?
  1. Yes

    44 vote(s)
    64.7%
  2. No

    24 vote(s)
    35.3%
  1. sarkwalvein

    sarkwalvein There's hope for a Xenosaga port.
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    Not really, CRTs work in a way pseudo-analog masked fashion.
    They don't really have a native resolution.
    And anyway, the "480" lines from NTSC (the raster) is actually related to vertical resolution of the signal, not of the CRT, a continuous horizontal line is drawn 480 times (in two separate 240 lines interleaves) to produce a picture.

    Regarding the phosphorous cells in the screen, they are not pixels, they are just masked groups of red/green/blue, each one of those masked groups can be exited in many different points with different intensities, each one of them contains as many pixels as you would like (as long as you can really focus the ray good enough along the cell).

    I think I can find you a good youtube video that could explain that better than me.

    PS:


    I think the explanation is not superclear there, but if you pay attention and try to really understand what he is trying to explain you will get it. The fact that there's video and pictures to illustrate it makes it also easier to understand.
     
    Last edited by sarkwalvein, Feb 18, 2020
  2. SG854

    OP SG854 If It Bleeds, We Can Kill It
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    I know CRTs aren't pixels, the resolution is limited by the khz the Display supports. 15khz display can do 480i but not 720p. Horizontal resolution the Tube supports can be measured with a test pattern. And the vertical resolution of the signal can be measured with the test pattern also.

    You mean a video like this. It's an awesome video and show with really clear examples how CRT's work. I've seen the video you linked before.



    — Posts automatically merged - Please don't double post! —

    @sarkwalvein A Horizontal resolution is limited on a CRT though which is measured by TV lines. Look at a 480i image on a Cheapo consumer set and look at one on a Pro monitor (if you can find one) and you'll notice a difference in sharpness.

    A benefit of CRT is that they support multiple resolutions natively with no need for upscaling.
     
    Last edited by SG854, Feb 18, 2020
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  3. sarkwalvein

    sarkwalvein There's hope for a Xenosaga port.
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    Yes, kind of, and in many ways... but not sure if I would call it resolution.
    In the one hand, depending how well the ray can be focused the image will be sharper or blurrier.
    In the other hand, depending how much the mask blocks the ray you will lose whole parts of the image behind the mask, you still got variation of brightness inside a same phosphorous group, but then they are totally blocked for some time, and then again, this is quite apparent in the small portable CRT from the first video.
     
  4. SG854

    OP SG854 If It Bleeds, We Can Kill It
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    A Sony PVM doesn't use a Shadow Mask, it uses an Apature Grill, more of the electron beam can pass through. Resolution is how much picture information it can resolve. Everything you read about the topic refers to it as resolution.

    And adjusting the focus of a electron gun isn't enough to make it sharper. I've seen a lower TV line PVM, and a Higher Line PVM, as well as a cheapo consumer set all adjusted to get the best focus performance and you still cant make a cheapo consumer set look as sharp as a high end PVM. There's visible difference even on mid range PVM's and high end PVM's even though they both use the same aperture grill technology.
     
    Last edited by SG854, Feb 18, 2020
  5. SG854

    OP SG854 If It Bleeds, We Can Kill It
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    This thread goes into alot more technical detail.
    What determines the horizontal resolution is the bandwidth and signal fidelity of the tuner, filters, and amplifiers. Even though they say it doesn't have resolution per se they still refer to it as resolution in their following examples, since it's much easier to convey that way.

    https://www.eevblog.com/forum/proje...zontal-and-vertical-resolution-of-a-crt-tube/


    Honestly CRT's are a pain compared to Digital Displays. They are Analogue so they need so many physical components just to get the picture to look good enough, to resize it, getting geometry good. They are very flickery displaying interlaced signals. They need a warm up time of at least 30 min before they can be worked on so that colors can settle in, flat panels warm up instantly. Need to be calibrated constantly because the colors drift, high end monitors have to incorporate components to reduce this somewhat. Even the Earths magnetic field can mess with the picture so they need to be degaussed regularly. I can see why they were replaced with flat panel PVMs, less of a hassle, and they outperform CRTs by supporting 4k, wider color gamuts, and HDR.
     
    Last edited by SG854, Feb 18, 2020
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  6. ourobus

    ourobus Newbie
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    As someone who owns and actively uses both a PVM-20M4U and a PVM-20L5 with SCART or Component for all my retro consoles, I definitely think CRTs are worth it, at least if you can get something in the 800-1000TVL range with RGB support. I also have a Framemeister that I've used on my HDTV and it doesn't even compare to using RGB on a either of my PVMs. In my opinion, it's really one of those things you'd have to see in person to really choose if it's worth it or not to you. I also owned a KV-27FS100L consumer Trinitron at one point that I used a SCART to Component transcoder and/or Component for and that doesn't even really compare to the higher linecount PVMs and BVMs in terms of sharpness and/or colordepth. For the record, I also have a friend that owns a BVM-D24 and that thing is even nicer visually speaking, those go for almost $3,000 at this point, whereas monitors like what I own are still expensive, albeit cheaper. A 20M4U goes for around $800 at this point and for a 20L5 you'll probably be looking at over $1,000.
     
    Last edited by ourobus, Feb 18, 2020
  7. SG854

    OP SG854 If It Bleeds, We Can Kill It
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    I have the BVM D20F1U considered the best 4:3 CRT ever made. Picture quality wise the PVM 20L5 and the BVM D20F1U are about the same, but the BVM has more features.

    It is a sight to be hold looking at the picture on one of these. In terms of clarity, detail and colors.

    $3,000 is alot, but a small fraction of what they originally cost. There is a video by retrotech and price for the BVM D20F1U was around $13,000. The D24E1WU was $24,000. And the D32E1WU was $39,000 when they sold New in 2000's.

     
    Last edited by SG854, Feb 18, 2020
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  8. Shady Guy Jose

    Shady Guy Jose GBAtemp Fan
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    I see now it's common practice, and it's obviously doable by testing with examples such as that svg picture you sent me in the second post. But that's still different from actually measuring horizontal resolution, which is not really possible due to the analog nature of the signal. That's why you'll see round hundreds for the values, it's not that accurate of a process (and it's still limited by the signal). But I stand corrected anyway regarding the terminology, they do seem to refer mostly to horizontal resolution when they say "TV lines".
     
  9. isoboy

    isoboy GBAtemp Advanced Fan
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    Emulators and/or mister fpga and filters are more than good enough.
     
  10. ourobus

    ourobus Newbie
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    This is all correct, not bad on getting a BVM-D20 hopefully you got lucky like me and got in on buying before the prices inflated horribly (when I bought mine 20M4Us were going for around $400 and 20L5s were around $800). I actually met Steve btw, the dude from Retro Tech, really cool guy. He in person repaired a PVM-14L5 for the same buddy I mentioned that has the BVM-D24.
     
    Last edited by ourobus, Feb 18, 2020
  11. SG854

    OP SG854 If It Bleeds, We Can Kill It
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    That's cool you met Steve, been watching his videos for a while. Ya prices have gone up as a bunch of gamers been snatching them up and are becoming harder to find.

    Quality wise 20L5 and D20 uses the same picture tube. The 800 to 900 line difference is all marketing by Sony to stretch the truth. They both have the same number of TV lines. That's why people don't see a big difference between the two. Theres a retro Retro RGB Video that talks about this. Kind of like super high contrast ratios TV manufacturers over inflate today. There is a clear difference though between the 800 and 600 line PVMs since they use a different tube, 800 being sharper. The D20 though has more features and better convergence adjustment then the L5. Its basically the premium of the 20L5 but picture quality wise they are the same. They are both the best 4:3 CRTs ever made.
     
    Last edited by SG854, Feb 18, 2020
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  12. SG854

    OP SG854 If It Bleeds, We Can Kill It
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    I voted yes

    For a good quality CRT. If it's a CRT of lower quality then no. I've been spoiled by Pro Monitors. After using CRT's coming from an LCD all of the weaknesses of a CRT that you don't worry about with an LCD become apparent. Blooming, Convergence, Magnets (In External Speakers), ect.

    Pro Monitors corrects for all these weaknesses. And Composite video is horrible. I do not care if games were designed with composite and CRT weaknesses in mind to create dithering or transparency. The cleaner image is a much better experience for me.

    A really good Flat Panel and upscaler can get the job done really well. And is an excellent option for getting games to look their best. But I still prefer a high quality CRT.

    @ourobus
    I found the video, a Retired Sony Tech that know these things inside out talks about it at around 43:06. For the 20 inch Tubes, The PVM 20M4, PVM 20L5, BVM 20F1, BVM 20E1, BVM D20F1, BVM A20F1. They all use the same picture tube, and you can swap them out for one another, and you won't notice a difference in picture. And for the BVM 20E1 it never had 1,000 TV lines. That's just advertising by Sony.

    The BVM D32 is the only CRT that I know of that can have perfect convergence. You can adjust it dot by dot and get it perfect.

    It also has a White Uniformity Board and Deflection Board that you can use to adjust the white linearity and beam landing zone by zone to correct for any color shift that happens at different parts of the screen that is caused by the Earths Magnetic field, depending on which direction the monitor is facing, North, West, East or South.

    From the High Quality SMPTE C Phosphors, to not blooming and distorting when displaying a bright scene, and all the adjustments you can make to correct for CRT's weaknesses these pro monitors are an amazing piece of engineered technology. I'm just so spoiled by them I can't go back to a consumer set.
     
    Last edited by SG854, Feb 20, 2020
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  13. WarioWaffles

    WarioWaffles Advanced Member
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    It felt worth it on my old CRT, made the mistake of storing it when I saw a bigger one but the damn thing has horrible colors I think something's gone bad cuz changing the settings does little to help. Now the damn paperweight just sits there since I lack the motivation to swap the monstrosity.
     
  14. ourobus

    ourobus Newbie
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    @SG854
    Interesting, sucks to know that they embellished the truth a tad about the tv lines on some of the higher-end monitors. I have heard that the D32 has some really cool specific features that I think only ever made it into some of the A series BVMs other than it. But the A series monitors don't have native SCART inputs, which is a big negative. Other than the feature you mentioned, I heard that on the D32 and the A series BVMs you can see the overall use hours and tube use hours separately.
     
    Last edited by ourobus, Feb 20, 2020
  15. horokeusama

    horokeusama GBAtemp Fan
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    Well, the IDEAL solution for me right now would be to use a framemeister or a OSSC solution, but they're really expensive to the point it's just easier to have a small 14'' CRT on my desk and play old games on it.
     
  16. SG854

    OP SG854 If It Bleeds, We Can Kill It
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    The input cards on the A series are extremely rare, I heard estimates of about 500 made. They rarely pop up and when they do the sell for thousands. It's probably better to swap out the tube from the A series into a D series, since those cards for that series are more readily available and alot cheaper around $150.

    The BVMs have a stand by mode, mostly because it takes a CRT about 30 min to warm up to reach peak color performance. So instead of turning it off you put it in stand by when not using it, and take it out of stand by when using it and dont have to wait for it to warm up since it's already warmed up, and it'll be ready to go right away. So it logs crt use hours and time on hours separate.
     
    Last edited by SG854, Feb 20, 2020
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  17. playstays_shun

    playstays_shun GBAtemp Regular
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    I recently got a 14" Sony PVM, not RGB-able out of the box but has two s-video inputs.

    Not regretting it at all, didn't want to go much bigger for convenience reasons and didn't spend a ton nor did I want to to get started down this rabbit hole

    I think its good to have options for the old stuff. Its a 500 TVL tube, and looks great with my non-rgb 64

    I have a retrotink that has no lag at that part in the chain, but truly no latency from the tv processing the signal is a sight to behold in some situations

    I will use it with my Saturn and PS2 as well and maybe my GC sometimes which has been sitting around for a while
     
    Last edited by playstays_shun, Mar 5, 2020
  18. supernintendo128

    supernintendo128 Advanced Member
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    If you can find a cheap one at a flea market and have the space for one, go right ahead.
     
  19. Sizednochi

    Sizednochi GBAtemp Advanced Fan
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    I voted yes, but even for my old consoles I don't have CRTs anymore. I recognize they are awesome though. I just don't have the space. I use a Dell 2007FPB Monitor with S-video cables.
     
  20. SG854

    OP SG854 If It Bleeds, We Can Kill It
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    S-Video still looks great on a PVM. At 500 lines it's still better then many consumer sets minus the High End Consumer CRT TV's with Component.

    That rabbit hole is deep and I think it's not worth getting a high end pro monitor unless you have lots of cash. Most people will be very satisfied with a Mid Range PVM or a high quality low latency upscaler with a low input lag flat panel. At the prices high end pro crt monitors are selling for you can instead get a high end flat panel tv that doesn't suffer from the flat low contrast look lower end LCD's have and also get 4k with excellent hdr. And at 4k is where Scanlines filters start to look really good.
     
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