (endangering other people)). I mean this is so stupid its hard to put it in words.

    Because of the level of stupidity alone here, its easy to predict outcomes. Protests here will have no effects. Potential demands are so way off the charts that no sane person could even entertain them - so all of this is freaking venting and acting out again. Opportunity missed.

    Next time demand better police screenings, or more psychological evaluations of officers, or reeducation programs for other officers not to stand by and stare holes into the air, demand internal restructuring programs, literally demand anything that makes sense, and could be an actual demand.

    "Defund the police and fund 'community policing'" - what a freaking joke..

    edit:

    Ok, better demands from another activist group.
    Cultural shift in the police department, body cameras, special prosecutor for those cases.


    Thats something to work with.
     
    Last edited by notimp, Jun 1, 2020
  10. gempugs

    gempugs Advanced Member
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    Looks like OP isnt way geek at all.

    Nah, reddit or your usual social media is enough for these kind of discussions. Don't bring 'em to our peaceful independent video gaming community will ya?
     
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  11. Taleweaver

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    @notimp: whoa! You're usually better at argumenting than on your last post. But here you just put some links down, explain the gist of it, and then add "...and I strongly disagree!".

    Look...as a non-USA citizen, the idea of a private militia is indeed pretty ridiculous to me. I'm in two minds regarding police. On one hand they're never there when you need them and only there to hand out petty fines for ridiculous things (I once was among many dozens to receive a fine for driving my bicycle on the wrong end of the road...on a road with bicycle lanes on both sides and a road that was not only notoriously badly designed but literally deadly to cyclists). On the other hand, I fully understand that their main task is to observe and maintain order and balance. Something that is especially important in this pandemic.

    The thing is: our police is, by lack of a better term, humane. Yes, they pry and maintain even the dumbest of laws, but they mostly just want everyone to just mind their business. Even if only going by police series (which obviously isn't the truth), there's a major difference between local (Flemish) series and American ones. Flemish ones are halfway detective stories, with them mostly talking to people. In the US, it's like there's a constant war going on that at least requires drawing guns. Which I presume is closer to daily life, because guns are allowed there (fuck...if Belgium would allow nearly all citizens to carry firearms, it wouldn't take long before the police becomes much edgier as well).

    Add to that the elephant in the room: racism. The easiest thing to distinguish a police series and a news report involving the police (aside the shaky cam) is the amount of black officers. In series, there's always at least one coloured cop playing sidekick (never the lead, obviously, as it would scare away racist viewers). In reports, it's almost all whites (save perhaps a sorry spokesperson).
    And I've got to be honest: if 95% of Belgium's police force was black and there were regular mentions of them killing white people, I'd rather have the state invest in "private policing structures" (meaning: neighborhood watches) than have some white guy tell the television that they acted in good faith and that the perpetrators would be properly punished (which would be a couple weeks of suspension).

    Is it a perfect solution? Of course not. Is it a better solution than the current situation? ABSOLUTELY.

    Of course it's not going to happen. The USA only remains united through it's strength over its citizens. Reducing police strength might in the long run indeed, as you say, lead to cities or even states breaking free from the USA. And Trump is a moron in many fields but not this one. He knows better than to allow protesters to threaten his dictatorship.




    @phalk, @gempugs, @sergey3000 : this section's separated from the gaming section. I get not everyone wants to talk about it, but it's really not hard to avoid it. Besides...contributing (even voicing that you don't want to talk about it) is only increasing the size of these threads. So...sorry we interrupt your daily browsing habits, but you've got plenty of reading material left. :)
     
  12. notimp

    notimp Well-Known Member
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    I have to explain my deliberation process then.

    The state will never allow for its monopoly on violence in policing to be split. As in never. That opens up the door to questions like 'which police force is better, the public, or the private one?' at which point you have 'local warlords' competing over who is responsible for what district.

    The loss of power and legitimacy for the state, if something like this would get instilled is so huge, there are forces in federal government that would rightly argue, that you invade that state - just to reinstate whats one of the basics of democracy - which is, we dont take policing into our own hands, as individuals, or communities.

    If any state does that it only can loose. Its like a forhead tatoo stating, I'm illegitimate, and cant do things right, signed your voted in state representative.

    Stuff like this never ever can happen, for good reasons. If your perspective is, that you will create your own self policing commune thats self reliant and self sufficient, please start your little experiment somewhere in the desert, and then hope that your children dont get abused by your 'communal power structures' without an established oversight process, like they always seem to do in such an instance (unfair to bring this into the argument, but 'communal value inforcement' strangely often paned out like this in the past).

    Get your freaking TV sitcom Idea of "we be our own sheriffs" out of your head, and learn about a centuries worth of constitutional law in practice, before sending freaking daddy is a state atornies artists son to a TV station sketching out their idillic utopia on a national broadcast.

    The NSA would snuff out your ploy in half a month, because it endangers the states stability as a whole - and for what? Just so you can stroke some of those emotional needs you have, while virtue signaling?

    This has to stop. You have to teach people - at a minimum - that them trying to put up 'alternative systems' instead of reforming the actual system, is not the solution, when it comes to policing.

    That stuff I'm actually getting angry about, because it give hardliners an actual argument, why 'leftist progressives' cant be allowed to have their opinions matter. And I'm saying that the argument is absolutely valid in this case.
    -


    Also - the very idea, that you could demand police defunding, while you are mounting a riot, and setting police stations ablaze - is a little counterintuitive, dont you think?

    (State buildings are set on fire, because of a sensationalism factor, that can add to protester numbers growing - again, if people dont feel under danger to be burned in their private homes. (Which would be a narrative, right wingers would be paddling right about now. Which coincidently is, why the person with the molotov coctail trying to burn down a structure on his own, with hundereds watching, was acting - entirely out of stupidity. Also, if the video is actually real, I doubt that this was an agent provocateur - because the guy on video was obviously very young.) Which leads me to 'the amounts of things that seemed to have failed at that specific protest at this point...'.)
     
    Last edited by notimp, Jun 1, 2020
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  13. Staff Posts: Why politics on gbatemp???!
    Costello

    Costello Headmaster
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    https://gbatemp.net/threads/disclaimer-read-this-before-posting.493895/
    first post, question 5
     
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  14. Taleweaver

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    Okay. Thanks for the explanation. However, it seems like we mostly agree (I also posted on why the states will never allow it).

    However, I still don't see why you call the idea stupid aside of its feasability. Unless I'm mistaken, the word(s) you're looking for is "(incredibly) naive".

    ...that seems like a pretty sad choice of words, really. If the founding fathers followed the "consitutional law" (or whatever the UK had in place was called back then), the states would still be England's colony right now.
     
  15. SG854

    SG854 If It Bleeds, We Can Kill It
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    The Cop choked the guy to death. I saw the full video. 9 min straight with his knee on his neck. The police report was bullshit. Then a day after, a video showed how much of a bullshit the report was.

    People always making this type of topic a political divide. But both conservatives and democrats agree the cop abused his power. Tune in to Fox and even they agree the cop is bad. Usually a divide happens when then say, "well he could've been armed or a threat." But the video clearly shows the cop did fucked up shit. Once the guy is handcuffed its over no need to go any further, especially for 9 min in a death choke when the guy is crying that he can't breath. There was no resisting, nothing. Cops are not judge, jury, or executioner. This is why everybody agrees on this one.

    There were multiple races of cops in on this. A White, Asian and Hispanic.

    The riots are worse because of corona virus lockdown. Lots of people at home with lots of free time on their hands. Many lost there jobs. A few are using this as an excuse to loot and get free stuff, which is beyond Floyd at this point. And burn down building that have nothing to do with fighting for racial justice. Lockdown has made these riots much worse. People were already on edge from stay at home orders and just needed a spark to go crazy. Floyd's death was that spark.
     
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  16. MetoMeto

    MetoMeto GBAtemp Advanced Fan
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    This is strange that i stumble here...i thought there is no politics on gbatemp... :wtf:
     
  17. notimp

    notimp Well-Known Member
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    The US has 'county police organizations', correct? So what I wrote above (only state or national level is an option) is not correct.

    Issue being, that Minneapolis is not just a little county. So I guess legally its not entirely out of the question, that you could replace a state police force with a community run one in the US? (That would then still work under the federal system.)

    Its just, that practically it still is. (The amount of damage that would do to the democratic system at hand if you'd have to admit, yes, we had to replace our entire executive arm in a large city, because it had unredeemable behavioral problems that were institutional, ... Its still never going to happen..)

    That said, I think I'll look into that social activists groups demands to see what exactly they are demanding, because now I'm interested..


    edit:
    Black Visions Collective is a squarespace site with - ehm - useless stuff on it:
    https://www.blackvisionsmn.org/
    Reclaim the Block has an actual website, once you get past the up front and center design focus of it.
    https://www.reclaimtheblock.org/

    They both reference the following petition:
    https://secure.everyaction.com/eR7GA7oz70GL8doBq19LrA2

    (bit.ly/defundmpd which is shared on their facebook)

    I'm reading it now.

    And I've finished reading, the demands still are - well, feel good insanity.

    "To never again increase budget." So you mean this has to be made constitutional? Oh wait, even the constitution can be changed.. So this is pure insanity?

    "As the city responds to Covid-19" nice, you've made it a cross over with another unrelated large issue in your second demand already! Boy, working with you politically must be fun...

    Expand investment in "community-led health and safety strategies" that specific, ey? Play out the police against 'community interest'? That has written success all over it...

    No violence? Replace guns with flowers? In law enforcement?

    Thank you for your contributions.

    Again to be fair, there are other civil society activist groups, backing the protest, whose demands are more useful.
     
    Last edited by notimp, Jun 1, 2020
  18. FAST6191

    FAST6191 Techromancer
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    I have no idea where you would have got that impression.
    Seriously. This section has existed for longer than you have been a member, and discussions consistently can be found dating back basically the forum's inception (while this section is newer and things used to go into general off topic and user submitted you can find examples of such threads in this one going back to 2006 or so). There are no rules against it, nor would such things within the spirit of the general principles of discussion/logical conclusion of the rules governing the discussion.


    Unjustified police shootings, much less those caused by racism, do seem very thin on the ground, and please point at where I said such things should be ignored or even could be reasonably concluded to have that as my premise.

    Whether the number as a whole is low (which I was not discussing there) we could look at different countries to compare, and it would probably be on the higher side (even for places with more lax gun laws). As a first pass UK wise seldom breaks 5 ( https://www.statista.com/statistics/319246/police-fatal-shootings-england-wales/ ) and is 1/5 the size population wise (about 66 million to the US' 330 million, which is a far cry from the 200 or so times that would have to be to have population parity). Now UK gun laws are rather harsher, though at the same time there are things here that US peeps would love to have, but given the London murder rate and rather stabby at that is among the first thing to be looked at should the argument be broached then yeah.

    Re: private police. They exist in several places already. Have done in various capacities for decades in current form but longer in others, and the fuzzy edges vis a vis things like university campuses, off duty security contracts and police contract work get odder still.
    https://www.chicagotribune.com/nation-world/chi-private-police-20150301-story.html is a 2015 story on the matter.
    The history of such services is spotty but at the same time is something of a feeder into police, sort of training units and other such things.
    At the same time I do not imagine those being spoken to as part of the protests have a particularly nuanced understanding of the matter. The same sort of thing as "we want all police officers to have cameras" (there are some nice on gun ones as well starting to come in now as well) up until they start to repeatedly disprove false narratives.

    Re state monopolies on power. Is that why jurisdiction issues between federal agencies themselves, federal and state, state and local, tribal fun all down the line, municipal (see some of the university stuff, though districts within them is also a fun one), prison and whatever else are a frequent source of fun and games? Sure at some level that could all be described as the state but eh.
     
  19. notimp

    notimp Well-Known Member
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    In contrast, I have my local (left leaning) newspaper in europe now state the following in a headlining position in todays paper:

    "Its now central for the US to admit structural racism instead of individualizing what happened in this case."

    Protests have flared up in more than two dozen other states. In 15 US states the national guard was deployed.

    So its bigger than 'just another small case' already.

    Minneapolis, New York, Washington, Los Angeles and Philadelphia have enacted nightly curfews. Which were broken by protesters.

    There have been encounters in front of the white house which made the president tweet, that he would move the most vicious dogs, and most ominous weapons against anyone who would climb over the white house fence.

    United States 2020.

    edit: The officer in question now has been detained.
     
    Last edited by notimp, Jun 1, 2020
  20. FAST6191

    FAST6191 Techromancer
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    "Structural" racism, along with institutional which is more or less the same thing, is a term that has been bandied about for years now. The whole slavery and civil rights thing took rather longer than is ideal, and there were a few other things along the way, but I am not seeing any evidence of present overt, covert, systemic failings being allowed to continue that speak to that.

    Does America fail its poor massively such that interaction with law enforcement, which with the fines doing things like suspending your driving abilities (rather important in a lot of the US for other stupid reasons) also playing into it, is a common and thus possibly disproportionally trouble those with varying amounts of melanin? Sure.
    Is it racism at its heart? That is a harder sell and I would sooner put that at the almost pathological fear of anything resembling communism as it was seen in the world, but now not seen for so long and people lacking an understanding...
    If I wanted to sort problems I would sooner see education reform, crime reforms (as in actually attempt rehabilitation), welfare reforms, healthcare reforms (and education), drug treatment/policy reform, attempts made to create sustainable business in areas that would benefit from it, community formation... the rising tide lifts all ships approach.
     
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