Homebrew RetroArch - A new multi-system emulator

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I think older TVs "bleed" the pixels together, making it look like a filter without actually being one.

I just realized that you might have not been talking about "color" bleed at all. Or maybe you were.....I don't know. But here's a link to something that might interest you. http://nfgworld.com/mb/thread/660-A...;?unb507sess=c64465bd3ffd8f204910216cb17e44a5

WARNING: This article "may seem" to be a bit misleading, but its not. What I mean is, the games were designed to be viewed on a 4:3 CRT, and were never meant to be viewed in their native aspect ratio (8:7 on a SNES for example). The reason for the 256 horizontal image was to conserve power for the most part, and the 8:7 ratio was MEANT to be stretched. This is why when some games are viewed at 8:7, circles look oval and squares look like rectangles, and thus, 8:7 is not correct. The game developer always used a standard NTSC Television when deciding if the final output looked correct. PLUS, the way a CRT displays images results in a "anti-aliasing" effect, which the game developers depended on heavily so that the jagged edges would be smooth (alot of LCD fanboys criticize CRT techology for this "anti-aliasing" or "fudging" effect, claiming that LCD can display "razor" sharp images. But "razer" sharpness not only ruins retro games, but it also can negatively affect movies too, as it "over" sharpens too much, such as human skin. Since when are pores and wrinkles suppose to be as sharp as a razer-blade? Thus one of many reasons why alot of people prefer Plasma (less sharp), or why others cling to their Sony XBR High Definition 1080i CRT's. Much more realistic for movies, and no motion blur!).

This article that I linked - if not read carefully - seems to indicate that stretching a 256 horizontal image was a flaw, but it was actually what the developer intended to happen. As the article says "Arcade games, consoles and even computers often took advantage of this, and created a RAM- and CPU-friendly smaller image that would be stretched out to fill the screen with no more effort than a tweak of the synchronization signals"..

Anyway, I just wanted to clear that up because I too was confused at first when I learned about this, until a did a little more research and found out that when you see these old games on a CRT, then you are seeing what the developer wanted to be seen, and that these games were NEVER meant to be viewed in their raw, naked format. This gives us even MORE of a reason to get these Wii emulators perfected, because neither the PS3, nor the Xbox 360 are 240p capable, and NO HDTV will ever show these games correctly in any format/filter. But the Wii IS 240p capable, thus these games will look right if emulated on a CRT in their "Original" display mode! So lets give the Wii the love it deserves!
 
I just realized that you might have not been talking about "color" bleed at all. Or maybe you were.....I don't know. But here's a link to something that might interest you. http://nfgworld.com/mb/thread/660-A...;?unb507sess=c64465bd3ffd8f204910216cb17e44a5

WARNING: This article "may seem" to be a bit misleading, but its not. What I mean is, the games were designed to be viewed on a 4:3 CRT, and were never meant to be viewed in their native aspect ratio (8:7 on a SNES for example). The reason for the 256 horizontal image was to conserve power for the most part, and the 8:7 ratio was MEANT to be stretched. This is why when some games are viewed at 8:7, circles look oval and squares look like rectangles, and thus, 8:7 is not correct. The game developer always used a standard NTSC Television when deciding if the final output looked correct. PLUS, the way a CRT displays images results in a "anti-aliasing" effect, which the game developers depended on heavily so that the jagged edges would be smooth (alot of LCD fanboys criticize CRT techology for this "anti-aliasing" or "fudging" effect, claiming that LCD can display "razor" sharp images. But "razer" sharpness not only ruins retro games, but it also can negatively affect movies too, as it "over" sharpens too much, such as human skin. Since when are pores and wrinkles suppose to be as sharp as a razer-blade? Thus one of many reasons why alot of people prefer Plasma (less sharp), or why others cling to their Sony XBR High Definition 1080i CRT's. Much more realistic for movies, and no motion blur!).

This article that I linked - if not read carefully - seems to indicate that stretching a 256 horizontal image was a flaw, but it was actually what the developer intended to happen. As the article says "Arcade games, consoles and even computers often took advantage of this, and created a RAM- and CPU-friendly smaller image that would be stretched out to fill the screen with no more effort than a tweak of the synchronization signals"..

Anyway, I just wanted to clear that up because I too was confused at first when I learned about this, until a did a little more research and found out that when you see these old games on a CRT, then you are seeing what the developer wanted to be seen, and that these games were NEVER meant to be viewed in their raw, naked format. This gives us even MORE of a reason to get these Wii emulators perfected, because neither the PS3, nor the Xbox 360 are 240p capable, and NO HDTV will ever show these games correctly in any format/filter. But the Wii IS 240p capable, thus these games will look right if emulated on a CRT in their "Original" display mode! So lets give the Wii the love it deserves!

That makes more sense as to why it behaves that way. The filters the emulator provides is close, but nothing can perfectly simulate the look and feel of a CRT.
 
That makes more sense as to why it behaves that way. The filters the emulator provides is close, but nothing can perfectly simulate the look and feel of a CRT.

Exactly. That's why 240p mode is VERY important for these Wii emulators. With 240p (or 224p, 239p) these emulators look EXACTLY like the original if used on a CRT, heck even better because the Wii's Composite output has less dot-crawl and color bleed than the original hardware.
 
LibretroRetroArc

Whats the difference between Wii and XBOX in VBA core? Coz it works much better on Wii while other cores works better on XBOX.

Wii is simply faster than the Xbox 1. Either that, or the 2003 MSVC compiler just really sucks in comparison to a relatively modern version of GCC (that is provided by devkitpro - which, BTW, is turning into a 'business' now or so I read on their official site - ::rollseyes).
 
I reported this issue on one of the previous pages.

As of yet I have still not hear you say which version you are using - are you using the first version or the one ToadKing later posted? Because you need the latter regardless.

Anyway,I can't test it - neither me or ToadKing has a CC Pro. 'Gifting' me a CC Pro would mean I could take a look at it. And if you live in the US, you might as well 'gift it' to ToadKing so you can save on shipping costs that way.
 
Wii is simply faster than the Xbox 1. Either that, or the 2003 MSVC compiler just really sucks in comparison to a relatively modern version of GCC (that is provided by devkitpro - which, BTW, is turning into a 'business' now or so I read on their official site - ::rollseyes).

Oh! I tested Nestopia, while I didn't hear any audio sync issues, I did note of a strange anomaly; knowing me it's probably my sensitive hearing, or my weird ability to pinpoint quirks. Is it just me, or does the sampling frequency sound kind of muddied (i.e using 22 KHz vs 32 KHz)? Maybe it's my speakers, but I also noticed that the Konami sound on Snes9x Next has the same thing. Does that make sense? Like, it doesn't sound as "crisp" as it should.
 
As of yet I have still not hear you say which version you are using - are you using the first version or the one ToadKing later posted? Because you need the latter regardless.

Anyway,I can't test it - neither me or ToadKing has a CC Pro. 'Gifting' me a CC Pro would mean I could take a look at it. And if you live in the US, you might as well 'gift it' to ToadKing so you can save on shipping costs that way.

I just tested the latest version that Toad King posted and it still is incorrect. Unfortunately my budget is too thin to gift you guys a CCP, but if you need any help testing I'd be glad to.
 
Oh! I tested Nestopia, while I didn't hear any audio sync issues, I did note of a strange anomaly; knowing me it's probably my sensitive hearing, or my weird ability to pinpoint quirks. Is it just me, or does the sampling frequency sound kind of muddied (i.e using 22 KHz vs 32 KHz)? Maybe it's my speakers, but I also noticed that the Konami sound on Snes9x Next has the same thing. Does that make sense? Like, it doesn't sound as "crisp" as it should.

I mentioned audio issues earlier. Remember that I said I tested both the original NES and Nestopia on the same TV (Input 1 for Wii, Input 2 for NES), both via A/V cable and Nestopia has a higher pitch, kinda scratchy and tinny, and is louder on the left speaker/channel. Whereas FCEUmm sounds virtually EXACTLY like the original NES.

So FCEUmm will have to do for you, for now. (does appear though that Nestopia has a more accurate color palette).
 
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I mentioned audio issues earlier. Remember that I said I tested both the original NES and Nestopia on the same TV (Input 1 for Wii, Input 2 for NES), both via A/V cable and Nestopia has a higher pitch, kinda scratchy and tinny, and is louder on the left speaker/channel. Whereas FCEUmm sounds virtually EXACTLY like the original NES.

So FCEUmm will have to do for you, for now. (does appear though that Nestopia has a more accurate color palette).

Nestopia has pseudo stereo, which I think sounds pretty cool, but that's why the audio sounds different to you. As for whether or not the tinny audio can be fixed, it's a mystery. FCEUmm has audio/video sync issues, but Nestopia runs super smooth on the Wii. Don't like FCEU, there's too much audio crackling. I'll record from the Windows version and post it.
 
Nestopia has pseudo stereo, which I think sounds pretty cool, but that's why the audio sounds different to you. As for whether or not the tinny audio can be fixed, it's a mystery. FCEUmm has audio/video sync issues, but Nestopia runs super smooth on the Wii. Don't like FCEU, there's too much audio crackling.

Does FCEUmm run slow or something? Seems fine to me. Am I missing anything?

And the louder left channel on Nestopia happens with every game I've tested, so its not the game per say, that's for sure. While fake stereo sound is nice and all, its not accurate. I apologize if I sound like an old fart, but I love "accuracy" over "fancy" anyday. Haha.
 
Exactly. That's why 240p mode is VERY important for these Wii emulators. With 240p (or 224p, 239p) these emulators look EXACTLY like the original if used on a CRT, heck even better because the Wii's Composite output has less dot-crawl and color bleed than the original hardware.
I bought a rgb cable just for this purpose. MUCH better than the standard composite. Everybody using a crt should really get one. Games look absolutely awesome withe the low res options in retroarch or any emu that support the consoles native resolution ( important to set this accordingly in retroarchwii ) output.
 
Oh! I tested Nestopia, while I didn't hear any audio sync issues, I did note of a strange anomaly; knowing me it's probably my sensitive hearing, or my weird ability to pinpoint quirks. Is it just me, or does the sampling frequency sound kind of muddied (i.e using 22 KHz vs 32 KHz)? Maybe it's my speakers, but I also noticed that the Konami sound on Snes9x Next has the same thing. Does that make sense? Like, it doesn't sound as "crisp" as it should.
This is a natural result because of the difference sampling frequency, but I agree.
 
Does FCEUmm run slow or something? Seems fine to me. Am I missing anything?

And the louder left channel on Nestopia happens with every game I've tested, so its not the game per say, that's for sure. While fake stereo sound is nice and all, its not accurate. I apologize if I sound like an old fart, but I love "accuracy" over "fancy" anyday. Haha.

FCEU is known for audio/video sync issues, this is a known issue with the emulator itself and not the port. Even on Windows these issues plague the emulator, I like Nestopia because it's not as resource intensive, while being highly accurate. Yes, the stereo is enabled on the Wii port by default, though I doubt adding an option to enable/disable would be that difficult. FCEU also has constant audio popping but it's hard to notice them unless you listen carefully.

Here are some recordings to show the different outputs

Mono
http://www.mediafire.com/?np2ryfaxf9otagt

Stereo
http://www.mediafire.com/?4trqhra7xzdrc5l
 
I bought a rgb cable just for this purpose. MUCH better than the standard composite. Everybody using a crt should really get one. Games look absolutely awesome withe the low res options in retroarch or any emu that support the consoles native resolution ( important to set this accordingly in retroarchwii ) output.

Exactly. If your CRT has Component, use the Wii RGB cables. I've tested the official Wii component cables on standard definition 60" Hitachi (top of the line for 1998) and it looks incredible, scanline glory in RGB. Composite looks good enough, but Component is for sure better. Heck even the Wii-U via Component on that Hitachi looks unbelievable, especially when you consider that its not in HD.
 
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Exactly. If your CRT has Component, use the Wii RGB cables. I've tested the official Wii component cables on standard definition 60" Hitachi (top of the line for 1998) and it looks incredible, scanline glory in RGB. Composite looks good enough, but Component is for sure better. Heck even the Wii-U via Component on that Hitachi looks unbelievable, especially when you consider that its not in HD.


You don't think Libretro would mind if he added the option to disable "stereo" in Nestopia for the Wii, do you? Some people may or may not like it. As for composite, it looks as ugly as sin on newer TVs.

Mono
http://www.mediafire.com/?np2ryfaxf9otagt

Stereo
http://www.mediafire.com/?4trqhra7xzdrc5l
 
Probably because it's stretched to 512 in software first (using integer scaling for clean pixels) before having the video interface stretch it the rest of the way to 640 for the NTSC signal. In 256x224, the video interface stretches it all the way, and probably adds some soft filter to it.
Some snes games used a higher resolution. Also the region of the rom makes a difference. Donley kong country making an exeption acctually as both PAL and NTSC version run at 60 hz.
Easy way to check this is loading a NTSCU rom of recret of mana in 256x224. You'll notice the text will be unreadable.
switch to 512x224 and it will clear up.
 
You don't think Libretro would mind if he added the option to disable "stereo" in Nestopia for the Wii, do you? Some people may or may not like it. As for composite, it looks as ugly as sin on newer TVs.

Mono
http://www.mediafire.com/?np2ryfaxf9otagt

Stereo
http://www.mediafire.com/?4trqhra7xzdrc5l

That's for sure, I hate anything on modern HDTV's thats not using AT LEAST 720p. Heck, I hate many things about the HD era, especially motion blur and input lag, and many more things I could mention that is beyond the scope of this discussion. (and no, RESPONSE TIME HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LAG. - http://shoryuken.com/forum/index.php?threads/the-new-definitive-hdtv-lag-faq.55593/#post-2622391 )

I listed to both of those files, and I most definitely prefer mono. Stereo just sounds...wrong. But that's just me I guess. Is that the Famicom Disk version of Castlevania III? Love the sound of that thing.

As far as LibretroRetroArc adding an option to disable stereo for Nestopia, I have no idea and I'm scared to ask because I know that this guy is already hard at work with probably more than you or I could handle.......and he does it for free I believe......
 
That's for sure, I hate anything on modern HDTV's thats not using AT LEAST 720p. Heck, I hate many things about the HD era, especially motion blur and input lag, and many more things I could mention that is beyond the scope of this discussion.

I listed to both of those files, and I most definitely prefer mono. Stereo just sounds...wrong. But that's just me I guess. Is that the Famicom Disk version of Castlevania III? Love the sound of that thing.

As far as LibretroRetroArc adding an option to disable stereo for Nestopia, I have no idea and I'm scared to ask because I know that this guy is already hard at work with probably more than you or I could handle.......and he does it for free I believe......

Yeah, the Japanese version sounds a lot better thanks to the VRC6 chip. I PMed him about it, but I hope that I, uh, don't get on his wrong side....
 
That's for sure, I hate anything on modern HDTV's thats not using AT LEAST 720p. Heck, I hate many things about the HD era, especially motion blur and input lag, and many more things I could mention that is beyond the scope of this discussion.

I listed to both of those files, and I most definitely prefer mono. Stereo just sounds...wrong. But that's just me I guess. Is that the Famicom Disk version of Castlevania III? Love the sound of that thing.

As far as LibretroRetroArc adding an option to disable stereo for Nestopia, I have no idea and I'm scared to ask because I know that this guy is already hard at work with probably more than you or I could handle.......and he does it for free I believe......
Agreed! Youknow if you like the awesome sound of castevaniaIII .FDS, you could load the japanese version of the Famicom. Akumajō Densetsu.
The japanese famicom acctually only supported this vrc6 soundchip also.
 
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