Hacking Gamecube iso's

[Maxternal]

I think his point is that what makes Nintendo game disks unreadable by a normal computer drive is on a much lower level than the partitioning and the file system used. It has to do with how information is organized within each sector on the disk and he's saying THAT part is the same for both GC and Wii disks and if that's true, there should be no problem getting a Family Wii or a Wii U drive to accept and verify a GC disk as long as you can get around the size issue (which is what some have hoped one of these size adapters would do.)

 

[Rydian]

That explains why there was one or two PC DVD drive models that could read Wii discs.

 

[Maxternal]

You know, if Nintendo were to release GameCube Virtual Console and implement it by incorporating a Devolution-esque virtual machine into a system update and converting existing GameCube games to downloadable content ... assuming the Wii U drive is actually capable of reading GC disks' physical format they could also add the ability for that addition to the system software to read from disks and patent or buy a patent for a similar disk size adapter or and sell it separately as a "GameCube compatibility kit". If they were to also make a Wii port in the form of a channel, they could add it on a Wii disk in the package to be used with family model Wii's and Wii Mini's ... or even from vWii.

They would never do it ... but it sounds reasonable to me.

 

[buckchow]

Alright, I still don't have a Wii U to test with, but I now have a Family edition Wii to test the 3-inch disc adapter with, and it does make GC games work. Popped in Sonic Heroes, the disc was detected normally, and the game's demo loop has been running for 30 minutes. No strange sounds from the drive or anything. It just seems to work.

And no, since I haven't rigged any controller ports into the system, I can't actually play the game. I'm tempted to add a controller port in now though.

Hopefully this successful Family edition test encourages someone with a Wii U to test a disc adapter. There's been a lot of negativity and misinformation surrounding the Family edition's ability to read GC discs since that Wii model was released, so it would be nice to find out if the Wii U's vWii mode supports GC discs before the same type of misinformation leads people to believe it's impossible when it simply hasn't been tested yet.

 

[Rydian]

People only mentioned reading the discs because it's the first and most obvious functional barrier. What people actually want is to play the games, which is also going to require, at the minimum, soldering a controller port and memory card port. So if the options are...

A - Buy an original-style Wii model with GC BC.

B - Buy a family-model Wii, buy a drive adapter, solder a controller port and memory card port.

B is obviously a worse choice than A as far as reaching the target goal (fully-functional gameplay).

 

[winmaster]

People only mentioned reading the discs because it's the first and most obvious functional barrier. What people actually want is to play the games, which is also going to require, at the minimum, soldering a controller port and memory card port. So if the options are...

A - Buy an original-style Wii model with GC BC.

B - Buy a family-model Wii, buy a drive adapter, solder a controller port and memory card port.

B is obviously a worse choice than A as far as reaching the target goal (fully-functional gameplay).

Of course, there's always option C: Devolution. If the Family Edition Wii can read GCN discs (as many of us thought it would with the adapter), then the whole anti-piracy thing isn't going to be a problem. Only classic controller support needs to be implemented for it to work.

 

[Rydian]

Yeah, I just rarely consider stuff that doesn't work yet as an option when making suggestions.

 

[Nintendo Maniac]

Alright, I still don't have a Wii U to test with, but I now have a Family edition Wii to test the 3-inch disc adapter with, and it does make GC games work. Popped in Sonic Heroes, the disc was detected normally, and the game's demo loop has been running for 30 minutes. No strange sounds from the drive or anything. It just seems to work.

Just to clarify, the Family Wii in question couldn't read the GameCube disc by itself, correct? I've read that some systems can actually still read GameCube discs but just don't have any way to control the game.

 

[buckchow]

Just to clarify, the Family Wii in question couldn't read the GameCube disc by itself, correct? I've read that some systems can actually still read GameCube discs but just don't have any way to control the game.

This time around, I only tested using the adapter. As you said, there's no way to control it, at least not without modifying the system. I had read several times before about the Family Wii's drive getting upset when GC discs are put into it directly (without an adapter), so I didn't try that in order to avoid damaging any discs, the Wii, or both.

I would like to do a side-by-side comparison to see exactly what hardware is missing on the drive to prevent the GC disc from loading without an adapter. If they look identical, it may mean that some Family Wii systems have older (standard Wii) drives that can still load and read GC discs before another more stripped-down drive came along. I don't know enough about the history of all the different Wii drive models/designs to know if this is a possibility. If they're different, I'll take a picture or two and consider it another promising sign that the Wii U drive may be able to read GC discs with adapters.

It also may be possible to manually load adapterless GC discs into the Family Wii's drive with its lid unscrewed, so that's something else I might test soon.

 

[Maxternal]

I had read several times before about the Family Wii's drive getting upset when GC discs are put into it directly (without an adapter), so I didn't try that in order to avoid damaging any discs, the Wii, or both.

My neighbor has a family Wii and his just spits the disks out again. I'm sure all it lacks it some mechanical parts to center the smaller disk over the motor but it doesn't damage anything to try. I think the reason he's asking is because there are SOME family Wiis that they must have just been getting rid of the last few old drives or something because they still accept the GC disk just fine so it was just to make sure it was really a drive that was not meant to play them by themselves.

 

[Nintendo Maniac]

Err, AFAIK people have already have tested it - supposedly the disc drive just "pushes it out" similarly to when it's being ejected. The issue at hand is to see if your Family Wii is one of those systems or if it's one that could accept and read the disc by itself.

EDIT: Yeah, what Maxternal said.

 

[buckchow]

Err, AFAIK people have already have tested it - supposedly the disc drive just "pushes it out" similarly to when it's being ejected. The issue at hand is to see if your Family Wii is one of those systems or if it's one that could accept and read the disc by itself.

I know it has been tested without an adapter. That was one of the first things I mentioned. I had just heard that the drive makes bad noises and was trying to be cautious.

I just tested mine now and can report three things:
1) The drive cannot load the GC disc without the adapter. The disc is automatically ejected after several seconds.
2) The GC disc is centered when it is ejected regardless of how it goes into the drive, so some of the mechanical stuff for handling GC discs may still be present.
3) The motor for pulling the disc in does sound like it's struggling after the GC disc gets inside and before the auto-eject occurs. It's not terribly loud or anything, but it's not a particularly healthy sound either, so I don't plan to test this again.

Hope that helps. If I have time tonight, I'll open it up again check out the other things I mentioned earlier.

 

[Nintendo Maniac]

Hope that helps.

It very much does. You basically single-handedly confirmed that the Family Wii can indeed read and run GameCube games - just not mini-DVD sized discs. Controlling is another issue, but that's what a future version of Devolution is for no? (saving can already be done by devolution)

You know, there's supposedly some basic support for a USB keyboard in Devolution...I never could get it to work but if you somehow could then that'd be something to spread news about.

Speaking of which, it may be relevent to actually contact tueidj (the creator of devolution) directly via the WiiBrew PM system and inform him about this Family Wii disc-compatibility that you have discovered via:
http://forum.wiibrew.org/profile.php?25,4302

 

[buckchow]

...it may be relevent to actually contact tueidj (the creator of devolution) directly via the WiiBrew PM system and inform him about this Family Wii disc-compatibility that you have discovered via:
http://forum.wiibrew.org/profile.php?25,4302

Done, thanks for the link and suggestion.

 

[buckchow]

For anyone interested, here's what I found when comparing the standard and family-edition Wii drives.

This is the underside of the drive lid from a standard Wii from 2006/2007:

Here's the same thing on a Family Wii:

The only meaningful difference is the extra bit of metal in the green circle. This stops GC discs from getting as far as they need to in the drive. It also ensures that GC discs don't get away from the roller at the front of the drive so they can be ejected.

This is a white plastic piece in the top-right corner of a standard Wii's drive (with the lid off):

This is the same thing in a Family Wii:

When this piece of plastic is moved in response to a disc being inserted a certain amount, the drive latches the disc down onto the spindle motor. The Family Wii has basically removed the section of solid plastic necessary for this latching to occur with GC discs. When a GC disc is inserted, the roller at the front keeps trying to push the disc forward, but the metal bit from before indirectly holds it back and the disc isn't getting latched. After several seconds of the disc not getting latched, the drive ejects, tries to re-load the disc, then ejects and gives up.

Now the fun part!

Here's the extra metal bit from earlier bent back to match the standard Wii:

Same thing, different angle (and there's plenty of clearance, so leaving it like this is fine):

Finally, the Family Wii's plastic piece modified to approximate the standard Wii's design:

I used a razor and glue gun to modify the plastic. It's probably a lot easier to just melt the plastic or use other proper cutting tools that I don't have. Don't try this at home if you value the life of your Wii.

After this, the Family edition Wii loads GC discs without an adapter. Hooray! Maybe a similar modification will be possible for the Wii U if its drive turns out to be able to read GC discs with an adapter.

 

[Maxternal]

Wow, so ninty really cheaped out on this one. Since taking out a few plugs couldn't have saved them that much money I just assumed that the drive modification was more extensive but it sounds like they saved less on the drive than they did on the plugs. Maybe there's some subtle extra expense involved in the manufacturing process but at first glance this doesn't seem like that much of a benefit and not worth the redesign process.

 

[buckchow]

...this doesn't seem like that much of a benefit and not worth the redesign process.

Considering how little was actually redesigned, both with the case and guts of the system, I'm assuming the cost and effort was minimal and this was more to ease people into the removal of built-in GC support for Wii U. Nintendo seems to like cutting out backwards compatibility late in a system's life since they also did it with the GB Micro and DSi.

 

[Nintendo Maniac]

After this, the Family edition Wii loads GC discs without an adapter. Hooray! Maybe a similar modification will be possible for the Wii U if its drive turns out to be able to read GC discs with an adapter.

Again, assuming you're in contact with tueidj and he as acknowledged you be replying, this may be something that should be shared with him (unless you already have).

 

[McHaggis]

Considering how little was actually redesigned, both with the case and guts of the system, I'm assuming the cost and effort was minimal and this was more to ease people into the removal of built-in GC support for Wii U. Nintendo seems to like cutting out backwards compatibility late in a system's life since they also did it with the GB Micro and DSi.

To me, it seems like it would have been more cost efficient to use software to eject the disc if it detected a GC game, it's the kind of thing that could have been very easily implemented. Actually redesigning hardware to disallow the disks seems like it would be more expensive because you're asking an external company (the drive manufacturer) to do all the work.

On the other hand, it could be that the Wii U drive was designed this way first and then these bits of metal and plastic were applied to drives for the new family Wii. This would actually align with your theory that the decision to remove support on the Wii was part of the Wii U development process. I could understand using a hardware redesign for the Wii U since potential hacks bypassing software restrictions could potentially affect any business decision to offer GC Virtual Console games for download.

 

[buckchow]

To me, it seems like it would have been more cost efficient to use software to eject the disc if it detected a GC game

I agree, it seems that way. However, it also seems like Nintendo was determined to keep their software maintenance from becoming fragmented by running the same Wii operating system on the standard Wii, family Wii, and Wii U. So, maybe Nintendo determined that a couple of tiny drive modifications cost less.

On the other hand, it could be that the Wii U drive was designed this way first and then these bits of metal and plastic were applied to drives for the new family Wii.

I just found a couple pictures of the inside of the Wii U drive at this site that I hadn't come across before. It doesn't look like the Family Wii drive's changes carried over to the Wii U.

Where the extra piece of metal was in the Family Wii, the Wii U has changed to a design more similar to the standard Wii. That difference may be related to the horrible sounds the Wii U makes when GC discs are inserted as shown in this video.

The difference in the metal also means that if there's a similar plastic piece in the Wii U drive to the Wii one (and there should be since the parts related to it are visible on the Wii U drive), then a modification to make GC discs load without bending any metal should be possible. Of course, the plastic modification would be more complicated than bending metal, so it wouldn't help too much.