[POLL] 2020 U.S. Presidential Election

[Whole lotta love]

You're thinking is damaged then. If you want to run your own business then go make one, but if you're working for someone else it's not your place to tell them how to run their business as that would likely get you fired then you'd be making $0.00 per hour.

I'm not really interested in what demands workers ought to be allowed to make. A socialist system that does not operate on profit and instead produces to meet the needs of the community would be more efficient than one designed for people to get rich (ie hoard resources and power).

Profit is the single solitary motive to engage in any business activity ever and it has lifted the majority of world's population from poverty. This is an undeniable fact.

Capitalism is the cause of that poverty in the first place. There are a lot of issues with how the World Bank calculates poverty worldwide (largely because they don't really adjust for inflation) but you might be interested to know the vast majority of those people being lifted out of "poverty" (as defined by the World Bank) is due to China industrializing under the Chinese Communist Party.

 

[Foxi4]

money makes people less poor, what logic.

That's correct.

https://fee.org/articles/extreme-poverty-rates-plummet-under-capitalism/

Capitalism is the cause of that poverty in the first place. There are a lot of issues with how the World Bank calculates poverty worldwide (largely because they don't really adjust for inflation) but you might be interested to know the vast majority of those people being lifted out of "poverty" (as defined by the World Bank) is due to China industrializing under the Chinese Communist Party.

Complete and utter nonsense based on all available data. The opposite is true.

Capitalist principles have enabled an unprecedented decrease in poverty rates. The global rate of extreme poverty decreased by 50% just between 1990 and 2013. Communism on the other hand killed around a 100 million people within 100 years of its prominence because, as it turns out, people don't necessarily want to share and you need an aparathus of violence and repression to take from them by force.

 

[gregory-samba]

I'm not really interested in what demands workers ought to be allowed to make. A socialist system that does not operate on profit and instead produces to meet the needs of the community would be more efficient than one designed for people to get rich (ie hoard resources and power).

Well, we don't live under a socialist system and you're also wrong. If you give the Government the power to dictate every move you make you'll have even less freedom to demand the place you work at do things for you that you don't deserve. Do you really think that you can change basic human nature and somehow replace the current Government with 100% honest people? LOL, boy, you're in for a reckoning.

 

[Foxi4]

Well, we don't live under a socialist system and you're also wrong. If you give the Government the power to dictate every move you make you'll have even less freedom to demand the place you work at do things for you that you don't deserve. Do you really think that you can change basic human nature and somehow replace the current Government with 100% honest people? LOL, boy, you're in for a reckoning.

It's easy to feed people when you kill half of them, take everything they had and feed the other half with what you reaped. One small problem - at some point you run out of villages to pillage. The single solitary reason why China is doing well right now is because *it adopted capitalist principles* in terms of business while maintaining the oppressive regime in power. They learned from U.S.S.R's failings which prevented the country from disintegrating. Giants on clay legs.

 

[Whole lotta love]

That's correct.

https://fee.org/articles/extreme-poverty-rates-plummet-under-capitalism/

Complete and utter nonsense based on all available data. The opposite is true.

Capitalist principles have enabled an unprecedented decrease in poverty rates. The global rate of extreme poverty decreased by 50% just between 1990 and 2013. Communism on the other hand killed around a 100 million people within 100 years of its prominence because, as it turns out, people don't necessarily want to share and you need an aparathus of violence and repression to take from them by force.

Then why did "communism" lift most of the people out of poverty in the 20th century?

Well, we don't live under a socialist system and you're also wrong. If you give the Government the power to dictate every move you make you'll have even less freedom to demand the place you work at do things for you that you don't deserve. Do you really think that you can change basic human nature and somehow replace the current Government with 100% honest people? LOL, boy, you're in for a reckoning.

Yes, we don't live under a socialist system and I think we should, which is why I voted for a socialist.

Right now businesses and the government have incredibly strong control over our lives. I live in the US which is a surveillance state because of the gross expansion of the surveillance state after 9/11 alongside the unregulated growth of big tech. Google and Apple have tremendous control over what people say and track people's every move. They work hand in fist with federal agencies to monitor and repress individuals who step out of line of what is acceptable political thought and action.

A libertarian socialist structure similar to what is in practice in Rojava, Cherán, and EZLN controlled areas of Chiapas would drastically improve the quality of life of the working class here by giving power directly to the people and tearing down the authoritarian structures of the US Government and big business. Libertarian socialism avoids the pitfalls of previous socialist projects by decentralizing power.

 

[gregory-samba]

Then why did "communism" lift most of the people out of poverty in the 20th century?



Yes, we don't live under a socialist system and I think we should, which is why I voted for a socialist.

Right now businesses and the government have incredibly strong control over our lives. I live in the US which is a surveillance state because of the gross expansion of the surveillance state after 9/11 alongside the unregulated growth of big tech. Google and Apple have tremendous control over what people say and track people's every move. They work hand in fist with federal agencies to monitor and repress individuals who step out of line of what is acceptable political thought and action.

A libertarian socialist structure similar to what is in practice in Rojava, Cherán, and EZLN controlled areas of Chiapas would drastically improve the quality of life of the working class here by giving power directly to the people and tearing down the authoritarian structures of the US Government and big business.

Good luck trying to fire the entire current Government and replace them with perfect people. Never gonna happen.

 

[Whole lotta love]

Good luck trying to fire the entire current Government and replace them with perfect people. Never gonna happen.

I agree that's not feasible which is why I'm not arguing for that. Please don't strawman me.

 

[Doran754]

I agree that's not feasible which is why I'm not arguing for that. Please don't strawman me.

Lives in America, complains about capitalism. Like It's impossible for you to get on a plane and move to Venezuela or Cuba.
Why dont you move to one of them countries? If I hated the system I lived under in my country I'd get out, and yet ... you don't. Curious eh.

 

[gregory-samba]

I agree that's not feasible which is why I'm not arguing for that. Please don't strawman me.

Not a strawman at all. If you want a perfect system of government you'll have to remove the current one - completely, as it's full of dishonest people who do bad things and those types would ruin any attempt at socialism.

Think about it. Do you ever lie, cheat, steal, curse, sleep around? I'm sure you've done at least one of those things in your lifetime and you and every single other person would have to stop all of those behaviors and a lot more to even come close to being able to have a socialist system that would function.

 

[Foxi4]

Then why did "communism" lift most of the people out of poverty in the 20th century?

It didn't.

The process of industrialisation under the Chinese Communist Party you're referring to, aka "The Great Leap Forward" caused wide-spread famine due to poor agricultural policy, killing around 55 million people through starvation, not to mention the lives lost through systematic murder of political dissidents. The country didn't get any better until they "stopped leaping" and started trading with the Western powers. What saved China was capitalism, and U.S. policy that advocated mutually beneficial trade with them, as opposed to spending them out of existence like they did with the Soviets.

The exact number of famine deaths is difficult to determine, and estimates range from upwards of 30 million, to 55 million people. Because of the uncertainties involved in estimating famine deaths caused by the Great Leap Forward or any famine, it is difficult to compare the severity of different famines. However, if a low estimate of 30 million deaths is accepted, the Great Leap Forward was the deadliest famine in the history of China and in the history of the world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward

This is a familiar tune since the same thing happened in Ukraine:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

Sounds like a great plan, sign me up. For the record, I'm *from* a post-Soviet country, I was born before the Berlin Wall fell, so the false song you're singing here isn't going to work. The policies you espouse have failed everywhere they were tried and resulted in genocide every single time. It's not "going to work this time", it doesn't work.

 

[gregory-samba]

It didn't.

The process of industrialisation under the Chinese Communist Party you're referring to, aka "The Great Leap Forward" caused wide-spread famine due to poor agricultural policy, killing around 55 million people through starvation, not to mention the lives lost through systematic murder of political dissidents. The country didn't get any better until they "stopped leaping" and started trading with the Western powers.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward

This is a familiar tune since the same thing happened in Ukraine:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

Sounds like a great plan, sign me up. For the record, I'm *from* a post-Soviet country, I was born before the Berlin Wall fell, so the false song you're singing here isn't going to work. The policies you espouse have failed everywhere they were tried and resulted in genocide every single time. It's not "going to work this time", it doesn't work.

I do often wonder why the party that hates old white rich men want socialism as a form of Government. That's their solution? Elect an old rich white man to implement a system made by old rich white men that only benefits the leaders of that system and gives the Government complete control over them taking away any freedoms they had before hand. Seems to sort of counter their value system. Why the USA school system keeps producing these types I'll never know.

 

[Whole lotta love]

Lives in America, complains about capitalism. Like It's impossible for you to get on a plane and move to Venezuela or Cuba.
Why dont you move to one of them countries? If I hated the system I lived under in my country I'd get out, and yet ... you don't. Curious eh.

This is such a weird argument. Do you believe that everyone who wants to change something about the US government should move away?
All my friends and family are here.

Not a strawman at all. If you want a perfect system of government you'll have to remove the current one - completely, as it's full of dishonest people who do bad things and those types would ruin any attempt at socialism.

Think about it. Do you ever lie, cheat, steal, curse, sleep around? I'm sure you've done at least one of those things in your lifetime and you and every single other person would have to stop all of those behaviors and a lot more to even come close to being able to have a socialist system that would function.

I'm not calling for an ideal system, I'm calling for a better system.

It didn't.

The process of industrialisation under the Chinese Communist Party you're referring to, aka "The Great Leap Forward" caused wide-spread famine due to poor agricultural policy, killing around 55 million people through starvation and even more through systematic murder of political dissidents. The country didn't get any better until they "stopped leaping" and started trading with the Western powers.

The World Bank statistic you referenced about people being lifted out of poverty is largely because of China. Do you want to walk that back? Do you disagree with World Bank?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward

This is a familiar tune since the same thing happened in Ukraine:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

Sounds like a great plan, sign me up. For the record, I'm *from* a post-Soviet country, I was born before the Berlin Wall fell, so the false song you're singing here isn't going to work. The policies you espouse have failed everywhere they were tried and resulted in genocide every single time. It's not "going to work this time", it doesn't work.

Yes these were horrendous tragedies and point to the pitfalls of strongly centralized state socialism.

If you consider famines and massacres being proof of an economic system being untenable you must really hate capitalism then:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengal_famine_of_1943

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_famine_of_1928

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_famine_of_1942

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_(Ireland)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_war_crimes

 

[scroeffie1984]

#SAVETHEKIDS

 

[Foxi4]

The World Bank statistic you referenced about people being lifted out of poverty is largely because of China. Do you want to walk that back? Do you disagree with World Bank?

I'm adding context to it. It's hard to be poor when you're dead.

Yes these were horrendous tragedies and point to the pitfalls of strongly centralized state socialism.

If you consider famines and massacres being proof of an economic system being untenable you must really hate capitalism then:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengal_famine_of_1943

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_famine_of_1928

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_famine_of_1942

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_(Ireland)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_war_crimes

The Bengal famine was caused by the wartime effort and colonialism, not capitalism. I de facto put all the Chinese famines in the bin as well - communists starving is nothing new. The Irish Potato Famine was a natural disaster - capitalism didn't cause it. U.S. war crimes are a nebulous term that means nothing in isolation, I can easily reply with "U.S.S.R. war crimes".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_crimes

Hey, remember when the communists rounded up the Polish intelligencia and clergy, shot everyone in the head and put them in a hole in the ground in the middle of a forest? We remember.

It's funny when you think about it - people from all over the world fought and died to escape or destroy the system you are willingly lining up to participate in.

 

[Whole lotta love]

I'm adding context to it. It's hard to be poor when you're dead.
The Bengal famine was caused by the wartime effort and colonialism, not capitalism. I de facto put all the Chinese famines in the bin as well - communists starving is nothing new. The Irish Potato Famine was a natural disaster - capitalism didn't cause it. U.S. war crimes are a nebulous term that means nothing in isolation, I can easily reply with "U.S.S.R. war crimes".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_crimes

Hey, remember when the communists rounded up the Polish intelligencia and clergy, shot everyone in the head and put them in a hole in the ground in the middle of a forest? We remember.

It's funny when you think about it - people from all over the world fought and died to escape or destroy the system you are willingly lining up to participate in.

British Colonialism was 100% a capitalist endeavor.... Why do you think they setup all those colonies and used their resources to maintain? It made money.

Saying the Bengal Famine was okay because of the war is the exact same argument Stalinists make to brush off the Holodomor. Neo-Nazis make this argument to justify many of the deaths in German concentration camps as well. In all these instances it is completely ahistorical.

 

[Foxi4]

British Colonialism was 100% a capitalist endeavor.... Why do you think they setup all those colonies and used their resources to maintain? It made money.

Saying the Bengal Famine was okay because of the war is the exact same argument Stalinists make to brush off the Holodomor. Neo-Nazis make this argument to justify many of the deaths in German concentration camps as well. In all these instances it is completely ahistorical.

Thankfully you're still young, you'll grow wiser with age. Hopefully sooner rather than later.

 

[Whole lotta love]

Thankfully you're still young, you'll grow wiser with age. Hopefully sooner rather than later.

This not an argument.

 

[gregory-samba]

This not an argument.

Nope, just facts of life.

 

[Whole lotta love]

Nope, just facts of life.

Ah yes, there are no old socialists. Just a simple fact of life.

 

[IncredulousP]

Thankfully you're still young, you'll grow wiser with age. Hopefully sooner rather than later.

What a lazy, desperate cheap shot from someone that knows they have no counter to an argument. Just accept that not only could you be wrong, but that you would be more wise to accept it.