Do You Believe In God?

chaoskagami · Jul 3, 2016

We're playing a game of semantics here. There are two options (that require justification):

* Believe in god (theism)
* Don't believe in god (atheism)

Agnostic is pointing out that the justification is missing on both and refusing to conclude a flawed argument.

Lacius · Jul 3, 2016

gnmmarechal said:
yet, I don't believe either. I'm contradicting myself again, am I not?
If I lack lacking the belief, and I also lack the belief, what the hell do I believe in x.x

That's why it is a dichotomy. You either believe, or you do not. It would be a paradox to say you simultaneously don't believe and don't don't believe.

gnmmarechal · Jul 3, 2016

Lacius said:
That's why it is a dichotomy. You either believe, or you do not. It would be a paradox to say you simultaneously don't believe and don't don't believe.

Yet, that is exactly what I think. That I both don't believe and don't don't believe.

Code:

throw new System.InvalidOperationException("Mind blown");

mashers · Jul 3, 2016

Lacius said:
That's exactly what disbelief means, actually.

I'll quote the OED again:

disbelief: inability or refusal to accept that something is true or real

Saying "I don't know whether it exists/is real or not" is not the same as being unable or refusing to accept it. It means "I don't know; it might; it might not".

gnmmarechal · Jul 3, 2016

mashers said:
I'll quote the OED again:

disbelief: inability or refusal to accept that something is true or real

Saying "I don't know whether it exists/is real or not" is not the same as being unable or refusing to accept it. It means "I don't know; it might; it might not".

Actually, it is.

You're unable to accept it as true, per definition. Which doesn't mean it is false.

@Lacius I see your point now, but still, my own beliefs still contradict themselves.

chaoskagami · Jul 3, 2016

gnmmarechal said:
Yet, that is exactly what I think. That I both don't believe and don't don't believe.

In a nutshell, Agnosticism is like shouting 'Objection!'

gnmmarechal · Jul 3, 2016

chaoskagami said:
In a nutshell, Agnosticism is like shouting 'Objection!'

woo, that's a pretty good way of putting it.

Lacius · Jul 3, 2016

mashers said:
I'll quote the OED again:

disbelief: inability or refusal to accept that something is true or real

Saying "I don't know whether it exists/is real or not" is not the same as being unable or refusing to accept it. It means "I don't know; it might; it might not".

Disbelief literally means not believing, as per your definition. You are right that saying "I don't know whether it exists" is not the same thing as being unable to accept the claim; there are agnostic believers, after all. It's your inability to accept the claim that means you do not accept it, by definition.

I am getting tired of saying by definition, but we really are dealing with the definitions of words like disbelief that are not controversial.

bi388 · Jul 3, 2016

Til this forum is a lot more intelligent than I though lmao

TrolleyDave · Jul 8, 2016

Interesting thread. I'm atheist in the traditional sense of the idea in which not only do I lack a belief in God but I hold an active belief that there is no God. I feel there are good reasons, philosophically, to believe that there is no creator being and that a creator being, especially of the kind implied by theology, is incredibly unlikely.

spotanjo3 · Jul 9, 2016

Well.. I understand but why not point to a house ? Who made that house ? Everyone knows that someone had to make it. The house certainly did not make itself! If you want to read your bible then here: Hebrews 3.4

What about a flower ? Who made this ? No man made did. And just as the house did not make itself, so this flower did not make itself either. Someone made it. Who ? You know who.

Oh yeah, Wo made the birds and taught them to sing? See?

I understand that you can't see it and you don't believe it. Yeah, some people say they don't believe in God because they can't see him. Hey, it is true that we cannot see God. The bible says: "No man can see God." That's why no one should try to make a picture or an image of God. God even tells us not to make an image of him. The bible here: Exodus 20:4, 5; 33:20, John 1:18.

Okay, if you cannot see God, how do you know that there really is a God ? Think about it. Can you see the wind ? You can't but you can see the things the wind does. You can see the leaves move when the wind blows through the branches of a tree. So you believe that there is wind.

TrolleyDave · Jul 9, 2016

I'm at my girlfriend's for the weekend, but I'll come back to your points on Monday, @azoreseuropa.

mashers · Jul 9, 2016

@azoreseuropa
I don't think any sane person would dispute that flowers/birds/Earth/the universe was created somehow. The question is not whether it was created but how or by whom it was created. Some believe it was god, some believe it was aliens, some believe other things. God is not the only possible explanation, even if it's the one you believe.

spotanjo3 · Jul 9, 2016

mashers said:
@azoreseuropa
I don't think any sane person would dispute that flowers/birds/Earth/the universe was created somehow. The question is not whether it was created but how or by whom it was created. Some believe it was god, some believe it was aliens, some believe other things. God is not the only possible explanation, even if it's the one you believe.

Okay, then tell me how flowers/birds/Earth and the universe was created ? From Big Bang, Evolution ? I hope you aren't going to say yes because it doesn't make sense.

Jack Daniels · Jul 9, 2016

chaoskagami said:
If we're being pedantic, the closest relative DNA-wise is the chimpanzee.

wrong it's DNA is pig the closest, in looks and built however we're close to the chimps

FAST6191 · Jul 9, 2016

azoreseuropa said:
Well.. I understand but why not point to a house ? Who made that house ? Everyone knows that someone had to make it. The house certainly did not make itself! If you want to read your bible then here: Hebrews 3.4

What about a flower ? Who made this ? No man made did. And just as the house did not make itself, so this flower did not make itself either. Someone made it. Who ? You know who.

Oh yeah, Wo made the birds and taught them to sing? See?

I understand that you can't see it and you don't believe it. Yeah, some people say they don't believe in God because they can't see him. Hey, it is true that we cannot see God. The bible says: "No man can see God." That's why no one should try to make a picture or an image of God. God even tells us not to make an image of him. The bible here: Exodus 20:4, 5; 33:20, John 1:18.

Okay, if you cannot see God, how do you know that there really is a God ? Think about it. Can you see the wind ? You can't but you can see the things the wind does. You can see the leaves move when the wind blows through the branches of a tree. So you believe that there is wind.

The flower arguably did make itself from a fertilised seed, or by propagating from another plant. That is besides the point though. So the flower presumably evolved from earlier plants which evolved from older and older types of life as we know it. The start of life on earth is a bit of mystery still but early earth experiments have shown some interesting things with self arranging carbon compounds, which would presumably then turn into RNA and then DNA and then evolution kicks in for real. Equally there are plenty of man made flowers, depending upon how you want to define man made. So now we are going further and further back "some god made the laws of physics which then became" and that is what is known as god of the gaps which we talked about earlier.

Birds presumably followed a similar path into existence, and them singing is a whole field. We could talk about the evolutionary advantages of communication. We could talk about humans only consider it singing maybe because they are taught it is singing, also the one that taught my birds was my mum, and then one bird taught the other.

Yes human sight is quite limited in what is needs to reliably detect things, range of frequencies it can see, zoom capability and update frequency, however as you say you can detect things via other means. Thus far nobody has provided any evidence that stands up to scrutiny for any of the infinite number of gods that have been contemplated throughout human history. Lack of evidence is not proof of absence but with the amount of liars, charlatans, frauds, deluded and those seeking to control that have attempted to use such things throughout history I fail to see how the concept is not seriously damaged and having to be subject to serious scepticism when it comes to claims made by those with such an agenda.

spotanjo3 · Jul 9, 2016

LOL. No way.. You have no proof either. A Big Bang and Evolution is false. Science can't prove a thing. In science effectively all ideas are “just” theories.

Scientists often use concepts from the philosophy of science to make some semantic distinctions between laws, theories, hypotheses, and the like.

No, I mean before an Earth started and a life started on Earth. That's my point.

In science …

Everything’s a theory.
Proof doesn’t exist.
Nothing is certain.

I rest my case.

mashers · Jul 9, 2016

azoreseuropa said:
Okay, then tell me how flowers/birds/Earth and the universe was created ? From Big Bang, Evolution ? I hope you aren't going to say yes because it doesn't make sense.

I didn't say I have the answer. I just said that not everybody believes what you believe. As for evolution, read this then come back and tell me it doesn't make sense.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Origin-Species-Charles-Darwin/dp/1533362955/

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

azoreseuropa said:
Evolution is false.

No disrespect intended, but that's absolutely ridiculous.

chaoskagami · Jul 9, 2016

azoreseuropa said:
LOL. No way.. You have no proof either. A Big Bang and Evolution is false. Science can't prove a thing. In science effectively all ideas are “just” theories.

Scientists often use concepts from the philosophy of science to make some semantic distinctions between laws, theories, hypotheses, and the like.

No, I mean before an Earth started and a life started on Earth. That's my point.

In science …

Everything’s a theory.

Proof doesn’t exist.

Nothing is certain.

I rest my case.

chaoskagami said:
So if I believe gravity doesn't exist, does it not exist?

I dunno, my feet seem pretty planted on the ground here.

@azoreseuropa. Gravity is not a theory. Nor is electromagnetism, nor are the laws of thermodynamics. Nor is atomic force. Evolution can be proved genetically. If in fact if "Science" was false, you wouldn't be posting here on this forum, you'd probably be dead before you turned 40, and nuclear weapons would have never been invented.

I suggest you take a very critical look at what you just said.

Anyways, exiting this thread now. It's gone on long enough, and nobody is discussing rationally at this point.

phalk · Jul 9, 2016

In a superior entity that everything came from, yes.
In the god that churches and religions try to make me believe, no.

mashers said:
I didn't say I have the answer. I just said that not everybody believes what you believe. As for evolution, read this then come back and tell me it doesn't make sense.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Origin-Species-Charles-Darwin/dp/1533362955/

No disrespect intended, but that's absolutely ridiculous.

Don't even try, mashers. People like that can't have a discussion over anything.

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