13 Russians, 3 businesses indicted by Mueller/Rosenstein in connection to Trump

[AkikoKumagara]

At least this way we get tons of extra money for everyone.

We've already tried the trickle down theory.

Spoiler

It doesn't work.

 

[TotalInsanity4]

We've already tried the trickle down theory.

Spoiler

It doesn't work.

And yeah, it's funny how he responded to a question of "how can this be interpreted in any way other than an attempt to re-implement trickle-down theory" with an example of trickle-down theory

 

[Deleted User]

You do realize that between the years of 1933 to 1987, the top federal income tax tier never dipped below 50%, right? And that the majority of the time it was above 80%? And yet that was largely considered to be the golden age of American infrastructure, with booming industry? Not to mention that in that time, the difference between the upper and lower class was virtually the lowest it's ever been in recent history?

I mean, this is now SO far off topic, but if you're going to bring stuff up just because you think you can use it to justify the lies of a oligarchical politician you think is leading you to revolution, please at least try to use history as a stepping-off point for your arguments

First of all, what's wrong with oligarchy? God knows this country would fall apart in days if we shifted to a true democracy.

Second of all, keep it civil. If you don't want to argue with me, then say so.

Snidely insulting conservatives and trump supporters like this gets us nowhere. All it does is contribute to the ever-widening gap between the parties. So don't do it.

 

[TotalInsanity4]

God knows this country would fall apart in days if we shifted to a true democracy.

Bish wha?

Second of all, keep it civil. If you don't want to argue with me, then say so.

It's not that I don't want to argue with you, it's that I'd rather you stick to the topic of the thread while doing so. I know that I got pulled to the side too, but this thread is about evidence of ties to Russia with President Trump, not whether or not we should support him based on policy. There are points where those topics intersect, but economic policy (unless, of course, it's lifting sanctions on Russia) is not one of those

Snidely insulting conservatives and trump supporters like this gets us nowhere. All it does is contribute to the ever-widening gap between the parties. So don't do it.

I think you'll find I'm a snide person whenever I get worked up, no matter who's on the receiving end, but I wasn't even looking to insult you (let alone the entire conservative party) in that case; I was legitimately telling you to actually do some historical research before just blindly following whoever's currently heading your party

Now, on the subject of "insulting conservatives and trump supports," I could easily launch into a tangent on how the "trump Party" and the "Conservative Party" are now two completely distinct entities, but I won't. Because again, off topic.

 

[Deleted User]

Bish wha?

The vast majority of voters on both sides are only voting because "REPUBLICANS/DEMOCRATS ARE PURE EVIL!!!!", not because they actually thought out their own personal beliefs. I guarantee you, if you dropped the usual democrat and a usual republican into the middle of nowhere, they would both be trying to kill each other in under a week

It's not that I don't want to argue with you, it's that I'd rather you stick to the topic of the thread while doing so. I know that I got pulled to the side too, but this thread is about evidence of ties to Russia with President Trump, not whether or not we should support him based on policy. There are points where those topics intersect, but economic policy (unless, of course, it's lifting sanctions on Russia) is not one of those

If you want to move this discussion elsewhere, I'd be willing to open it on another thread

I think you'll find I'm a snide person whenever I get worked up, no matter who's on the receiving end, but I wasn't even looking to insult you (let alone the entire conservative party) in that case; I was legitimately telling you to actually do some historical research before just blindly following whoever's currently heading your party

Whatever the case, you came off as very condescending. I hate it when I'm in a debate and it becomes a game of 'WHO CAN MAKE MORE AD HOMINEMS!!!?!?

Now, on the subject of "insulting conservatives and trump supports," I could easily launch into a tangent on how the "trump Party" and the "Conservative Party" are now two completely distinct entities, but I won't. Because again, off topic.

Can't argue with you there. If 50% of conservatives are rabid, 99% of trumpians(?) should be locked up at the nearest mental hospital.

The overall point I was trying to make was that while trump isn't any George Washington, he's definitely not satan incarnate. At the very least he's (debatedly) competent, and he's (probably) not going to crash the country into the ground. Better then I can say for some presidents.

 

[TotalInsanity4]

If you want to move this discussion elsewhere, I'd be willing to open it on another thread

Yeah sure, I'd be down. Just know it will go downhill fast depending on what it's titled

And also, because I'm lazy, wouldja mind pasting the other points of your post in the thread you'd create?

 

[Deleted User]

Yeah sure, I'd be down. Just know it will go downhill fast depending on what it's titled

And also, because I'm lazy, wouldja mind pasting the other points of your post in the thread you'd create?

Which post?

 

[TotalInsanity4]

Which post?

The one that the segment I quoted came from. Just so the conversation can continue

Unless there's more you wanted to add as a starting point

 

[granville]

Trickle down economics is legitimately one of the dumbest economic policies that has ever existed. At least for all of the average middle or low income Americans who fell for it and thought it would help them. For those in on the hustle of course, trickle down economics accomplished exactly what it's designers intended. Try to make the idea of giving big business and corporations effectively unlimited power seem attractive to middle and lower income brackets. And trick them into handing over their tax money to these entities. The premise is that one day, workers would be rewarded on their investment and invited into the rich people's club too. When in reality they are sucked dry and left to rot.

And make no mistake, that WAS always the plan. The people who came up with trickle down economics knew exactly what they were doing. From the very beginning it was never intended or designed be a sustainable long term economic policy, even though that WAS the lie they told to try to sell it to the general public. It was a short term scam by the wealthy and their political representatives to further increase their spoils. It invites the fox into the hen house with a small notice politely asking the fox not to eat the chickens (and zero consequences for doing it). Trickle down economics sounded stupid even on paper, and unsurprisingly turned out to be just as foolish and dangerous when we tried it out for real.

It is utterly absurd to expect businesses and their executives (at least the overwhelming majority) to treat and pay their workforces fairly without strict rules and regulations in place to ensure they do. Lawlessness and anarchy doesn't work for ANY other aspect of society, and the business world is provably no different when allowed to exist unchecked. They desperately WANT to be let off the leash so they can go wild. Allowing this inevitable leads to oligarcy-kleptocracy (which is essentially what America is today, and fucking no that isn't a good thing), and economic ruin for all but the elite few who are lucky to be in on the scam.

The fact that anyone ever fell for this "economic policy" is hilarious, the fact that anyone today still would (even after all of its demonstrated failures) is just fucking sad...

 

[KingVamp]

I almost feel like their should be a law for banning trickle down economics.

 

[Deleted User]

It is utterly absurd to expect businesses and their executives (at least the overwhelming majority) to treat and pay their workforces fairly without strict rules and regulations in place to ensure they do. Lawlessness and anarchy doesn't work for ANY other aspect of society, and the business world is provably no different when allowed to exist unchecked. They desperately WANT to be let off the leash so they can go wild. Allowing this inevitable leads to oligarcy-kleptocracy (which is essentially what America is today, and fucking no that isn't a good thing), and economic ruin for all but the elite few who are lucky to be in on the scam.

First of all, if you over regulate, then they'll just grab their workforce from a developing country. Now we've gone from workers being paid unfairly, to not being paid at all. Yay.

Second of all, they wouldn't have had such low wages if they had competition. The reason big companies like Amazon, Microsoft, etc. can get away with the stuff they do is because the workers don't have any easy alternative. If the tax cuts stay low, I guarantee you there will be plenty of alternatives with far better benefits. Amazon will have to step up its game if it want to avoid their workers getting taken.

The fact that anyone ever fell for this "economic policy" is hilarious, the fact that anyone today still would (even after all of its demonstrated failures) is just fucking sad...

Reagan disagrees with you.

 

[granville]

Ronald Reagan (and his administration) was a massive corporate shill, so it's not a surprise that his policies caused big business to grow. But his rule was largely undone by the economic collapse of 1987. Deregulation occurring at the time certainly had somewhat of a hand in this. This economic downturn continued during the rest of his presidency, and another one hit in the middle of HW Bush's admin as well.

Deregulation often provides the appearance of short term gains in certain markets. For example, the Glass-Steagall act was gutted in 1999, which created a pretty immediate and massive boost to the housing market for the next 6 years. Too massive, Glass-Steagall was a piece of regulation that was passed following the market crash of 1929 to prevent such a collapse occurring again. In the early-mid 2000s (in addition to several other recessions both before and after 9/11), the housing market grew out of control and popped, triggering the Great Recession. Made all the worse by increasing deregulation and tax cuts for the rich under the Bush Jr admin. The housing market was in anarchy, bankers had literally been playing roulette with the mortgage industry. And we saw the consequences.

The Obama administration implemented some new rules and regulations to try to reform the industry, including the Dodd-Frank Act and cracking down on subprime lending (though the gamblers in the banking industry should have been prosecuted, and the big banks should not have been allowed to merge and become even larger). The Trump admin has been routinely dismantling many of these regulations out of spite (including Dodd Frank). We're now in another bubble (housing prices are quickly beginning to creep up again). The dangerous "subprime mortgage" is even making a comeback, renamed to "non-prime".

Governments can stop companies from moving overseas if they want. Provided its politicians aren't bought and paid for by corporate lobbyists. I'm not going to throw blame around for this one, most Democrats and Republicans in the presidential admin as well as congress are servants of corporate money. But that needs to change. There's largely no interest in the Republican party, but there is a rapidly growing faction of liberals who are demanding reform from the Democrats.

 

[Deleted User]

Ronald Reagan (and his administration) was a massive corporate shill, so it's not a surprise that his policies caused big business to grow. But his rule was largely undone by the economic collapse of 1987. Deregulation occurring at the time certainly had somewhat of a hand in this. This economic downturn continued during the rest of his presidency, and another one hit in the middle of HW Bush's admin as well.

Deregulation often provides the appearance of short term gains in certain markets. For example, the Glass-Steagall act was gutted in 1999, which created a pretty immediate and massive boost to the housing market for the next 6 years. Too massive, Glass-Steagall was a piece of regulation that was passed following the market crash of 1929 to prevent such a collapse occurring again. In the early-mid 2000s (in addition to several other recessions both before and after 9/11), the housing market grew out of control and popped, triggering the Great Recession. Made all the worse by increasing deregulation and tax cuts for the rich under the Bush Jr admin. The housing market was in anarchy, bankers had literally been playing roulette with the mortgage industry. And we saw the consequences.

The Obama administration implemented some new rules and regulations to try to reform the industry, including the Dodd-Frank Act and cracking down on subprime lending (though the gamblers in the banking industry should have been prosecuted, and the big banks should not have been allowed to merge and become even larger). The Trump admin has been routinely dismantling many of these regulations out of spite (including Dodd Frank). We're now in another bubble (housing prices are quickly beginning to creep up again). The dangerous "subprime mortgage" is even making a comeback, renamed to "non-prime".

Governments can stop companies from moving overseas if they want. Provided its politicians aren't bought and paid for by corporate lobbyists. I'm not going to throw blame around for this one, most Democrats and Republicans in the presidential admin as well as congress are servants of corporate money. But that needs to change. There's largely no interest in the Republican party, but there is a rapidly growing faction of liberals who are demanding reform from the Democrats.

We have a recession at least once per decade. You can't put the blame on one specific policy or method. There are a ton of external factors outside the country, and outside our control.

Also, side note here, but the reason the banks went out of control wasn't due to conservative or progressive policy. It was crony capitalism. The banks had a ton of control over the government at that point, so they knew they could do whatever they want and just get government handouts.

 

[Xzi]

Another flips after a little Mueller Time™, it's Paul Manafort with a cooperative plea deal:

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/ten...ort-special-counsel-sources/story?id=57809113

That being the case, more potential charges are incoming, hopefully it doesn't take Mueller's team that long to cross-reference Manafort's testimony with Cohen and other sources. Who knows if they'll want to release any statement before mid-terms.

 

[Xzi]

Ok, so the update is that we aren't sure whether he's cooperating or not, but Manafort has agreed to plead guilty to his charges:

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/09/14/ex-...deal-with-special-counsel-robert-mueller.html

This also results in Manafort forfeiting $46 million, meaning the Mueller investigation has now paid for itself and then some.

Edit: just as I was posting this it was confirmed that the plea deal includes cooperation:

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/manafort-cooperating-special-counsel

 

[KingVamp]

So, basically Mueller is more beneficial to us than the tax cuts.

 

[brickmii82]

Ronald Reagan (and his administration) was a massive corporate shill, so it's not a surprise that his policies caused big business to grow. But his rule was largely undone by the economic collapse of 1987. Deregulation occurring at the time certainly had somewhat of a hand in this. This economic downturn continued during the rest of his presidency, and another one hit in the middle of HW Bush's admin as well.

Deregulation often provides the appearance of short term gains in certain markets. For example, the Glass-Steagall act was gutted in 1999, which created a pretty immediate and massive boost to the housing market for the next 6 years. Too massive, Glass-Steagall was a piece of regulation that was passed following the market crash of 1929 to prevent such a collapse occurring again. In the early-mid 2000s (in addition to several other recessions both before and after 9/11), the housing market grew out of control and popped, triggering the Great Recession. Made all the worse by increasing deregulation and tax cuts for the rich under the Bush Jr admin. The housing market was in anarchy, bankers had literally been playing roulette with the mortgage industry. And we saw the consequences.

The Obama administration implemented some new rules and regulations to try to reform the industry, including the Dodd-Frank Act and cracking down on subprime lending (though the gamblers in the banking industry should have been prosecuted, and the big banks should not have been allowed to merge and become even larger). The Trump admin has been routinely dismantling many of these regulations out of spite (including Dodd Frank). We're now in another bubble (housing prices are quickly beginning to creep up again). The dangerous "subprime mortgage" is even making a comeback, renamed to "non-prime".

Governments can stop companies from moving overseas if they want. Provided its politicians aren't bought and paid for by corporate lobbyists. I'm not going to throw blame around for this one, most Democrats and Republicans in the presidential admin as well as congress are servants of corporate money. But that needs to change. There's largely no interest in the Republican party, but there is a rapidly growing faction of liberals who are demanding reform from the Democrats.

Not only are the meager regulations Dodd-Frank instituted being rolled back, commercial and investment banks can still operate as a singular entity, rating agencies still have hardly any oversight, and synthetic CDO's which destroyed trillions due to packaged junk MBA's were re-labeled Bespoke Tranche Opportunities and slapped right back into the market. How is this shit not outlawed now? Glass-Steagal should've been re-instituted imo. But I do find it ironic that it was gutted under Clinton. The rollbacks actually started under Nixon though.

 

[granville]

Not only are the meager regulations Dodd-Frank instituted being rolled back, commercial and investment banks can still operate as a singular entity, rating agencies still have hardly any oversight, and synthetic CDO's which destroyed trillions due to packaged junk MBA's were re-labeled Bespoke Tranche Opportunities and slapped right back into the market. How is this shit not outlawed now? Glass-Steagal should've been re-instituted imo. But I do find it ironic that it was gutted under Clinton. The rollbacks actually started under Nixon though.

The entire CDO debacle was horrifying. Much of the public is still ignorant on how they worked due to the intentionally convoluted word salad behind it. But it's similar in concept to stock derivatives. A literal gambling racket (built on an already collapsing foundation) set up by a bunch of rich narcissistic jackoffs.

One expects this sort of behavior to be allowed and encouraged from Republicans (who had a majority in Congress when Glass Steagall was gutted). But the Clinton and Obama administrations have been weak on punishing this behavior too. In some ways they have enabled and encouraged it. Bill Clinton in 2015 defended Glass Steagall being repealed and claimed it had nothing to do with the housing crash (complete bullshit). The bank bailouts continued even when Obama took office. No one was jailed. And only moderate new regulations were put into place, which are now effectively gone thanks to the Trump admin. Sub prime mortgages are now coming back (now called "nonprime"), and we're seeing a repeat of history.

As you said, this deregulation has been going on for decades. Going back at least as far as Nixon. But each administration following, D or R, has escalated it to varying degrees. There unfortunately aren't really many true liberal options in American politics. Many Democrats still lean at least somewhat right economically speaking. There's an attempt to reform the party with pressure from Bernie Sanders and other progressive candidates, but it remains to be seen if they will have any substantive success.

 

[SG854]

Ronald Reagan (and his administration) was a massive corporate shill, so it's not a surprise that his policies caused big business to grow. But his rule was largely undone by the economic collapse of 1987. Deregulation occurring at the time certainly had somewhat of a hand in this. This economic downturn continued during the rest of his presidency, and another one hit in the middle of HW Bush's admin as well.

Deregulation often provides the appearance of short term gains in certain markets. For example, the Glass-Steagall act was gutted in 1999, which created a pretty immediate and massive boost to the housing market for the next 6 years. Too massive, Glass-Steagall was a piece of regulation that was passed following the market crash of 1929 to prevent such a collapse occurring again. In the early-mid 2000s (in addition to several other recessions both before and after 9/11), the housing market grew out of control and popped, triggering the Great Recession. Made all the worse by increasing deregulation and tax cuts for the rich under the Bush Jr admin. The housing market was in anarchy, bankers had literally been playing roulette with the mortgage industry. And we saw the consequences.

The Obama administration implemented some new rules and regulations to try to reform the industry, including the Dodd-Frank Act and cracking down on subprime lending (though the gamblers in the banking industry should have been prosecuted, and the big banks should not have been allowed to merge and become even larger). The Trump admin has been routinely dismantling many of these regulations out of spite (including Dodd Frank). We're now in another bubble (housing prices are quickly beginning to creep up again). The dangerous "subprime mortgage" is even making a comeback, renamed to "non-prime".

Governments can stop companies from moving overseas if they want. Provided its politicians aren't bought and paid for by corporate lobbyists. I'm not going to throw blame around for this one, most Democrats and Republicans in the presidential admin as well as congress are servants of corporate money. But that needs to change. There's largely no interest in the Republican party, but there is a rapidly growing faction of liberals who are demanding reform from the Democrats.

Trickle Down Economics theory does not exist in the economic world, its a made up straw man. Tax cuts the many times its been tried has always increased tax revenue. They collected more money in taxes. Ronald Reagan overspend. It doesn't matter how much more money you bring in, if you spend it all and then some then you'll have a problem.

The Housing Boom and Bust was government pushed at the core. Many people were to blame for it happening. The Borrowers, lenders, government and financial markets. They were all players. But mostly can be tracked to government at the start that pushed for more housing to people that couldn't afford it.

Regulation is what causes prices to rise. An example is housing prices that rose in San Francisco, due to land restrictions placed to save the "environment" they ended up creating artificial scarcity. When you have a growing population and unable to build new houses from restrictions it causes prices to rise. You end up paying more for the land then the actual house. That same house in Houston or Dallas would be a lot cheaper since they have no land restriction placed by tree huggers. High Housing prices is not the fault of greedy private markets but the fault of government regulation coming in the picture. This was a contributing factor to the housing boom and bust.

There was no Great Depression until Government started to intervene in the economy. After the stock market crashed in 1929 unemployment shot to 9% for one month. Then unemployment dropped to 6.3% in June 1930. The economy was already recovering on its own. Then the Smoot-Hawley Tariff Bill came in the picture that was pushed by politicians. More then a thousand economists begged for government not to push for this bill. But they ignored and did it anyway to try to fix things. Then in 6 months unemployment hit the double digits and topped 20% and stayed there for 35 months. It all wasn't just the Smoot-Hawley tariffs either, FDR came in to also try to fix things, he passed the national recovery act, agriculture adjustment act, the Wagner act and still unemployment didn't drop. Roosevelt's New Deal actually prolonged the Great Depression.

For 150 years since the creation of this country the government did nothing and economy recovery on its own every time. It wasn't until government started to meddle into things that made the economy worse off and we had the worse economic crisis in America.

 

[brickmii82]

Trickle Down Economics theory does not exist in the economic world, its a made up straw man. Tax cuts the many times its been tried has always increased tax revenue. They collected more money in taxes. Ronald Reagan overspend. It doesn't matter how much more money you bring in, if you spend it all and then some then you'll have a problem.

The Housing Boom and Bust was government pushed at the core. Many people were to blame for it happening. The Borrowers, lenders, government and financial markets. They were all players. But mostly can be tracked to government at the start that pushed for more housing to people that couldn't afford it.

Regulation is what causes prices to rise. An example is housing prices that rose in San Francisco, due to land restrictions placed to save the "environment" they ended up creating artificial scarcity. When you have a growing population and unable to build new houses from restrictions it causes prices to rise. You end up paying more for the land then the actual house. That same house in Houston or Dallas would be a lot cheaper since they have no land restriction placed by tree huggers. High Housing prices is not the fault of greedy private markets but the fault of government regulation coming in the picture. This was a contributing factor to the housing boom and bust.

There was no Great Depression until Government started to intervene in the economy. After the stock market crashed in 1929 unemployment shot to 9% for one month. Then unemployment dropped to 6.3% in June 1930. Then the Smoot-Hawley Tariff Bill came in the picture that was pushed by politicians. More then a thousand economists begged for government not to push for this bill. But they ignored and did it anyway to try to fix things. Then in 6 months unemployment hit the double digits and topped 20% and stayed there for 35 months. It all wasn't just the Smoot-Hawley tariffs either, FDR came in to also try to fix things, he passed the national recovery act, agriculture adjustment act, the Wagner act and still unemployment didn't drop. Roosevelt's New Deal actually prolonged the Great Depression.

For 150 years since the creation of this country the government did nothing and economy recovery on its own every time. It wasn't until government started to meddle into things that made the economy worse off and we had the worse economic crisis in America.

While we’re in Candyland I’ll take some chocolate.