Hacking WTH: SLC NAND, NAND Saving, AP?

[kyogre123]

Yay, thanks for clarifying the confusion between the chip of Animal Crossing and Pokémon. Knowing this, I'm not sure how Gateway could make any of these Card2 games to work.

 

[TheDreamLord]

He's talking rubbish and just guessing.

NONE of the storage on the card apart from a SEPARATE chip is writable.

Trying to control my laughter here at the mere thought that someone thinks that game cartridges are re-writable but have a "hard coded" something or other stopping the game data being written to.

You're the guy who was saying I was BSing and Kingston SDs broke my Gateway, aren't you?

*sighs* This guy has done a lot of work over on 3dbrew, made the ROM trimmer AND made the icon extractor. He knows what he's saying, and even if he didn't, he'd still know more than you do.

 

[Cyan]

You shouldn't use the "ROM" acronym when you are talking about the "Game data" part.
ROM means Read Only Memory, telling that the chipset has a value to prevent overwriting part of a ROM is contradictory.
I understand that people use "ROM" to talk about the dumped game's data/file, but it's better to use the correct words to prevent even more confusions.

If the chipset is a Single-Level Cell NAND, it's not a ROM if it's writable.
using the term "NAND Saving" is then correct if the save is actually written to the SLC NAND, right?

 

[3DSGuy]

You shouldn't use the "ROM" acronym when you are talking about the "Game data" part.
ROM means Read Only Memory, telling that the chipset has a value to prevent overwriting part of a ROM is contradictory.
I understand that people use "ROM" to talk about the dumped game's data/file, but it's better to use the correct words to prevent even more confusions.

If the chipset is a Single-Level Cell NAND, it's not a ROM if it's writable.
using the term "NAND Saving" is then correct if the save is actually written to the SLC NAND, right?

You are right about the contradiction, and it's been bothering me since I posted. I had various reasons for using the term "ROM" mainly because people don't know what a CCI is, but now I see I need to clarify.

 

[robo989]

You're the guy who was saying I was BSing and Kingston SDs broke my Gateway, aren't you?

*sighs* This guy has done a lot of work over on 3dbrew, made the ROM trimmer AND made the icon extractor. He knows what he's saying, and even if he didn't, he'd still know more than you do.

What are you, like 5 years old or something? That's such a ridiculous point to make and has no relevance at all. I'm not claiming to "know" anything here. His explanation holds as much water as a bucket with no bottom.

Anyone could knock up a ROM trimmer, (not to discredit that as it's a generous effort to make one and appreciated by many), but on a technical level, it doesn't give credibility on any level to one's technical knowledge. Icon extractor...could go either way, depends if the person used knowledge others had researched or worked it out himself. Depending on that the person either gains massive credibility, or gains none.

In terms of actual explanation, he's got his nationality set as Australian so can assume he's native english speaker.

Using the word "ROM" as pointed out by Cyan, is not a term used by someone who has the faintest idea of what he is talking about, within the context of being able to write to it. He is suggesting that the 3DS carts aren't ROM chips at all but some kind of writable flash ROM. When you're talking about a maximum 8GB or so for a 3DS cart, the cost involved would make this unfeasible to use flash ROM. Then to suggest that the cartridges have been hard coded to stop certain offset ranges being written to...well...I'm sorry but that is not the talk of someone who has a clue, on these points.

Being slightly informed on one area of something, doesn't give automatic remit to be taken seriously on everything.

I have no idea if he's drastically watered down the explanation for the non technically minded, but regardless, even if that is the case, it's still incorrect. You don't need to know much at all to know that, so it brings his whole credibility (not kindness) into question.

Am I trolling? No, it might be common vibe here to just go with the tide and accept all explanations and so forth as being helpful, that's an apologist attitude.

Who gives a damn if I was wrong about your Kingston SD card - that is a ridiculous thing to refer to again, because you're making it personal. What I and a few others posted in your SD card thread was correct on a general level - Can't be right all the time - but been right enough times on those matters to draw an informed conclusion without needing full facts of the matter.

You having a go at me is akin to shooting the messenger.

 

[Arras]

What are you, like 5 years old or something? That's such a ridiculous point to make and has no relevance at all. I'm not claiming to "know" anything here. His explanation holds as much water as a bucket with no bottom.

Anyone could knock up a ROM trimmer, (not to discredit that as it's a generous effort to make one and appreciated by many), but on a technical level, it doesn't give credibility on any level to one's technical knowledge. Icon extractor...could go either way, depends if the person used knowledge others had researched or worked it out himself. Depending on that the person either gains massive credibility, or gains none.

In terms of actual explanation, he's got his nationality set as Australian so can assume he's native english speaker.

Using the word "ROM" as pointed out by Cyan, is not a term used by someone who has the faintest idea of what he is talking about.

Am I trolling? No, it might be common vibe here to just go with the tide and accept all explanations and so forth as being helpful, that's an apologist attitude.

Who gives a damn if I was wrong about your Kingston SD card - that is a ridiculous thing to refer to again, because you're making it personal. What I and a few others posted in your SD card thread was correct on a general level - Can't be right all the time - but been right enough times on those matters to draw an informed conclusion without needing full facts of the matter.

You having a go at me is akin to shooting the messenger.

If the ROM thing is the main problem you have, he did that because game dumps are commonly referred to as ROMs.

 

[robo989]

If the ROM thing is the main problem you have, he did that because game dumps are commonly referred to as ROMs.

That's fine, it's standard to refer to a ROM dump as a ROM. It is correct, calling the storage on a 3DS cart "ROM" then saying it's writable in the same sentence, is not something a technically minded person would say. It's something a speculating noob would say.

Sorry but I'm all for new information, but this is speculation, not fact and should be labelled as such!

Look, it's just not technically feasible that Nintendo are churning out 4GB+ flash ROM cartridges (with 8GB within spec), the mere use of such a thing is a recipe for disaster, expense and just completely not needed. It would be cheaper, and more reliable to have separate chips for save data.

It's not even debatable.

 

[Huntereb]

Worthless information for the end-users, but a nice read. At least more people now know why we're having issues with newer games, and not just the OP and the Gateway Team.

 

[3DSGuy]

What are you, like 5 years old or something? That's such a ridiculous point to make and has no relevance at all. I'm not claiming to "know" anything here. His explanation holds as much water as a bucket with no bottom.

Anyone could knock up a ROM trimmer, (not to discredit that as it's a generous effort to make one and appreciated by many), but on a technical level, it doesn't give credibility on any level to one's technical knowledge. Icon extractor...could go either way, depends if the person used knowledge others had researched or worked it out himself. Depending on that the person either gains massive credibility, or gains none.

In terms of actual explanation, he's got his nationality set as Australian so can assume he's native english speaker.

Using the word "ROM" as pointed out by Cyan, is not a term used by someone who has the faintest idea of what he is talking about, within the context of being able to write to it. He is suggesting that the 3DS carts aren't ROM chips at all but some kind of writable flash ROM. When you're talking about a maximum 8GB or so for a 3DS cart, the cost involved would make this unfeasible to use flash ROM. Then to suggest that the cartridges have been hard coded to stop certain offset ranges being written to...well...I'm sorry but that is not the talk of someone who has a clue, on these points.

Being slightly informed on one area of something, doesn't give automatic remit to be taken seriously on everything.

I have no idea if he's drastically watered down the explanation for the non technically minded, but regardless, even if that is the case, it's still incorrect. You don't need to know much at all to know that, so it brings his whole credibility (not kindness) into question.

Am I trolling? No, it might be common vibe here to just go with the tide and accept all explanations and so forth as being helpful, that's an apologist attitude.

Who gives a damn if I was wrong about your Kingston SD card - that is a ridiculous thing to refer to again, because you're making it personal. What I and a few others posted in your SD card thread was correct on a general level - Can't be right all the time - but been right enough times on those matters to draw an informed conclusion without needing full facts of the matter.

You having a go at me is akin to shooting the messenger.

If you are concerned about the reliability of what I'm saying I'll just give it to you straight with the correct terminolgy. CARD2 devices do exist they simply have RO and RW sections. The CCI is written to the RO section, and the savedata is written to the RW section. The boundary of RO and RW can be specified by the developer. The address of the boundary is recorded in the Card Info Header following the NCSD header in the CCI, so the 3DS always knows where the writable region starts.

Why would a developer choose a CARD2 over a CARD1 chip? Because with CARD2 you are not restricted to either a 128KB or 512KB EEPROM for storing savedata. It may not be cheaper, and is probably why most devs have managed to work under the 512KB limit.

You probably want a source for my information because it is "Just Speculation™", too bad.

 

[McHaggis]

Kudos, 3DSGuy. I had been wondering about several of the points you raised and now it all suddenly makes sense.

I can also verify that Pokemon X/Y are not detected by the R4i Save Dongle and, consequently, my 005tools app for interfacing with the device, just in case this wasn't public knowledge or obvious to everyone yet. I have the eShop version of Animal Crossing and cannot check that, but I assume it's the same. I've reached out to the R4i team (just in case anyone other than me cares).

 

[driverdis]

is the RO section of a CARD2 chip actually RO, or is the whole chip RW and the boundry determines whats RO and RW?
I was wondering if its possible with an external flasher to dump and flash Pokemon X's CARD2 to Pokemon Y's CARD2 for example.
since both games are Identical for the most part and the carts use identical hardware, I do not see why not, unless the CARD2 chip is designed in such a way for it to be impossible to write to the RO section via external means.

If the question sounds a bit noobish, it is as I have no knowledge of the how the CARD2 chip works other than what was posted on this thread.

 

[inuyasha555]

1. AC:NL can't be played on GW. Gateway3DS simply failed at emulating the custom SLC-NAND ROM chip in AC:NL, and perhaps fails at emulating CARD2 savedata access altogether.

I quote from their FAQ posted on the 20th: "- Are you working on nand savegame support for pokemon/animal crossing? Yes, we will have pokemon and animal crossing working for the 2.0 release, we will not stop until we have this working!"

Saying that they failed at emulation is SLC-NAND chip, is this new information you gained from an email, your own thoughts or what?

 

[jastolze]

I quote from their FAQ posted on the 20th: "- Are you working on nand savegame support for pokemon/animal crossing? Yes, we will have pokemon and animal crossing working for the 2.0 release, we will not stop until we have this working!"

Saying that they failed at emulation is SLC-NAND chip, is this new information you gained from an email, your own thoughts or what?

Hey, didn't I know you from the NZP forums? I'm pretty sure that was you. Long time, no hear. What's up?

 

[Duo8]

is the RO section of a CARD2 chip actually RO, or is the whole chip RW and the boundry determines whats RO and RW?
I was wondering if its possible with an external flasher to dump and flash Pokemon X's CARD2 to Pokemon Y's CARD2 for example.
since both games are Identical for the most part and the carts use identical hardware, I do not see why not, unless the CARD2 chip is designed in such a way for it to be impossible to write to the RO section via external means.

If the question sounds a bit noobish, it is as I have no knowledge of the how the CARD2 chip works other than what was posted on this thread.

The whole thing is RW.

I quote from their FAQ posted on the 20th: "- Are you working on nand savegame support for pokemon/animal crossing? Yes, we will have pokemon and animal crossing working for the 2.0 release, we will not stop until we have this working!"

Saying that they failed at emulation is SLC-NAND chip, is this new information you gained from an email, your own thoughts or what?

So? It didn't work before. Now they fix it (add NAND save support).

 

[3DSGuy]

is the RO section of a CARD2 chip actually RO, or is the whole chip RW and the boundry determines whats RO and RW?
I was wondering if its possible with an external flasher to dump and flash Pokemon X's CARD2 to Pokemon Y's CARD2 for example.
since both games are Identical for the most part and the carts use identical hardware, I do not see why not, unless the CARD2 chip is designed in such a way for it to be impossible to write to the RO section via external means.

If the question sounds a bit noobish, it is as I have no knowledge of the how the CARD2 chip works other than what was posted on this thread.

I haven't personally tested it, but Nintendo is pretty explicit with there being a RO and RW section.

 

[3DSGuy]

I quote from their FAQ posted on the 20th: "- Are you working on nand savegame support for pokemon/animal crossing? Yes, we will have pokemon and animal crossing working for the 2.0 release, we will not stop until we have this working!"

Saying that they failed at emulation is SLC-NAND chip, is this new information you gained from an email, your own thoughts or what?

That was partly speculation, I have since re-worded that section. And GW obviously don't have a copy of the SDK, or a physical copy of Pokémon X/Y, otherwise they wouldn't have said Pokemon used nand saving. Though admittedly, there would be no difference between SLC-NAND and a normal CARD2 from the 3DS' perspective ignoring the read/write speed difference. So when they say nand saving they mean CARD2 chips, but they choose "nand saving" because you guys called it "nand saving".

 

[3DSGuy]

The whole thing is RW.

No, it has two regions RO/RW. The CTR Cart Image is written to the RO part at factory, and the 3DS saves the savedata to the RW region,

 

[Duo8]

No, it has two regions RO/RW. The CTR Cart Image is written to the RO part at factory, and the 3DS saves the savedata to the RW region,

I meant the chip. It's RW, right? (Ignoring the "hard-coded" write prevention).

 

[3DSGuy]

I meant the chip. It's RW, right? (Ignoring the "hard-coded" write prevention).

Nintendo is very explicit that the chip is physically made up of RO and RW sections.

 

[how_do_i_do_that]

Nintendo is very explicit that the chip is physically made up of RO and RW sections.

It is just a partition flag that sets it as RO. Other than that the entire NAND is RW with partition tools.