Do You Believe In God?

[KSP]

Yes, its just scientifically impossible for the universe to have come from nothing, and life cannot emerge from an empty void according to science.
So, god must exist by deductive logic.

But I don't believe god to be kind or benevolent. god is just the creator nothing more. God would be as benevolent to mankind as we would be to an tree ant.
God is god, its not kind, its not benevolent, but it did create the universe, and that's all.

And yes, I do refer to God as an it, not a he or she, because any being able to create the universe cannot be quantified by genders, or race, or creed, or culture. It must be beyond everything that we can imagine.

 

[Foxi4]

That's a pretty close-minded way to think about it. You say I start killing people because ISIS tells me to? Hello? I don't care what other people think about me, especially cold-blooded killers like ISIS. Look at my flag and read my post again and you'll understand.

How am I hurting other people just for believing and how is believing in religion selfish? I honestly don't know what you're trying to say here.

It's indeed very close-minded, he's likening all religion to extremism, pushing the idea that if you believe in something, you're automatically simple-minded and easy to manipulate, as if the capacity to learn and critical thinking weren't skills you can have. Being religious or atheist has nothing to do with your ability to use mental faculties - sure, there are Christians who want to teach creationism instead of evolution, there are Muslims who kill people for being different, but that's not because they're religious, it's because they're particularily naive, not to say stupid individuals. Atheism doesn't make anyone smarter or more clever than a religious person - there's no shortage of atheist idiots and history shows that atheist ideologies have as much of a potential for hate and destruction as religious ones. He has a pre-conception of what religion is and doesn't take into account the function religion plays in people's lives. "Being religious or not" and "Not being an asshole" are mutually exclusive.

 

[Hungry Friend]

Yes I do, didn't for 28 years and the reasons I changed my mind are quite personal and by the standards of social norms are completely "crazy", although that word is quite overused these days. It was not a sudden change in beliefs/an epiphany, but a very gradual process that lead me to accept Christ, and if I wouldn't have, I would've been dead years ago. That's as personal as I'm willing to get.

 

[Mr. Prince]

It's obviously not, he's likening all religion to extremism, pushing the idea that if you believe in something, you're automiatically simple-minded and easy to manipulate, as if the capacity to learn and critical thinking weren't skills you can have. Being religious or atheist has nothing to do with your ability to use mental faculties - sure, there are Christians who want to teach Creationism instead of evolution, there are Muslims who kill people for being different, but that's not because they're religious, it's because they're particularily naive, not to say stupid individuals. Atheism doesn't make anyone smarter or more clever than a religious person - there's no shortage of atheist idiots and history shows that atheist ideologies have as much of a potential for hate and destruction as religious ones.

Oh my bad. I misinterpreted his post. For some reason I thought he/she wrote that ALL muslims (Or every religious person) will become killers (Or at least believe in killing) at one point. While I don't like to say it, most of the people where I live are extremely easy to manipulate. 1-2 years ago, most of the people were rooting for ISIS (I know, I'm disgusted by it, too). Right now, however, the whole place is filled with anti-ISIS propaganda. Posters with "Death to ISIS" plastered all over hospitals (As a med student, I can't help but find it ironic), government-owned news channels cursing everyone who supports ISIS, and even the king, himself, speaking against them. The same people who were supporting ISIS 1-2 years ago are now extremely vocal against them. I do believe that religion has a part in this, but I honestly think it's more related to politics and how the person was raised. Just when ISIS started to threaten the royal family, the anti-ISIS mentality started growing. Coincidence? I think not (I always wanted to say that lol). People here were raised with the "my country is better than yours" mentality. And how do they support that claim? By claiming that this country is the most religious and holy place out there. This effectively makes it so they believe that what this country does is always in the name of religion and therefore it is right. That being said, people here actually are becoming more and more open to other beliefs, so that's nice. I probably wouldn't be typing this if I was actually raised here lol.


EDIT: I read your un-edited post. I know that you changed your viewpoint, but I partially agree with your initial statement. I still think it's close-minded that he/she implied that it applies to EVERY person of faith.

 

[Foxi4]

Oh my bad. I misinterpreted his post. For some reason I thought he/she wrote that ALL muslims (Or every religious person) will become killers (Or at least believe in killing) at one point. While I don't like to say it, most of the people where I live are extremely easy to manipulate. 1-2 years ago, most of the people were rooting for ISIS (I know, I'm disgusted by it, too). Right now, however, the whole place is filled with anti-ISIS propaganda. Posters with "Death to ISIS" plastered all over hospitals (As a med student, I can't help but find it ironic), government-owned news channels cursing everyone who supports ISIS, and even the king, himself, speaking against them. The same people who were supporting ISIS 1-2 years ago are now extremely vocal against them. I do believe that religion has a part in this, but I honestly think it's more related to politics and how the person was raised. Just when ISIS started to threaten the royal family, the anti-ISIS mentality started growing. Coincidence? I think not (I always wanted to say that lol). People here were raised with the "my country is better than yours" mentality. And how do they support that claim? By claiming that this country is the most religious and holy place out there. This effectively makes it so they believe that what this country does is always in the name of religion and therefore it is right. That being said, people here actually are becoming more and more open to other beliefs, so that's nice. I probably wouldn't be typing this if I was actually raised here lol.

EDIT: I read your un-edited post. I know that you changed your viewpoint, but I partially agree with your initial statement. I still think it's close-minded that he/she implied that it applies to EVERY person of faith.

Even as a Christian I find the idea that Islam is to blame for terrorism repulsive. Everyone knows that these violent idiots make your life a living hell and brew internal conflict when the average muslim just wants to peacefuly get on with his/her life. Islam is not to blame here - poverty and poor education are. The bombs aren't helping either - I can see how someone would resent the West if it invaded his/her country and put a bullet through his/her brother's head, even if accidentally. It's pretty obvious that all the ISIS masterminds want is power, and they're using poor, gullible and hurt people to do their bidding. It's a huge mess, but religion has little to do with it - ISIS fighters don't kill for Allah, even if they claim to do so, they kill because of blind hate. I feel that it's hard to be a muslim in the wake of recent attacks. People apply that same blind hate to judge you all when really, ISIS, the Taliban etc. are just small subsets of all muslims, and I don't think it's a coincidence that they're so agressive - the West gives them all the reasons to with their constant interventions in middle-eastern affairs. If the West could befriend the East, muslims in those regions would have no reason to hate them and by extention terrorist cells would have no pull over the impressionable youth which can't see far beyond the basic idea of revenge. They were spoon-fed the idea that the West is the enemy and the only way to achieve peace is to eliminate its influence, just one of the many lies terrorists spout, and we're making it all too easy with constant Western military presence in the area. Violence begets violence, not religion. Blaming religion for the current situation is close-minded and omits crucial facts - even without Islam in the picture, anti-western terrorists would still be there because we keep poking the ant hill.

 

[Jack_Sparrow]

Even as a Christian I find the idea that Islam is to blame for terrorism repulsive. Everyone knows that these violent idiots make your life a living hell and brew internal conflict when the average muslim just wants to peacefuly get on with his/her life. Islam is not to blame here - poverty and poor education are. The bombs aren't helping either - I can see how someone would resent the West if it invaded his/her country and put a bullet through his brother's head, even if accidentally. It's pretty obvious that all the ISIS masterminds want is power, and they're using poor, gullible and hurt people to do they're bidding. It's a huge mess, but religion has little to do with it - ISIS fighters don't kill for Allah, even if they claim to do so, they kill because of blind hate. I feel that it's hard to be a muslim in the wake of recent attacks. People apply that same blind hate to judge you all when really, ISIS, the Taliban etc. are just small subsets of all muslims, and I don't think it's a coincidence that they're so agressive - the West gives them all the reasons to with their constant interventions in middle-eastern affairs. If the West could befriend the East, muslims in those regions would have no reason to hate them and by extention terrorist cells would have no pull over the impressionable youth which can't see far beyond the basic idea of revenge. They were spoon-fed the idea that the West is the enemy and the only way to achieve peace is to eliminate its influence, just one of the many lies terrorists spout, and we're making it all too easy with constant Western military presence in the area. Violence begets violence, not religion.

Yeah, muslims wouldn't get such bad credit if they didn't have ISIS ruining the way they look, Which i know just because your muslim your not ISIS but political figures such as Donald Trump don't seem to see that...

 

[G0R3Z]

Why do you say religion is a bad thing?

What good does it do for our civilisation?

Most 'religious' people don't even know much about their own religion to start with. A vast majority of idiots that cherry pick from the bible don't know many of the other parts, either because they have enough scripture to think their views are morally and ethically sound or they're just not intelligent enough to understand parts.

The devil killed 10 people in the bible, 10. And those were still with permission from god. Reading from the Bible, you'll find passages where God killed at least 2,400,000 people, not including the great flood. You'd have to estimate, but biblical scholars estimate that toll to be about 20,000,000 people. The devil is both less evil and less deadly than God is. God punishes you for being human, the devil does not.

I don't care about terrorism, and people use terrorists to back up points about religion are very misguided. It isn't just Islam, it's all of religion, it genuinely doesn't enrich anybody's life. And what good is an insurance policy that expires as soon as you claim it? If god is as evil as in the bible, I expect very few people ever really got into heaven to start with.

 

[Foxi4]

What good does it do for our civilisation?

Most 'religious' people don't even know much about their own religion to start with. A vast majority of idiots that cherry pick from the bible don't know many of the other parts, either because they have enough scripture to think their views are morally and ethically sound or they're just not intelligent enough to understand parts.

The devil killed 10 people in the bible, 10. And those were still with permission from god. Reading from the Bible, you'll find passages where God killed at least 2,400,000 people, not including the great flood. You'd have to estimate, but biblical scholars estimate that toll to be about 20,000,000 people. The devil is both less evil and less deadly than God is. God punishes you for being human, the devil does not.

The Bible shouldn't be treated as an instruction booklet on how to live your live, it's a set of guidelines with some moralistic stories to go with them. Basic principles, like "don't steal", "don't kill", "don't cheat". I love the fixation most Atheists have around the Old Testament when Christians haven't been duty-bound to follow it - we follow the New Testament, the old one is there as a background for future events. The Bible literally says that the new "Law of Christ" is just two commandments - "Love God" and "Love thy Neighbour".

 

[dimmidice]

What good does it do for our civilisation?

Most 'religious' people don't even know much about their own religion to start with. A vast majority of idiots that cherry pick from the bible don't know many of the other parts, either because they have enough scripture to think their views are morally and ethically sound or they're just not intelligent enough to understand parts.

The devil killed 10 people in the bible, 10. And those were still with permission from god. Reading from the Bible, you'll find passages where God killed at least 2,400,000 people, not including the great flood. You'd have to estimate, but biblical scholars estimate that toll to be about 20,000,000 people. The devil is both less evil and less deadly than God is. God punishes you for being human, the devil does not.

I don't care about terrorism, and people use terrorists to back up points about religion are very misguided. It isn't just Islam, it's all of religion, it genuinely doesn't enrich anybody's life. And what good is an insurance policy that expires as soon as you claim it? If god is as evil as in the bible, I expect very few people ever really got into heaven to start with.

i agree with you completely. the only good thing religion does is bind communities together. but that also has the downside of excluding people of the community who aren't from that one religion. and there's other ways to get a good community spirit.

 

[G0R3Z]

The Bible shouldn't be treated as an instruction booklet on how to live your live, it's a set of guidelines with some moralistic stories to go with them. Basic principles, like "don't steal", "don't kill", "don't cheat". I love the fixation most Atheists have around the Old Testament when Christians haven't been duty-bound to follow it since the reformative period - we follow the New Testament, the old one is there as a background for future events.

Then why read it at all? Why follow a religion that essentially teaches nothing? There's more harm than good in all holy books, they're giant tomes of war and murder.

Nobody needs religion to teach them morality. Religious people use scripture to fuel their good deeds, not because they want to, but because their book tells them too. I suppose they just gloss over murder, rape and slavery? I've never had religion in my life and I turned out well without it. My morality was taught by my parents (both also non-religious). Even then, humans have instincts that we have evolved to know what is right and what is wrong. We know what honesty is, and we know what a lie is, even without having to be taught.

 

[Lord M]

This thread is going to be endless page!

And useless, expecially... Everybody believe and CAN believe in what he want, and is right in this way

 

[dimmidice]

Nobody needs religion to teach them morality.

that's what i don't understand either. christians say they follow the rules because its part of their religion. so what if they weren't religion they'd be out looting and shit? non religious people are just as moral and ethical as religious people.

And useless, expecially... Everybody believe and CAN believe in what he want, and is right in this way

everyone can believe whatever they want. the problem is when people act on those beliefs without consideration.

 

[G0R3Z]

that's what i don't understand either. christians say they follow the rules because its part of their religion. so what if they weren't religion they'd be out looting and shit? non religious people are just as moral and ethical as religious people.

If they followed their book instead of cherry picking the good parts, they'd know their god not just kills people, but condones it as well. But also is a hypocrite by saying not to do it as well.

 

[Foxi4]

Then why read it at all? Why follow a religion that essentially teaches nothing? There's more harm than good in all holy books, they're giant tomes of war and murder.

That's an opinion, not a fact. Religion, much like ideology, can cause good and harm alike, depending on whether it's used correctly or misused. Remember Marx? All he wanted was equality and free distribution of goods. What came out of it? Communism and socialism - totalitarian regimes that killed thousands of people and caused immense suffering and war. Any idea can be perverted and crooked, and the only way to prevent that is to reject ideas altogether, which would essentially mean rejecting everything that makes us human. The only way to prevent tragedy is to educate, teach people to think critically and for themselves instead of being controlled, under whatever dogma, religious or secular.

 

[G0R3Z]

That's an opinion, not a fact. Religion, much like ideology, can cause good and harm alike, depending on whether it's used correctly or misused. Remember Marx? All he wanted was equality and free distribution of goods. What came out of it? Communism and socialism - totalitarian regimes that killed thousands of people and caused immense suffering and war. Any idea can be crooked, and the only way to prevent that is to reject ideas altogether, which would essentially mean rejecting everything that makes us human. The only way to prevent tragedy is to educate, teach people to think critically and for themselves instead of being controlled, under whatever dogma, religious or secular.

You're completely right, but if you read any holy book, you'd also know you're partly wrong. There is so much war and death in the bible and quran. They're the most gruesome pieces of fiction ever written.

 

[Foxi4]

You're completely right, but if you read any holy book, you'd also know you're partly wrong. There is so much war and death in the bible and quran. They're the most gruesome pieces of fiction ever written.

So is your average history book - does that mean we should stop teaching it? Have you ever considered the fact that those events are depicted in such a way to prevent people from committing atrocities? Because that's also the function of history - those who don't know it are bent to repeat it. Does the Bible need a revision? Sure, it's been several centuries, it needs a check-up. Is it wrong as an idea? No, it most certainly isn't.

 

[dimmidice]

what "idea" are you referring too exactly? what does the bible teach that's valuable? that isn't learned by just living your life?

edit: all i remember from bible class (i went to catholic schools) is a bunch of old stories that were cloaked in myth and fairy tales. supposedly they were meant to teach some great truths of life but all those lessons were really pretty obvious shit. e.g. sharing is good, be kind to people, don't stab people in the face. that sort of stuff.

 

[Foxi4]

what "idea" are you referring too exactly? what does the bible teach that's valuable? that isn't learned by just living your life?

It's a vehicle for teaching ethics, and I don't have a problem with that. The difference between pure ethics and religion is that one assumes the existence of a higher authority and the other doesn't. I also don't have a problem with what Atheists call cherry-picking and what I call critical thinking - religious dogmas have been devised centuries ago and don't always reflect the socio-economic climate - that was the reason behind reformation. Questioning authority is crucial in life, I'd argue that we should question everything and always, just to engage our thought process in all decisions and stimulate learning - we need to adjust while remaining ethical. To pick an example of such an adjustment, there's no shortage of Christianity chapters that allow gay relationships, or even gay clergy. Religion needs to evolve along with society, its only core belief that stays the same is higher authority.

 

[dimmidice]

I think you're speaking about your own religion. as in the parts of christianity you like and believe in. you're ignoring a lot of the bad aspects of christianity IMO. like how people tend to only use religions to reinforce their own opinions and beliefs instead of learning from the books. how people to tend to become sheep about the whole thing.
you say the bible isn't meant to be taken literally. is this an official stance by the church? because if so the followers of the church should start doing that. there are too many people who do take it literally (but of course only the bits they agree with)

is the bible as a whole bad? of course not. i don't remember much from bible class but what i do remember i found interesting. in the same way i find a fantasy novel interesting. there's definitely some good in it. but it's far outweighed by the bad it causes. and it doesn't offer anything that you need to be religious for. the discussion we're having isn't about the bible, it's about religion as a whole. and i agree that most religions do more bad than good.

 

[Foxi4]

I think you're speaking about your own religion. as in the parts of christianity you like and believe in. you're ignoring a lot of the bad aspects of christianity IMO. like how people tend to only use religions to reinforce their own opinions and beliefs instead of learning from the books. how people to tend to become sheep about the whole thing.
you say the bible isn't meant to be taken literally. is this an official stance by the church? because if so the followers of the church should start doing that. there are too many people who do take it literally (but of course only the bits they agree with)

is the bible as a whole bad? of course not. i don't remember much from bible class but what i do remember i found interesting. in the same way i find a fantasy novel interesting. there's definitely some good in it. but it's far outweighed by the bad it causes. and it doesn't offer anything that you need to be religious for. the discussion we're having isn't about the bible, it's about religion as a whole. and i agree that most religions do more bad than good.

You are correct - religion is open to interpretation and interpretation is a two-edged sword. It can be used for evil, like with ISIS or the crusades, it can be used for good, by religious charities helping the less fortunate, or even just by binding communities together in times of need. To show another example, think of John Paul the II - he played a pivotal role in the liberation of my country, his position as the Pope strengthened people's spirits and with faith on one shoulder and banners in arms, eventually, my country was liberated from the U.S.S.R's influence. Again, like ideology, religion is merely a tool - it's not good or evil by definition, it's the implementation that can be good or evil. This is why having an educated populace is important - it prevents using ideas as shields in order to gain political influence, power or wealth. Religion should be a source of inner strength, the will to self-improve and face even impossible odds, not as an excuse to hate. I know I'm sounding terribly metaphysical which is very much unlike me, but I have a strong tendency to believe that people have a degree of innate goodness. Whatever they do, they believe to be good for whatever reason - nobody fancies themselves a villian, that's a sign of insanity. People do things because they believe they will bring some form of benefit, to themselves or to others. Now, the problem is steering that drive towards a mutual greater good, and that's a challenge for which many disciplines need to meet. Regarding your question about what Christians are supposed to follow, the Bible explicitly states that by "loving God", meaning believing in higher authority, and "loving thy neighbour", meaning treating others with the same respect you would expect for yourself, you fulfill all of the other commandments. That's two things Christians need to do in order to be in-line with their faith, everything else is a matter for personal consideration and pondering, with the Old Testament not being relevant at all.