Communism or capitalism?

[TotalInsanity4]

Neither; Socialism, like literally the rest of the civilized world

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In communism, Where is the incentive to excel? Before anyone else has the right to comment, refute that. Why be a doctor? Why rise to the top?

You mean to tell me that you wouldn't want to achieve anything in your line of work if you weren't paid higher than everyone else to do it?

 

[Saiyan Lusitano]

Well, Bolshevik was wonderful wasn't it? That was thanks to Communism.

 

[dAVID_]

Here we go again.


I think the communist ideology is perfect world that humans can't achieve.
In this perfect world, you can give people everything that they need to live a healthy life, and still work.

One thing I hate about communism is that everything you can invent, isn't really yours, because doing so would make the other people poor relative to you.

I fear this thread is going to derail in a couple of people calling themselves "brainwashed capitalist pigs" and "delusional commie utopists" at some point.

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Karl Marx was absolutely correct on how and why capitalism will fail in the long run. Capitalism starts out with promise, and looks good at first. But, over time the wealth gap will widen, and eventually you will have a relative few that command 99% of the wealth in a capitalistic society. In the end, it doesn't matter what kind of system you have. General speaking, humans are filthy, greedy, scheming, lying, decietful, cunning, selfish, power hungry pieces of shit and all systems will get corrupted and imbalanced due to these fundamental characteristics of human behavior.

This.

 

[ThisIsDaAccount]

Capitalism is pretty great. I just think it needs to be well regulated in a way that maximizes creation of small businesses.

 

[TotalInsanity4]

One thing I hate about communism is that everything you can invent, isn't really yours, because doing so would make the other people poor relative to you.

I don't see that as the biggest issue, as one could argue that humans have a drive to innovate so long as it makes life easier for themselves in the end as well. The BIGGEST issue with large-scale communism is that as soon as you make everyone economically "equal", there rises up a prick that wants to be "more equal" than everyone else, and suddenly you have a dictator that you can't get rid of

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Capitalism is pretty great. I just think it needs to be well regulated in a way that maximizes creation of small businesses.

So like

Socialism

 

[dAVID_]

I don't see that as the biggest issue, as one could argue that humans have a drive to innovate so long as it makes life easier for themselves in the end as well. The BIGGEST issue with large-scale communism is that as soon as you make everyone economically "equal", there rises up a prick that wants to be "more equal" than everyone else, and suddenly you have a dictator that you can't get rid of

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So like

Socialism

And this is where human nature comes into play.
Even socialism, which is a less pure way of communism, seems too far-fetched for me.

 

[VinsCool]

Whatever system that doesn't let people starve to death.

 

[TotalInsanity4]

Whatever system that doesn't let people starve to death.

I wish I could honestly say "I think that's what we all want," but I really don't know if that's true or not

 

[Reploid]

If I'll choose communism, it will justify me jailbreaking my switch?

 

[lexarvn]

If I'll choose communism, it will justify me jailbreaking my switch?

Either way you can't justify it.

Under pure communism, the switch isn't really yours, it's the government's, so you'd be tampering with government property.
Under pure capitalism, you don't own the switch, you are just granted a license to use it the way the manufacturer intended, so you'd be operating outside your license agreement.

Turns out that either way, people don't really own anything. Either the government owns everything, or corporations do.

 

[TotalInsanity4]

Under pure communism, the switch isn't really yours, it's the government's, so you'd be tampering with government property.

Correction, under pure communism, if I understand correctly, the knowledge of how to make a Switch is in the public domain so that anyone can make one given the materials and expertise. You're thinking of corrupt communism; in theory, there IS no government under pure communism

 

[Reploid]

Either way you can't justify it.

Under pure communism, the switch isn't really yours, it's the government's, so you'd be tampering with government property.
Under pure capitalism, you don't own the switch, you are just granted a license to use it the way the manufacturer intended, so you'd be operating outside your license agreement.

Turns out that either way, people don't really own anything. Either the government owns everything, or corporations do.

Oh, now I remember why I wanted to become a hermit. Or any other other kind of frog.

 

[lexarvn]

Correction, under pure communism, if I understand correctly, the knowledge of how to make a Switch is in the public domain so that anyone can make one given the materials and expertise. You're thinking of corrupt communism; in theory, there IS no government under pure communism

Fair enough. The way I always thought of it though is you have to have someone that manages the communal goods, if for no other reason but to handle the logistics of said communal goods, thus you have government, even if that government could be run as an automated computer program.

 

[emigre]

I think a lot of people here want is Social Democracy. As much as I think Marx is racking political thinker, Marxism and Communism haven't been relevant political alternatives since the end of Cold War. North Korea is just a despot state, China is state capitalism.

I think there are a number of issues with the present state of Lassaiz Faire capitalism and people are really questioning if that system works for them. As a Brit, I've seen the cost of housing go through the roof with 'affordable housing' still being unaffordable, increasing the cost of living coupled with the shrinking of salaries and workplace conditions. And these are issues which people across the developed world are facing similar. People who 'doing the right thing' but are struggling. Previously conventional thinking to eliminating poverty was getting into work but the majority of families in poverty actually do work but living on the breadline. I think there's a real feeling since the financial crisis of 2008, the average Joe has been screwed around by the system, it was a crisis caused by the banking system but Joe Public has picked up the cost which generated a greater feeling of disillusionment and criticism of the present economic system.

Personally, in the future, I would want to see a retreat from such Lassaiz Faire which incorporates stringent regulation and greater state and community ownership in the economy for a mixed economy, I think this can provide a great amount of social good for society to see people have greater charge of their destinies in it be via resident committees, cooperatives or worker-owned businesses. Heck, even something like Local Government making a conscious decision to procure from local vendors can have a transformative impact on its local economy. The old argument of capitalism vs communism belongs to the scrapheap, I think the question we should be asking is 'what society do we what?' and that will be a better guide in deciding what economic structure we want. Do we incorporate a universal basic income, when it comes to automation, how about the robots are owned by the workers? In assessing a future economic system, there's going to be a great number of flexibilities and need for new ideas.

 

[TotalInsanity4]

I think a lot of people here want is Social Democracy. As much as I think Marx is racking political thinker, Marxism and Communism haven't been relevant political alternatives since the end of Cold War. North Korea is just a despot state, China is state capitalism.

I think there are a number of issues with the present state of Lassaiz Faire capitalism and people are really questioning if that system works for them. As a Brit, I've seen the cost of housing go through the roof with 'affordable housing' still being unaffordable, increasing the cost of living coupled with the shrinking of salaries and workplace conditions. And these are issues which people across the developed world are facing similar. People who 'doing the right thing' but are struggling. Previously conventional thinking to eliminating poverty was getting into work but the majority of families in poverty actually do work but living on the breadline. I think there's a real feeling since the financial crisis of 2008, the average Joe has been screwed around by the system, it was a crisis caused by the banking system but Joe Public has picked up the cost which generated a greater feeling of disillusionment and criticism of the present economic system.

Personally, in the future, I would want to see a retreat from such Lassaiz Faire which incorporates stringent regulation and greater state and community ownership in the economy for a mixed economy, I think this can provide a great amount of social good for society to see people have greater charge of their destinies in it be via resident committees, cooperatives or worker-owned businesses. Heck, even something like Local Government making a conscious decision to procure from local vendors can have a transformative impact on its local economy. The old argument of capitalism vs communism belongs to the scrapheap, I think the question we should be asking is 'what society do we what?' and that will be a better guide in deciding what economic structure we want. Do we incorporate a universal basic income, when it comes to automation, how about the robots are owned by the workers? In assessing a future economic system, there's going to be a great number of flexibilities and need for new ideas.

Well thought and well said

 

[linuxares]

Neither, you need to "mix them" and it's mostly called Socialdemocracy today.

 

[The Catboy]

Personally I find Capitalism tends to get a free pass far too often. In the US for example, people die every single day due to preventable and or curable illness, injuries, etc. these deaths are often caused not by them refusing help, but being unable to afford health due to the privatized medical system. People are starving, freezing, and just dying every single day in horrible situations because we put money over people. This system is also extremely exploitable and often used to ensure the rich stay on top, while the poor struggle to get anywhere. Capitalism is very much profit over people and dangerous without some form of intervention.
Now of course Communism has it's flaws, but I personally want to argue that most of the people through out history weren't true "Communists." They had some of the Communist values, but very clearly only used them to abuse them. Stalin (the best example) ran a heavy handed military state that used Communism as a justification to overstep bounties, starve people, and basically put himself in control as an almost God-Like leader. This was a rather clear example of abusing the movement to benefit himself by ensuring everyone was "equal" through suffering. This however does expose a lot of the glaring flaws in Communism, which is an unchecked government can very easily become an overstepping government.
Neither system is perfect and both have blood on their hands and glaring flaws. What people need more is a mix of ideas, not one solid path. Both have their good parts, but alone both can be extremely dangerous and easily abused.

 

[JellyPerson]

Come with me comrades, we shall overthrow the capitalist pigs

 

[TotalInsanity4]

Personally I find Capitalism tends to get a free pass far too often. In the US for example, people die every single day due to preventable and or curable illness, injuries, etc. these deaths are often caused not by them refusing help, but being unable to afford health due to the privatized medical system. People are starving, freezing, and just dying every single day in horrible situations because we put money over people. This system is also extremely exploitable and often used to ensure the rich stay on top, while the poor struggle to get anywhere. Capitalism is very much profit over people and dangerous without some form of intervention.
Now of course Communism has it's flaws, but I personally want to argue that most of the people through out history weren't true "Communists." They had some of the Communist values, but very clearly only used them to abuse them. Stalin (the best example) ran a heavy handed military state that used Communism as a justification to overstep bounties, starve people, and basically put himself in control as an almost God-Like leader. This was a rather clear example of abusing the movement to benefit himself by ensuring everyone was "equal" through suffering. This however does expose a lot of the glaring flaws in Communism, which is an unchecked government can very easily become an overstepping government.
Neither system is perfect and both have blood on their hands and glaring flaws. What people need more is a mix of ideas, not one solid path. Both have their good parts, but alone both can be extremely dangerous and easily abused.

You know what pisses me off most about the current US implementation of capitalism?
What's that, TI?
It's that it directly contradicts the second fucking line of the Declaration of Independence, being

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.

For poor people, our current system restricts the right to life in the form of privatized healthcare, liberty in the form of for-profit prisons, and the pursuit of happiness by making people pay out the ass for any form of higher education

 

[The Catboy]

You know what pisses me off most about the current US implementation of capitalism?
What's that, TI?
It's that it directly contradicts the second fucking line of the Declaration of Independence, being

For poor people, our current system restricts the right to life in the form of privatized healthcare, liberty in the form of for-profit prisons, and the pursuit of happiness by making people pay out the ass for any form of higher education

The US is prime example of abusive Capitalism. We like to pretend we are so "free" and "amazing," but live in system that has rendered it nearly impossible to get anywhere in life if you weren't born into wealth. We literally have a class called "The Working Poor," a class of people working a full-time job (sometimes more than one) and yet still can't make over the poverty line. That's just insane to think that someone can actually be working a job, yet still be be living in poverty. It's worse knowing that people feel like defending a system so obviously broken and dehumanizing. This is an example of abusive Capitalism that grossly favors the wealthiest by stepping on the poor.