A Question for Americans

[Law]

America: Where the poor stay poor and the rich get richer.

 

[Advi]

problem is that people in America can let the government pay for all of their expenses because they're lazy as shit.

I for one don't want to pay for some wanker to get free health care while the rest of us with JOBS do all of the work.

And yes, that sound bigoted, but its true. I have PERSONALLY seen people who ride along on checks they get from a welfare office every week.

The worst part is how health care companies end up taking the blame for this. They make the least amount of profit from health care on average, and are the target of attack because they're the biggest. It really is simply is sickening how in the end, all we have is losers on easy street and more ammo for Glenn Beck.

 

[Densetsu]

Obama is the weakest man alive. He made so many promisses and took them all back now that he's feeling the real heat of North American politics. He is a shame to the world.Obama is just a figurehead. Regardless of who is elected for President, no one person can fix the mess that is the US health care system. It would take a complete overhaul of the system from the ground up.

Argh... No socialized healthcare.

There's a reason why the US is rated one of the top (if not the top) countries in the world for the hospitals.. It's because we have great doctors, and passing a healthcare reform will decrease the doctor's pay. Then the doctor's will quit their job. There's nothing that annoys me more than people who say "yeah well the doctor's earn too much anyway." Dude, try spending 12 years getting a Ph.d (after graduating high school) and see just how "easy" it is to become a doctor. It isn't. It's one of the hardest jobs in the world.

Survival of the fittest.. Capitalism is the best way to go for a country to succeed. Once we start socializing healthcare, who knows what else will be socialized with that. We will stop moving forward, and just stay where we are..I agree with you that becoming a doctor (whether MD or Ph.D) is one of the most difficult things to do in terms of professional career. I am a medical student myself.

It's also true that the US has some of the top hospitals in the world. That's because we have more money than any other country and we have the means to build top-notch facilities; however, the health care system in the US is abysmal. I'm embarrassed to say that we have THE WORST health care system in the entire developed world. Anyone who disagrees with this is badly misinformed.

The reason why our health care is so bad is because the US health care system is the only market-driven system in the world. Yes, it's because of capitalism. Doctors actually don't make much money, it's the hospital administrators (many of whom aren't even doctors, but rather hold MBAs) and CEOs of the health insurance companies. Primary health care physicians in the US may make about $120,000 a year, but because their income is high enough to put them the highest tax bracket, they get taxed 55% of their income. That puts their net income at $54,000, which is equivalent to a high-ranking position working for the state (which requires much less education). Specialists like surgeons make lots of money, but primary care physicians (the ones you go to for regular checkups or non-serious illnesses) don't.

Why not socialized health care? It works in every other part of the world, and surprise...we've already socialized lots of institutions in the US. For example, we have the police, firefighters, and the big one, K-12 education. The reason why people in the US are against socialized health care is because the ones who are capitalizing off of everyone's sickness will lose out. There's also been propaganda over the past several decades that "socialism is evil," when that's not true at all. I still believe in capitalism, but when you're dealing with the lives of other people, it should be altruistic and not money-driven like it is now.

*EDIT*
QUOTE(Nin10doFan @ Dec 24 2009, 04:57 PM)

Uh, it's called Health Insurance. Even crappy jobs provide it.

Being insured in the US won't completely protect you. And insurance companies reserve the right to drop you from their policy for whatever reason they see fit. In fact, they have people whose sole job is to look at all of your medical history and find something--anything--that they could use against you as grounds for dropping you. If an insured woman is diagnosed with cancer, they look for loopholes. For example, if she failed to report a non-serious condition that she had years ago (such as a yeast infection) when she applied for the health insurance, they can drop her for failing to disclose it. And not everyone in the US is even insured. Heaven help them if they ever get sick. The #1 cause of bankruptcy in the US is health bills.

Man, I have so much more to say on this subject it's not even funny. I'm glad there's a thread like this because I would love to discuss this in-depth with anyone who's interested.

 

[Destructobot]

Most people in this country have no concept of why our health care system doesn't work. In countries that have socialized health care, four things happen that make it work.

First, everyone is covered. No one is excluded because of their health, age or income. In this country emergency care cannot be refused because of lack of insurance, so either way we pay for the people that can't afford insurance to get emergency care.

Second, everyone that has enough income has to pay for health care. Either everyone pays the same price, or there is a sliding scale based on income, not age or health. This can be done through a government health plan like in the UK, or through private insurers, but the point is you can't wait until you get sick or injured to start paying. If people only pay when they actually need health care, the price will obviously need to be very high.

Third, insurers are not allowed to profit from basic care, only extended plans that cover more elective stuff and offer more flexibility.

Fourth, costs for particular services are capped. A hospital can only charge a certain amount for a given service. These price lists are renegotiated every year, and when done properly they strike a balance between paying hospitals enough to stay in business and keeping prices low enough for the people to afford.


The right wingers in this country tend to have an attitude of "what's mine is mine, if you want some you can go get your own" even though proper health care reform would make their bills go down instead of up. They also object in general to the government telling them they have to do something, regardless of what it is.

As for any job providing health insurance, many don't, and if you run your own small business you have to pay for your own insurance. My mother does this. She's in good health, but because she's over 60 her insurance costs around $800 a month.

As far as what's happening in Washington right now, will any bill that's been screwed up by dozens of senators and hundreds of representatives add up to proper health care reform? I doubt it.

The White House doesn't create laws, the legislature does. The President cannot introduce a bill in the house or the senate, he can only sign it once both houses approve it. Good president or not, it isn't Obama's fault that this issue has taken so long.


As for me, I don't have a job that provides health care and I can't afford to pay for it myself. If I get sick I'm fucked. I have to wait until I either get better or get so bad the hospitals can't turn me away, and at that point it could be too late.

 

[yuyuyup]

I don't want a doctor that's in it for the money. I guess that makes me a facist islamo.

 

[Densetsu]

All dat ???+1

If someone in the US breaks an arm and is uninsured, it would be cheaper for that person to fly to Canada or even Cuba to have it fixed. That's the tragedy of the health care system. We're one of the richest countries in the world, and we can't even take care of our own.

The board of directors who run the HMOs are so rich that they can pay off members of congress to vote the way they want them to. It has nothing to do with doctors. Doctors truly want to help people, but they're pressured by the higher-ups to see more patients in less time. Hospitals tell their doctors to spend only 15 minutes with their patients. In that time, they have to take a patient history, make a diagnosis and suggest a course for treatment. Let me tell you, I'm learning how to take a patient history and it took me an hour to do it with a standardized patient the first time. For my exam I had 45 minutes to do it, and that was difficult. Now, doctors do it in less than 15 minutes. And they do it patient after patient, non-stop every day.

When I ask primary care doctors what their biggest complaint is, it's never about how little they're being paid (even though it's not much). Their number one complaint is that they don't get to spend more time with their patients and build up rapport with them. A lot of doctors get jaded by the system after years of pressure by the hospital managers.

In other countries, doctors don't have to worry about that. They work in an environment that is conducive to treating patients, and they can sit down and talk with them and answer any questions they have. In France, doctors still make house calls. Good luck finding a doctor who can do that in the US.

QUOTE(yuyuyup @ Dec 24 2009, 05:57 PM) I don't want a doctor that's in it for the money. I guess that makes me a facist islamo.

Like I said, most doctors aren't in it for the money. If I wanted to be rich, I could think of at least a dozen other ways to do it, and it would take much less time.

Think about it. Nowhere else in the professional world can you go meet someone, take off your clothes when they ask you to, have them feel various parts of your body, and have them tell you "we're going to cut you open and examine your insides and then sew you back up, give you some drugs and everything's going to be okay" and have it be legal. That takes a huge amount of trust, it's a very unique relationship between two people where one has agreed to help a complete stranger. It's an altruistic and honorable profession, even though most people love to hate their doctors.

Any doctor who is in it for the money is treading in dangerous waters, and would be immediately blacklisted by the medical community if it ever got out.

 

[Destructobot]

One point I'd like to add, you can go too far in bringing health care prices down. In Japan hospitals are paid next to nothing for things like suturing up a small wound, and very little for bigger things like surgery and expensive tests. This is great for the people paying, but half of their hospitals are in danger of going bankrupt as a result.

 

[ThatDudeWithTheFood]

Its not a mandate you can take it if you want it but its not like you get super duper insurance itll be average and hes not increasing taxes infact hes lowering them for 97% of america unless your that really wealthy 3% i see no reason why you would be pissed.

 

[Densetsu]

One point I'd like to add, you can go too far in bringing health care prices down. In Japan hospitals are paid next to nothing for things like suturing up a small wound, and very little for bigger things like surgery and expensive tests. This is great for the people paying, but half of their hospitals are in danger of going bankrupt as a result.

This is one of the main reasons that the number of pediatricians is on the decline in Japan.

There's no need to bringing health care prices down so far that the money it generates can no longer sustain its physicians. But you can force health insurance companies to compete with each other in an open market where people can choose any company they want. That's what Obama is pushing for, but I think they're going about it all wrong by calling for a $900 billion budget. Throwing more money at the problem will only lead to more wasted spending.

 

[RebelX]

Argh... No socialized healthcare.

There's a reason why the US is rated one of the top (if not the top) countries in the world for the hospitals.. It's because we have great doctors, and passing a healthcare reform will decrease the doctor's pay. Then the doctor's will quit their job. There's nothing that annoys me more than people who say "yeah well the doctor's earn too much anyway." Dude, try spending 12 years getting a Ph.d (after graduating high school) and see just how "easy" it is to become a doctor. It isn't. It's one of the hardest jobs in the world.

Survival of the fittest.. Capitalism is the best way to go for a country to succeed. Once we start socializing healthcare, who knows what else will be socialized with that. We will stop moving forward, and just stay where we are..

Why would a doctor quit their job just because of a pay decrease? After all that time they spent on their education they're just gonna call it quits because of a little pay cut?

I also enjoy that slippery slope argument you threw in there.

 

[jesuschristmonke]

A bit serious I know but I've been catching snippets of this on British News and am bemused by the whole thing. Mainly I can't understand why people are against this.

Because like everything the politicians promise it only looks good on paper. Once you dig in it is fraught with problems. For one nothing gets written/passed without the explicit approval of the insurance companies and pharma corporations.

But here is the fundamental problem:

This law forbids insurers from denying pre-existing conditions. Okay, fine. And there is a penalty of ~$750 a year for not having health insurance. Right now insurance premiums costs a family in the thousands per year. So there is no incentive to pay more when you don't need to. Get sick? You'll worry about it then, they can't deny you. Injured in a car accident? That's covered by auto insurance. People are not stupid, they'll figure this out in mass.

So what do you think happens when far less people are buying a company's (health insurer in this case) products? They go under. And then government will have no choice but to move to a universal socialized system. Great, right? Yes, if we weren't a bankrupt nation running on fumes who thought we could collectively borrow our way to prosperity. And all indications are that the UK is leveraged worse than us (in real, not nominal terms.)

 

[Jamstruth]

Sorry for a bump here but I forgot to check this thread and have read through it and just notice Mr. ChristMonkey's response to me.

Yes, the Britain is in the red by a LOONNG LOONNG way, hell we're still in recession despite everywhere else being out but that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with our NHS, and also don't say "jolly old England" I take a rather large offense to that being British not English having lived in Scotland my whole life. Britain/United Kingdom (an Irish guy can correct me if I'm wrong there) is Wales, England, Scotland and Northern Ireland. Also, we don't all talk posh.

USA forced into a socialised system? Meh, this is not exactly a bad thing as it means free healthcare for everybody and it will be healthcare people can afford as it will probably be calculated alongside tax. As far as I can tell most of the complainers are the people who have the money for insurance and don't want to support the poorer folks which as said by many they do already from Emergency Treatments.

This has been an interesting topic for me to read as it has allowed me a pretty nice insight into the opinions of a large section of Americans, for example the Obama haters (seriously we love the guy here in the UK can we maybe arrange a leader swap?) who are jaded as Obama has not fulifilled all promises (something I don't think you can hold against the guy as the Economic Crisis and other events may have dealt a blow to is plans)

 

[Uncle FEFL]

Sorry for a bump here but I forgot to check this thread and have read through it and just notice Mr. ChristMonkey's response to me.

Yes, the Britain is in the red by a LOONNG LOONNG way, hell we're still in recession despite everywhere else being out but that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with our NHS, and also don't say "jolly old England" I take a rather large offense to that being British not English having lived in Scotland my whole life. Britain/United Kingdom (an Irish guy can correct me if I'm wrong there) is Wales, England, Scotland and Northern Ireland. Also, we don't all talk posh.

USA forced into a socialised system? Meh, this is not exactly a bad thing as it means free healthcare for everybody and it will be healthcare people can afford as it will probably be calculated alongside tax. As far as I can tell most of the complainers are the people who have the money for insurance and don't want to support the poorer folks which as said by many they do already from Emergency Treatments.

This has been an interesting topic for me to read as it has allowed me a pretty nice insight into the opinions of a large section of Americans, for example the Obama haters (seriously we love the guy here in the UK can we maybe arrange a leader swap?) who are jaded as Obama has not fulifilled all promises (something I don't think you can hold against the guy as the Economic Crisis and other events may have dealt a blow to is plans)

I like Obama, but what is there to love about him other than the fact he's a very respectful and encouraging man? He has not answered one of his promises yet. It's been over a year.

I come from a lower middle class family, and my mom is a single parent working two jobs. I would love to have free healthcare. It's just one less (or maybe just cheaper) bill for her to pay. Plus, it's a great way to have our country cared for.

PS: About the UK, yeah, that's what it consists of. My last name, Seay is of Irish decent (more specifically Northern Ireland, and the pages that I searched on to research my last name all said that it was a UK, Northern Ireland name).

 

[jesuschristmonke]

Jamstruth - Sorry, didn't mean to offend. Edited. Noted for future.

FEFL - Yes, we all had high hopes for Obama, but he's only a brand, nothing more. He rode a wave of bankers money to the White House and noe he's following orders.

 

[Magmorph]

Look at the bright side, at least Sarah Palin isn't the president.

 

[sumarth]

Look at the bright side, at least Sarah Palin isn't the president.

thank god

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the thing about the socialized plan is that is being discussed is that it forces consumers to buy a product
this goes agains the very values on which the country is founded

a better alternative could be a choice of a health savings account in which you must keep a sustained $10,000 or something to pay for possible medical costs. of course this should be a choice, which is what is needed

choice to do things the way you want!

 

[jesuschristmonke]

Look at the bright side, at least Sarah Palin isn't the president.

Just wait until 2012.

And yes, Americans are dumb enough.

 

[Magmorph]

If she gets elected it will be a sign of the apocalypse. I have always wanted to move out of this country. Even then, if she gets elected there will be no escaping the world wide effects it would have.

 

[Uncle FEFL]

Jamstruth - Sorry, didn't mean to offend. Edited. Noted for future.

FEFL - Yes, we all had high hopes for Obama, but he's only a brand, nothing more. He rode a wave of bankers money to the White House and noe he's following orders.

Like what?

 

[Jamstruth]

PS: About the UK, yeah, that's what it consists of. My last name, Seay is of Irish decent (more specifically Northern Ireland, and the pages that I searched on to research my last name all said that it was a UK, Northern Ireland name).

Its more the "Britain" part as I think that includes the RoI as its part of the British Isles so "Britain" might not be the most accurate description of the UK

QUOTE(jesuschristmonkeyballs @ Dec 27 2009, 03:32 AM) Jamstruth - Sorry, didn't mean to offend. Edited. Noted for future.

Its just something that annoys me and, if nothing else, adds to the stereotype of ignorant Americans who know nothing of the world beyond their borders. When talking in terms of economic trouble you can't just talk about England but instead the whole of the UK.