Gaming on a CRT, is it worth it?

Is it worth having a CRT around?

  • Yes

    Votes: 45 64.3%
  • No

    Votes: 25 35.7%

  • Total voters
    70

Engezerstorung

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Shady Guy Jose

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also, without debating of quality and image, one of the advantage of having a CRT screen is to be able to play with the games using guns (like the ps1 one), because their technologie is basically using a specificity of how CRT work

but i heard there is some kind of accessories to put over non crt screen nowadays

( https://www.howtogeek.com/181303/ht...per-worked-and-why-it-doesnt-work-on-new-tvs/ )
Those are the "light guns" that were being discussed here a while earlier
 
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A 14 inch is pretty small at least for me. I would say 20 inch and up is better. But 14 inch is a lot less heavy and easier to move around. Smaller screen sizes do have a sharper picture, it follows the same principle of flat panel pixel per inch, the SD image is less blown up to a bigger size and therefore sharper.

Sony Trinitrons are the best of CRT tech. They have an Apature Grill which gives a better brighter picture then other non Sony sets. Non Sony sets sometimes use a Shadow Mask which isn't as good as the Apature Grill, at least for the early ones. In the 90's though Shadow Mask technology became very good and would say those sets are pretty good, debatable though as some still prefer Sony sets.

If you want it for classic gaming and want CRT tech then go for it. But there is a few things you must learn about a CRT and maintenance to get it at peak performance and get the best out of it.

Also a concern is the condition of the tube, a worn out one will give you horrible picture.
I just checked eBay U.K. for Sony Trinitron CRT TVs and damn.. they're holding their value. CRT TVs generally are valueless.
 

SG854

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I just checked eBay U.K. for Sony Trinitron CRT TVs and damn.. they're holding their value. CRT TVs generally are valueless.
They are the BMW of CRT TVs
At least the Professional Sony ones, those would be the BMW's. A lower end PVM are selling in the hundreds, while I see ebay prices for High End PVM's up over $1,000 (U.S. Dollars). Very high prices for a used monitor.

A Consumer Grade Sony is still very good and among the best of CRTs and can be had for cheaper. A Pro grade monitor though will output a better picture, which even the best consumer grade CRT can't match.
 
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subcon959

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I just checked eBay U.K. for Sony Trinitron CRT TVs and damn.. they're holding their value. CRT TVs generally are valueless.
Yeah, and you will notice most of them put "retro gaming" in the title cos they know the current trend. Ebay is not a great place for CRTs anyway as it's easy to hide faults. Much better off checking local listings where you can pop round and check it out and it's often people who are just looking to get rid instead of making profit.
 
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The Real Jdbye

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Unless you mean the fact that the grid isn't exactly square, as has been discussed here as well. That is, indeed, true, but again, most retro games were developed with that in mind, so forcing them to display on fixed square pixel screens will yield results that aren't necessarily better than the natural blurriness of CRTs. In that case, it's a matter of personal preference.
Which part of "light bleed" don't you understand?
It depends to on the CRT you're using. Lower end ones around 300 TV lines blur and smear, less sharp, lots of bleeding. Higher end ones around 800 TV lines are sharper even just as sharp or almost as sharp as an LCD, and don't bleed but this is going into PVM Professional Monitor territory and at this point why not get an LCD, less of a hassle with weight and stuff.

IPS panels with wide viewing angles no longer command really high premium prices. I see quite a few pretty cheap.
Maybe you're right, I've never had the pleasure of using a PVM/BVM so maybe light bleed isn't as bad on higher quality monitors.
But don't all CRTs display 480/576 lines anyway, when fed a 480/576 line signal?
 
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Shady Guy Jose

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Which part of "light bleed" don't you understand?

Maybe you're right, I've never had the pleasure of using a PVM/BVM so maybe light bleed isn't as bad on higher quality monitors.
But don't all CRTs display 480/576 lines anyway, when fed a 480/576 line signal?
Do you mean pixel-by-pixel light bleed, as in adjacent pixels getting slightly mixed/blurred together?

Regarding the second part, I know you weren't replying to me, but no, that isn't the case, unfortunately. They will take that signal and fire that many lines into the screen, but the screen itself may not have that resolution, and will blur adjacent lines together.
 
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The Real Jdbye

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Do you mean pixel-by-pixel light bleed, as in adjacent pixels getting slightly mixed/blurred together?

Regarding the second part, I know you weren't replying to me, but no, that isn't the case, unfortunately. They will take that signal and fire that many lines into the screen, but the screen itself may not have that resolution, and will blur adjacent lines together.
Yes, that's exactly it.

I've always heard that CRTs don't have a native resolution though.
 
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I prefer the look of a sharp CRT, but it isn't practical for me to own one so I use a line doubler.
 

duwen

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For lightgun games - definitely NEED a CRT.
For an authentic vintage arcade cab - again, definitely NEED a CRT.

For everything else, it kind of depends. With the right output everything can look great on modern screens; sharp, pixel perfect, graphics can look amazing (I'd never want to replicate scanlines on a modern screen - that shit's dumb), but if you want authenticity then you're probably best sticking with a CRT for everything up to and including the N64.
From the Dreamcast on everything has a pretty decent method of outputting to a format that can be viewed on modern screens and look fantastic
 

Shady Guy Jose

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Yes, that's exactly it.

I've always heard that CRTs don't have a native resolution though.
Let me answer both points at once, because they're actually related. CRTs indeed don't have a native resolution, because the cathode ray tube operates independently from the number of pixels on the actual screen panel. It just fires 240 lines per frame (240p or 480i is the same in that regard) 60 times per second (288/576/50 in PAL signals). The panel itself has pixels distributed in a non-square grid, as shown in the image below:

kayakfari-photography-pixel-macro-rgb-crt-tv-2.jpg


And come CRTs have more than others. Smaller ones typically have lower maximum resolutions due to a smaller number of physical pixels, while accepting and processing the same signals.

However, lines are, well, lines. This means that a single line will inevitably pass through the middle of two vertically-adjacent physical pixels every other pixel, affecting both. It also follows that every physical pixel will be affected by two different lines passing through, which means it will always be an average of two vertically-adjacent "pixels" in the signal. This is what results in the vertical component of the "light bleed" you describe.
As for the horizontal component, the explanation lies within the fact that these lines are analog, not digital. This means the number of different light/color points per line isn't fixed. The theoretical maximum horizontal points in an analog line is 720 (704 if you account for the usual amount of overscan). Imagining square pixels, this is enough for a 4:3 picture at 480i (640), but not at 576i (768), so PAL signals always have some horizontal blur. 16:9 always use non-square pixels because of this (854 pixels would be needed in 480i, and 1024 in 576i). This gets even more confusing for video game consoles in the 240p era, since some used 256 horizontal pixels (the max possible value of a single byte), while others used 320 for proper square pixels at a 4:3 aspect ratio. Now, this means the number of horizontal pixels on a TV would pretty much never match (or be a multiple of) the number of different color points in the signal it's being fed from a console. As was the case with the vertical mismatch, this leads to a physical/signal pixel number mismatch, which results in blurring. Not from light bleed, but from the need to average out the conflicting signals that each physical pixel is getting.

Furthermore, lower-quality signals from composite or RF cables make the horizontal component even worse due to signal interference from channels other than video.

Now, you may say "that's all true, but the result is that I still see a blur and I don't like it". Well, yes and no.
First, because most games of that era were developed with that blur in mind, and thus need it for some intentional visual effects, like the transparency in the waterfall in Sonic mentioned above. I've seen instances of both stripes and checkerboard patterns for transparency. They sometimes rely on it so much that simply using RGB cables is enough to expose some of these artifacts.
Second, because the blur you get from trying to fit a 256×224 with black bars that make 256×240 signal into a 1920×1080 HDTV, even if we assume 1440×1080 with black bars on the sides, is going to be a hell of a lot worse, both due to bilinear filtering and an uneven multiplication factor. For consoles that use 320×240, a proper upscaler such as the Framemeister or a mod such as the UltraHDMI will properly upscale this to 1280×960 with small black bars top and bottom and big ones left and right for a true 1080p image. But this is an edge case that few people will have access to, and it still won't work if the signal is 256×224, as is the case with the NES and SNES.
So, in conclusion, even if the blur you see actually does happen, it's hard to find an alternative that's not even worse outside of emulation. And even if you do, it may have unintended consequences, such as the Sonic waterfall case (admittedly an edge case, but there are other examples).

Sorry for the huge post :P
 
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SG854

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Which part of "light bleed" don't you understand?

Maybe you're right, I've never had the pleasure of using a PVM/BVM so maybe light bleed isn't as bad on higher quality monitors.
But don't all CRTs display 480/576 lines anyway, when fed a 480/576 line signal?
480i/576i is vertical lines. TV lines measures the Horizontal lines/resolution. The Higher the TV line count the sharper the image. A 240p image on a 800 TV line CRT will look alot sharper then a 240p image on a 300 TV line CRT.

On lower TV line CRT's the Horizontal lines blur together, still getting the same image as a higher tv line display but just not as sharp and defined. This is why Scanline's are thicker on a PVM almost emulator look because of their higher TV lines.

On these high TV line Sony CRT Trinitrons you'll see the words HR in front of it, which stands for High Resolution which is talking about TV lines.
 
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SG854

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Is this where we are supposed to make a list of 90% of the way there/hidden gem type brands, models and the like?
Here's a list. From Sony, Ikegami, Bang and Olufsen, JVC, Toshiba, Mitsubishi, Panasonic, Eizo, Nec, Nokia.... From Pro Monitors, Consumer Sets, PC Displays. Not all the CRTs but a decent list of what they resolutions they support and other information.

https://www.reddit.com/r/crtgaming/wiki/speclist
 
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Shady Guy Jose

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480i/576i is vertical lines. TV lines measures the Horizontal lines/resolution. The Higher the TV line count the sharper the image. A 240p image on a 800 TV line CRT will look alot sharper then a 240p image on a 300 TV line CRT.

On lower TV line CRT's the Horizontal lines blur together, still getting the same image as a higher tv line display but just not as sharp and defined. This is why Scanline's are thicker on a PVM almost emulator look because of their higher TV lines.

On these high TV line Sony CRT Trinitrons you'll see the words HR in front of it, which stands for High Resolution which is talking about TV lines.
Just a small correction there: 480/576 is the vertical resolution, but not the number of vertical lines. It's horizontal lines, in fact. Vertical resolution is measured by the number of horizontal lines and vice-versa (because the number of dots/pixels in a vertical column is the same as the number of horizontal lines in the display). So the number of TV lines measures the number of horizontal lines, but vertical resolution. An 800-line CRT will display thicker scanlines than a 300-line one because only 240 lines will be "lit up" across the display, meaning slightly less than one every 3 lines, while a 300-line CRT would only have 60 blank lines across the whole panel. Horizontal resolution (number of pixels in a line/number of vertical lines or columns) isn't even measured on CRT TVs due to the analog nature of the signal, which makes individual dots/pixels indistinguishable.

EDIT: I looked a bit further into it and some sets do measure maximum horizontal resolution (number of vertical lines) as well.
 
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TunaKetchup

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Yeah, and you will notice most of them put "retro gaming" in the title cos they know the current trend. Ebay is not a great place for CRTs anyway as it's easy to hide faults. Much better off checking local listings where you can pop round and check it out and it's often people who are just looking to get rid instead of making profit.

I got mine off Offerup for $10 USD

Some old lady was selling her CRT

She has no idea and even asked me why the hell I wanted it
 
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SG854

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Just a small correction there: 480/576 is the vertical resolution, but not the number of vertical lines. It's horizontal lines, in fact. Vertical resolution is measured by the number of horizontal lines and vice-versa (because the number of dots/pixels in a vertical column is the same as the number of horizontal lines in the display). So the number of TV lines measures the number of horizontal lines, but vertical resolution. An 800-line CRT will display thicker scanlines than a 300-line one because only 240 lines will be "lit up" across the display, meaning slightly less than one every 3 lines, while a 300-line CRT would only have 60 blank lines across the whole panel. Horizontal resolution (number of pixels in a line/number of vertical lines or columns) isn't even measured on CRT TVs due to the analog nature of the signal, which makes individual dots/pixels indistinguishable.

EDIT: I looked a bit further into it and some sets do measure maximum horizontal resolution (number of vertical lines) as well.
TV lines measures the Horizontal Resolution not the vertical. It's based on the number of Black and White Vertical Lines. An 800 TV line CRT has 400 White Lines and 400 Black lines. The more vertical lines that are stacked side by side from left to right the more resolution and detail it can resolve horizontally. This is why when you look at the HR label on the front of a PVM it shows vertical lines. And the HR symbol is talking about TV lines.

I mean to say number of lines stacked vertically. Vertical Resolution is measured by the number of Scanning Lines, the 480, from 640x480 resolution. There are 480 horizontal scanning lines stacked on top of each other vertically from top to bottom and is the measured vertical resolution.

So Anolouge Resolution is determined by number of TV lines and scanning lines. In digital resolution is determined by total number of pixels. So in Anolouge world a 800 TV line Display means you have a resolution of 800x480.

Everything I read counts TV lines as Horizontal resolution.
https://www.tested.com/tech/gaming/456719-best-crt-retr
 
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SG854

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EDIT: I looked a bit further into it and some sets do measure maximum horizontal resolution (number of vertical lines) as well.
You can Measure Horizontal and Vertical Resolution using a test pattern like this.

https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:EIA_Resolution_Chart_1956.svg

The part in the middle that says 200, 300, 400, 500, 800 is how you measure TV lines. The point at which the black lines converge to a single line is the number of TV lines your display has, and the resolution and fine detail it can resolve. So if they converge at the 300 mark then your display supports 300 TV lines. If they converge at the 600 mark then it's a 600 line display.
 
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