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Communism or capitalism?

CallmeBerto

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Neither nor. Neither is executed well as of now. Capitalism benefits a few who just got lucky. Effort does not equal wealth. You could work off your arse all life long and some fat banker gets rich because of that work you put in. Capitalism the way it is right now is just modern slavery unless you happen to know the right people.

Socialism in its originally intended form would be pretty nice. I just can't think of any country that has a system like that. Even countries that identify as socialist or communist don't have much in common with the ideas of Marx, Engels or Lenin.


I've already kinda answered why communism is BS and would never work (doesn't even work on paper) -

Pure communism doesn't work because it is 100% utopian BS. It doesn't even work on paper. First we have to believe everyone is the same. (We are not and we will never will be.) Not only are there differences between just two guys (overall genetic abilities) between the genders (men are stronger then women and women have babies). We would also have to believe that there is no such thing as human nature. I mean do I even need to explain how bat shit crazy this statement is?

Also you can't just give things away for free (that is how you run out of things). Also who the heck is going to pay all the taxes for this? The evil rich people? Yeah that will indeed work...for awhile until the taxes become too much and they take their ball and go home.

I'd also like to reply to a few other things you said.

"Capitalism benefits a few who just got lucky. Effort does not equal wealth. You could work off your arse all life long and some fat banker gets rich because of that work you put in."

This is 100% untrue. If you work hard and I mean really work and bring as much value as you can to the market people will indeed pay you a lot of money. Are there people who get lucky and get an easy life? You bet your ass there is. Life isn't fair no point in crying about it and work towards being the best version of you, you can be.
 

SonowRaevius

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I don't want Stalin but I also don't want private companies running my country.


My family is on food stamps (single mom with two kids and a father that pays $500/mo for child support). Guess we're leeches?
Don't you know that anyone on any government program are a bunch of do-nothing leeches that just sit on their lazy asses and collecting "the walfare" from the government.

Not like a good number of people are working 40+ hours a week, doing the best they can with the hand they were dealt or anything like that trying to make living and need the help to get by, just a bunch of worthless people who could EASILY get out of their position if they just tried.

((The last two statements were sarcasm))

Also, I swear people who have never had the need for the programs always have some bullshit story about how "well I knew this person who used their benefits to buy drugs", "This one person is lazy and didn't work a day in their lives and still got benefits" or "there was this one rich person making off like bandit" and then try to apply to anyone on said benefits and act like that is why we should have them completely taken away and why we shouldn't do anything to try to help people out of a bad situation at any point.

And yes I am very pissed off at this because I was made fun of for being fucking poor for most of my goddamn life and I am sick off all these washed up ass-hat motherfuckers always mocking those less fortunate and acting like they are fucking getting benefits just to bug or make them pay more taxes. It also pisses me the fuck off because my mother worked 2 fucking jobs to house and feed me and my sibling, but because we got food stamps, people called her a fucking leech too and mocked her at her jobs.

Edit: I do apologize for the insults and anger, this is one thing that really does grind at my gears.
 
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SG854

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I hate to say it, but survival of the fittest.
Survival of the Fittest is not what you think it means. It's Survival of the Fittest, not Survival of the Strongest.

Some Mammals for example evolved to be much smaller than some Dinosaurs. In a fight with a T-Rex a small Rat will loose. But when resources were scarce a bigger body means more food you need, Mammals with smaller bodies only needed smaller amounts of food and thus more likely to survive. Mammals were more fit to survive and bigger Dinosaurs weren't and they became extinct. And populations evolve not individuals. Humans evolved to be a social species and work together, this is why we even have language in the first place. And emotions that push us to correct our behavior when we step out of line and get criticisms.

If a society incorporates socialism and it provides an advantage to them compared to a capitalist society that crumbles, then the socialist society would be more fit to survive. Just an example for arguments sake, and i'm not saying socialism is better than capitalism, or vice versa.

Oh I 100% agree. In fact that is the problem, we have more single mothers, poor people because of that. Honestly we need to stop rewarding people for making bad decisions but to say that is be called heartless. (not that IGAF)

However there must also be systems in place so that people who aren't born in the bottom are stuck there forever. I personally don't have a solution to this.

Ima spit ball an idea and tell me what you think -

"I'm not a fan of people not being able to access education because of the price tag. Therefore I seems fine to be to pay for someone's education if they show potential. Good grades, no crime, works hard, give back to the community. The system we have in place now were any dumb fuck can get free money from the government even if it is clear as day they will never become anything is crazy to me."
The welfare state is a single mother state or non 2 parents family state. People with intact families only 2%-5% take money out of the (TANF) federal welfare system. The majority who are on welfare are single mothers. The rest are from people who are Aunts, Uncles and Grandparents watching kids who no longer live with biological parents.

Single motherhood you can partly blame the divorce system in America. Divorce Courts compared to Regular courts are courts of Equity, which means constitutional rights do not apply to it. The 6th amendment that guarantees you a lawyer if you can't afford one does not apply in Divorce courts. Which means if you can't afford one then too bad for you. And lawyers are $500 and up an hour.
 
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dpad_5678

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Don't you know that anyone on any government program are a bunch of do-nothing leeches that just sit on their lazy asses and collecting "the walfare" from the government.

Not like a good number of people are working 40+ hours a week, doing the best they can with the hand they were dealt or anything like that trying to make living and need the help to get by, just a bunch of worthless people who could EASILY get out of their position if they just tried.

((The last two statements were sarcasm))

Also, I swear people who have never had the need for the programs always have some bullshit story about how "well I knew this person who used their benefits to buy drugs", "This one person is lazy and didn't work a day in their lives and still got benefits" or "there was this one rich person making off like bandit" and then try to apply to anyone on said benefits and act like that is why we should have them completely taken away and why we shouldn't do anything to try to help people out of a bad situation at any point.

And yes I am very pissed off at this because I was made fun of for being fucking poor for most of my goddamn life and I am sick off all these washed up ass-hat motherfuckers always mocking those less fortunate and acting like they are fucking getting benefits just to bug or make them pay more taxes. It also pisses me the fuck off because my mother worked 2 fucking jobs to house and feed me and my sibling, but because we got food stamps, people called her a fucking leech too and mocked her at her jobs.
My thoughts exactly! Honestly the real leeches are the societal leeches aka the people who say "yeah, they may work 40-60 hours a week at minimum wage to support a family of four, but it's not the country's fault that it's still not enough to support basic human rights (food, etc)! It's their's! How do they ask for assistance? *insert more conservative ranting here*"

There's HUGE difference between so-called "handouts" and something someone and/or their family actually requires to survive.
 

Xzi

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Pure capitalism and pure communism have both had their share of failures. The best system is a hybrid of several economic inspirations. Unfortunately the US has lost sight of that in recent years, and opted for a greedy capitalist society with a crumbling infrastructure and poor pollution regulation.
 

deinonychus71

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Please don't take this personally, I got really passionate xD

Comping the USA to Europe is insane. Comparing any country to another is insane. Each country has their own culture, history, ideas all which play a HUGE role in how it affects every aspect of their country including crime rates. Copying their policies here without taking anything I said above into consideration would never work.
How is that insane... ? Would you rather ignore how other countries are doing, even if what they are doing work better, simply based on the fact that people would have different cultures? They are different cultures within a country, should we never compare them?

And speaking of the U.S., Europeans and Americans have a common history (Christianity being one of them) and are countries of similar wealthness. Their culture is close enough to justify a fair comparison. It's perfectly valid to compare them and look at examples where some "ideas" are implemented, instead of automatically denying its feasibility without having to provide argumentation (that's what politics do). In many ways, Europe found some inspiration looking at the U.S. for a large number of things these past decades. Maybe the U.S. could do the same sometimes, especially regarding some current, hot topics (I won't get into that).

By reading international newspapers, you could also make your own opinion on whether something could potentially work or not, and whether the reflection you have or your own society is accurate or biased. Constant demonizing of socialism in the U.S., now THAT is insane, and it relies on nothing more than a wide spread propaganda. Safety nets? lots of them are in place in Europe, even in Canada, and the countries aren't crowded with poor people abusing them (though some individuals are abusing - yes). It offers a peace of mind in life, where you know that should something bad happen to you, where you're not necessarily responsible of (sickness, cancer, whatever) your country is not going to throw a big fuck you at your face, with people around you telling you they give no shit about contributing 1% of their "hard earned money" for a safety net that EVERYONE could need someday.
Sure! It might not work as well in a society filled with individualism, but that doesn't mean you can't try to educate people to its benefits rather than letting fatality win. The all too common "Thoughts and prayers" every time something goes wrong!

That's actually my one big complain since I moved to the US, the absolute ignorance that some people (public figures, politics, and some medias) show everyday regarding their understanding or the world. You can thank biased medias and lobbies funding campaigns for that, there was one guy at least open to give it all a fresh look, and he was beaten by Clinton, not that they ever fought on equal grounds anyway...

On safety nets...so I'm torn on this. It is true that good honest people do indeed fall on hard times (sometimes through no fault of their own) and helping one another would be the moral thing to do. However if you subsidized something you get more of it(agro more poor people) If you tax it you get less of it (people who are willing to put in extra hours of work) You need to find a balance and I think the USA has gone far to far into the subsidized part of it. Look at the single motherhood rate, look at all the poor people who are doing NOTHING to improve their lives and instead leeching off the government and demanding more and more.
For the love of everything that matters, about poor people, this is typically a case where you SHOULD look at how other countries are doing. Yes there's always a risk of people leeching and abusing systems, however in the U.S. such systems barely exist, what exist is that you can be a worker at walmart, working full time, and get completely screwed in life because of one health care bill, BECAUSE there are no safety net. Having safety nets is essential. It is to me so much more important than a few potential leechers ! Those you can always try to rule them out by being smarter and smart about who you help. But priorities, PLEASE!
And being a IT dev, paying a lot of taxes in the US, I would GLADLY spend even more if these people weren't stuck in a hellhole where they kept being blamed by people richer than them, while having next to no security in life, thanks to an extreme idea of capitalism that makes even health care related services an excuse to screw people over for profit.
Also, instead of automatically blaming the poor, maybe try to work around fixing the root cause? I don't know... free education comes in mind, giving everyone a fair change to succeed FIRST and then sure, if they don't give a shit, they won't ever be rich, their bad for being lazy... but at least give them a fair chance. But it's too easy to not look at the inherent problems that living in poor areas bring, and then blame them for leeching off the society, and blame them for all the violence. A successful civilization should ALWAYS work towards reducing inequalities between the top of the society and the bottom. Reducing them, but still allowing people to breath and succeed through meritocracy.

rent over, please don't hate me <3
 
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sarkwalvein

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Once upon a time there was Russia. And there was the Soviet Union. And there was China. All powers that were "enemies" or strong competitors. The media had to come up with some word to encompass them, so they choose communism.

They happened to be communist or socialist states, so that made it easy to choose the term, but you must take into account that later the term was used to represent those regions (specially the Soviet Union) and their crimes, some times real, some time exaggerated.

Nowadays, when we talk about communism, we are really talking of the image the media left on us from the Soviet Union and their allies, and not from the economic model. We also talk of the economic model some times, but always with a big influence from that old narrative that communism is what the Soviet Union made.

Russia is still Russia nowadays, it is not communist at all, more like a fascist Capitalism, very Mussolinesque, it still is quite shady, and perhaps even unconsciously people think of communism when talking about Russia. The same can be said about China, a very fascist Capitalist country (communism only in its "People" country name).

Socialism and Communism might have been synonyms at some time in the past, they are not anymore since a long time ago. The mass media and propaganda made sure to change the meaning of the word "communism".

That said, I lean center-right. If anything. I believe it is what works better.
 
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GhostLatte

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Please don't take this personally, I got really passionate xD


How is that insane... ? Would you rather ignore how other countries are doing, even if what they are doing work better, simply based on the fact that people would have different cultures? They are different cultures within a country, should we never compare them?

And speaking of the U.S., Europeans and Americans have a common history (Christianity being one of them) and are countries of similar wealthness. Their culture is close enough to justify a fair comparison. It's perfectly valid to compare them and look at examples where some "ideas" are implemented, instead of automatically denying its feasibility without having to provide argumentation (that's what politics do). In many ways, Europe found some inspiration looking at the U.S. for a large number of things these past decades. Maybe the U.S. could do the same sometimes, especially regarding some current, hot topics (I won't get into that).

By reading international newspapers, you could also make your own opinion on whether something could potentially work or not, and whether the reflection you have or your own society is accurate or biased. Constant demonizing of socialism in the U.S., now THAT is insane, and it relies on nothing more than a wide spread propaganda. Safety nets? lots of them are in place in Europe, even in Canada, and the countries aren't crowded with poor people abusing them (though some individuals are abusing - yes). It offers a peace of mind in life, where you know that should something bad happen to you, where you're not necessarily responsible of (sickness, cancer, whatever) your country is not going to throw a big fuck you at your face, with people around you telling you they give no shit about contributing 1% of their "hard earned money" for a safety net that EVERYONE could need someday.
Sure! It might not work as well in a society filled with individualism, but that doesn't mean you can't try to educate people to its benefits rather than letting fatality win. The all too common "Thoughts and prayers" every time something goes wrong!

That's actually my one big complain since I moved to the US, the absolute ignorance that some people (public figures, politics, and some medias) show everyday regarding their understanding or the world. You can thank biased medias and lobbies funding campaigns for that, there was one guy at least open to give it all a fresh look, and he was beaten by Clinton, not that they ever fought on equal grounds anyway...


For the love of everything that matters, about poor people, this is typically a case where you SHOULD look at how other countries are doing. Yes there's always a risk of people leeching and abusing systems, however in the U.S. such systems barely exist, what exist is that you can be a worker at walmart, working full time, and get completely screwed in life because of one health care bill, BECAUSE there are no safety net. Having safety nets is essential. It is to me so much more important than a few potential leechers ! Those you can always try to rule them out by being smarter and smart about who you help. But priorities, PLEASE!
And being a IT dev, paying a lot of taxes in the US, I would GLADLY spend even more if these people weren't stuck in a hellhole where they kept being blamed by people richer than them, while having next to no security in life, thanks to an extreme idea of capitalism that makes even health care related services an excuse to screw people over for profit.
Also, instead of automatically blaming the poor, maybe try to work around fixing the root cause? I don't know... free education comes in mind, giving everyone a fair change to succeed FIRST and then sure, if they don't give a shit, they won't ever be rich, their bad for being lazy... but at least give them a fair chance. But it's too easy to not look at the inherent problems that living in poor areas bring, and then blame them for leeching off the society, and blame them for all the violence. A successful civilization should ALWAYS work towards reducing inequalities between the top of the society and the bottom. Reducing them, but still allowing people to breath and succeed through meritocracy.

rent over, please don't hate me <3
There always have to be someone who resorts to that argument.
 
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sarkwalvein

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There always have to be someone who resorts to that argument.

Venezuela? Communist? What?
Also, the Russian Federation? Communist?

That's what I meant with that post, communist doesn't mean what it meant originally anymore, but it is a word to describe "what the enemy made", changed to that meaning by old times propaganda.

Venezuela is as "communist" as the dictatorial governments in Latin America that the USA supported in the 70s/80s.
Oh, wait, those weren't "communists" because those were allies.

All that shit looks quite the same to me, fascist capitalism.
 

Stephano

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It's already been said but I'll through my hat in the ring. There are some aspects of Communism/Socialism that are needed in society because for a government to do there job (assuming they actually do their job...), they need some of those ideals. Things like taxation and public education are two things that are socialist in principle but are widely considered important. Without taxation, we wouldn't be able to fund a military, police, public roads, or public parks. While there is an argument for private education, the argument still requires funding from the government. If students had to pay to go to school, there would be several families that wouldn't be able to send their kids to school. Less people graduating and entering the professional workforce means, less money being generated in the market.

There are a few other things like legislation to deter companies from outsourcing labor and try to in source instead which are definitely not capitalist ideals. For things like this, there are definitely some that are okay with this because it keeps business here which means are money stays here. A country should export goods more than they are importing to keep money in our local economy.

In short, I love capitalism because it makes my journey through college more meaningful and worthwhile. I can be calm in knowing that my hard work now will guaranty me a good paying job in the future.
 

osaka35

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Capitalism motivates production, but it also promotes greed and corruption, to the point of a kind of caste-styled system
socialism ensures no one gets left behind, but reduces motivation and can be ripe for abuse as well if handled poorly

So what's the answer? What appears to work, when placed in real-world scenarios, is socialism up to a point, then capitalism with individual protections (there's more than those two, but I'll keep it simple). maximizes the benefits of the various systems, with fewer of the weaknesses. Universal income and universal healthcare seem to ensure folks can focus on doing better, rather than just surviving. At that point, capitalism kicks in and folks have no problem jumping right in and leveraging that system's strengths. This is apparently how most humans are wired. Doesn't really matter what you think will or won't work, the numbers seem to indicate this is indeed how humans tend to operate. google "Maslow's hierarchy of needs" if you're curious as to why this might be the case. Personally, I think It'll be interesting to see how different cultures (like the US) would handle this scenario after a few years of trying it.

And really, if you think one system is flawless and the other one idiotic, then you understand neither.
 
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SG854

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Capitalism motivates production, but it also promotes greed and corruption, to the point of a kind of caste-styled system
socialism ensures no one gets left behind, but reduces motivation and can be ripe for abuse as well if handled poorly

So what's the answer? What appears to work, when placed in real-world scenarios, is socialism up to a point, then capitalism with individual protections (there's more than those two, but I'll keep it simple). maximizes the benefits of the various systems, with fewer of the weaknesses. Universal income and universal healthcare seem to ensure folks can focus on doing better, rather than just surviving. At that point, capitalism kicks in and folks have no problem jumping right in and leveraging that system's strengths. This is apparently how most humans are wired. Doesn't really matter what you think will or won't work, the numbers seem to indicate this is indeed how humans tend to operate. google "Maslow's hierarchy of needs" if you're curious as to why this might be the case. Personally, I think It'll be interesting to see how different cultures (like the US) would handle this scenario after a few years of trying it.

And really, if you think one system is flawless and the other one idiotic, then you understand neither.
We do need a better Health Care system then the one we have over in America. Medication that costs $40 elsewhere can cost $600 over here for no reason at all other then greed. Patents can make them free from competition. Once a patent runs out, and competitors can make copies of a drug and sell it for cheaper, they come out with a "NEW" drug that has a fresh new patent that they claim to be better when in reality its effects are exactly the same as the old drug, and they have monopoly over it and sell it for ridiculous prices.

Many drugs (maybe most) are nothing but expensive placebo's. Some drugs are life saving, some necessary for survival, some are very helpful, but there are lots that are completely useless. And when people get better they think its the drugs when in reality its the human body healing itself and naturally getting better over time. Many new drugs are not created to cure diseases and instead are created to generate profits. And they convince doctors and patients that new drugs because are better than old ones.
 
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bitjacker

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In communism, Where is the incentive to excel? Before anyone else has the right to comment, refute that. Why be a doctor? Why rise to the top?
 

oji

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A capitalism model is a way to nowhere as it last only while an economy continuously grow which is possible only while 3rd world countries exists & milked to death by 1st world economies. On an opposite side a communism is a great idea but it's near to impossible in a modern world as it proved by USSR.
 
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I've always been a strong supporter of capitalism and have failed to see the beauty of communism as described by some people on the left. Communism has never worked and seems like a flawed system that could never be able to work. Also, it's been attributed to more deaths than fascism yet people constantly place Hitler as being more evil than Stalin or Mao.
Karl Marx was absolutely correct on how and why capitalism will fail in the long run. Capitalism starts out with promise, and looks good at first. But, over time the wealth gap will widen, and eventually you will have a relative few that command 99% of the wealth in a capitalistic society. In the end, it doesn't matter what kind of system you have. Generally speaking, humans are filthy, greedy, scheming, lying, decietful, cunning, selfish, power hungry pieces of shit and all systems will get corrupted and imbalanced due to these fundamental characteristics of human behavior.
 
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