When is pirating ok? (discussion)

[Issac]

Video games are more a luxury product/hobby than music, literature and movies. (now, I'm using the definition that it does cost more money, not that it's more or less essential).

Many (most) people have a TV: There is always some free channel you can watch (or I'd rather guess so at least) which has information, moving pictures, ads.. movies... It's relatively cheap.
Music, get it free from the radio, spotify...
literature, well... there are always shit to read. But for example, a library... free books.

video games? No... there is some sale every now and then, when it's a bit cheaper. But you need a TV in the first place. And you need an relatively expensive console. sometimes even internet, special controllers and peripherals.

So No one is entitled to gaming. That's just how it is.

I do think everyone is entitled to reading and music. Hence: Library and Radio.

And I'm sure as hell not saying that I don't pirate. Of course I do. But I don't think I am doing right, pirating. I am doing wrong. And I don't think pirating = stealing. Pirating = copying, and I do think that it hurts more than buying used games and I will write why:

A game dumper buys one game, and X amount of people copies it. Just as a fair example, 5000 is NOT an exaggeration.
A gamer buys one game, finishes it or doesn't like it and he sells it to ONE other person. Now that person may sell it and so forth but that chain is way slower and smaller than pirating. Anyone who compares them both are silly.

I am not saying that piracy hurts companies, or that it doesn't hurt... I wouldn't know that for sure, so I can't express anything about that.

Another thing; $60 isn't much money for a game honestly. They are not uncommonly $92 in Sweden by the way.
No, take a relatively big game, battlefield 3 perhaps... How many people are working on that game? around 100? Not impossible. Now how long do they work on it? what are these peoples salaries? and all the employment fees and taxes companies and employees must pay. and they nowadays must get payed in advance, before the game is on sale. and transportation, and production, and advertisement, and somewhere to do their work, and devkits... (And they also aren't doing this for charity either, they want to make some profit as well, not just get even).
And then a video game store? They don't magically have workers appearing, they have salaries. and taxes and fees. Oh wait, they don't get the locale for free either, no they must rent their spot for quite a lot each month. Oh, and they got to advertise their store so people buy there instead of any other place. And again, these also want to make some profit as well, why would they otherwise bother having a store?

Now, is $60 too much to ask, to finance all that? I honestly don't think so. (Can I afford it? nope, not now.)

 

[Just Another Gamer]

Hey look, connecting random things again!

I was correcting people that video games are not a need.

Its not random because you continually pointing out what you think of needs and wants which is why I have no bloody idea why you bring it up in this thread when it is hardly related. It would fit better if the thread was "Is video games a big part of your life" so back to my original point, needs and wants are related to whether pirating is good or bad because?

 

[Shinigami357]

No, that's not a need. That's a natural function, but is not required to live.

You know what else is natural? Sex. Reproduction is programmed into all of us. But you can never have sex in your life, and simply die of old age... so sex is not a need, even though it'd be natural for us to do. Humans will not die from a lack of sex, therefore is it not a need.

Here, since the concept is SO FUCKING HARD, let me name some examples of actual needs.

• Air: Humans need air. When we talk about air, we're talking about the Earth's atmosphere, which contains a certain distribution of oxygen. Oxygen goes into the lungs and then into the blood where it's distributed to the organs and tissues and used for vital metabolic functions. Starved of oxygen intake, a human will die within minutes.
• Vitamin A: "Vitamin" comes from the phrase "vital amino acid", and refers to any series of nutrients that humans need to survive, but cannot produce naturally (and thus must intake from the surroundings). Of note, "Vitamin D" is actually synthesized by the body when exposed to ample amounts of sunlight through the skin, so it's technically not a "vitamin" in the sense of requiring intake, but by the time scientists figured that one out people were calling it a vitamin anyways, so nobody cares enough to change it.
• Shelter from the elements: Humans need to maintain a certain internal body temperature to function. If humans live in too cold or too hot a place without any surroundings to counteract the weather, the internal temperature can rise too high and cause death via heat stroke (like brain damage from chemical reactions involved in the heat), or go too low and cause cessation of certain critical body functions (like blood flow). These things will kill humans, so shelter from the elements is considered a need.

Those are examples of needs. If you are deprived of those, you will die.

Video games are not a need, as millions of humans have gone their entire lives without them, and not died due to causes directly related to a lack of video games.

No we can't, because they live without it.

Something that can extend natural life is not need. Something that is REQUIRED for humans to biologically function is a need.

Under that definition, all 7 billion of us might as well be comatose as of this moment and that would be 'life'. No, sir. I believe you are counting the requirements for BIOLOGICAL EXISTENCE. Just because you exist biologically doesn't mean you're 'living'. This is why I said the idea is subjective.

Being as we're all human, let's keep it at human level, then... Since you did say, everything that is required for 'biological function', then I believe I can argue that keeping one's own self sane is a requirement for biological function. After all, we're humans, we're a product of thousands of years of evolution.

Our mental faculties are tasked with keeping the whole of the being alive. Keeping the mind healthy is an extension of that task, and keeping the mind busy/entertained [people also have different ideas about 'entertainment', so let's not get into that] is essential. Without this, the system quickly shuts down, or worse yet, turns self-destructive. I think we'll agree that self-destructive isn't quite helpful in keeping one alive.

In fact, if one wishes, a person can be trained/conditioned to use need less of the 'essentials'... as long as his mind is working.


---

That said, this is so horribly off-topic as it is. I have already given my view of this as per my first post ['if you don't get caught, then it's ok' according to people] anyway. Cheers.

 

[jimskeet2002]

Yes. A bunch of idiots here and claiming that they "need" video games for entertainment, claiming that entertainment is a "need" and thus they can pirate because they "need" video games as entertainment.

There's two things wrong with that idea.

1 - Video games are not a need (covered). Anybody who thinks they are is a fucking idiot (or simply spoiled rotten) and needs to go back to school. This is along the lines of shit like "The sun turns into the moon at night" and "sand is made out of ground-up babies". This is simply not true, and a distorted world view that should be corrected (as a proper understanding of basic world functions is preferred for interaction in modern society).

2 - Video games and other forms of entertainment that cost money are not the only forms of entertainment. Good old physical play (anything from children's tag to professional football), board games, etc.

Again on that NEED thing? Many surveys has shown that entertainment prolongs life... ENTERTAINMENT IS A FUCKING NEED. Also there are other things that you can survive without them but they still are needs... Want some examples? A house, Clothes, Car, phone, having a bath with shampoo, teeth cleaning, cutting our nails, having sex... Stop equalizing NEEDS to only what is needed to survive... This makes you look stupid and not the fact that games are a need... Which to many of us they are.

 

[Clydefrosch]

pirating is never ok.

just deal with the fact that you do something wrong whenever you pirate anything. its that simple. dont pretend there is a morally justifiable reason. if you dont have the money for videogames, maybe you should look into books.

or save up money. or find a cheaper way to entertain yourself.
because even if we take entertainment to be essential for a comfortable life, videogames (and the newest games at that) are not the only source of entertainment.

 

[dehry]

Video games are more a luxury product/hobby than music, literature and movies. (now, I'm using the definition that it does cost more money, not that it's more or less essential).

Many (most) people have a TV: There is always some free channel you can watch (or I'd rather guess so at least) which has information, moving pictures, ads.. movies... It's relatively cheap.
Music, get it free from the radio, spotify...
literature, well... there are always shit to read. But for example, a library... free books.

video games? No... there is some sale every now and then, when it's a bit cheaper. But you need a TV in the first place. And you need an relatively expensive console. sometimes even internet, special controllers and peripherals.

So No one is entitled to gaming. That's just how it is.

I do think everyone is entitled to reading and music. Hence: Library and Radio.

And I'm sure as hell not saying that I don't pirate. Of course I do. But I don't think I am doing right, pirating. I am doing wrong. And I don't think pirating = stealing. Pirating = copying, and I do think that it hurts more than buying used games and I will write why:

A game dumper buys one game, and X amount of people copies it. Just as a fair example, 5000 is NOT an exaggeration.
A gamer buys one game, finishes it or doesn't like it and he sells it to ONE other person. Now that person may sell it and so forth but that chain is way slower and smaller than pirating. Anyone who compares them both are silly.

I am not saying that piracy hurts companies, or that it doesn't hurt... I wouldn't know that for sure, so I can't express anything about that.

Another thing; $60 isn't much money for a game honestly. They are not uncommonly $92 in Sweden by the way.
No, take a relatively big game, battlefield 3 perhaps... How many people are working on that game? around 100? Not impossible. Now how long do they work on it? what are these peoples salaries? and all the employment fees and taxes companies and employees must pay. and they nowadays must get payed in advance, before the game is on sale. and transportation, and production, and advertisement, and somewhere to do their work, and devkits... (And they also aren't doing this for charity either, they want to make some profit as well, not just get even).
And then a video game store? They don't magically have workers appearing, they have salaries. and taxes and fees. Oh wait, they don't get the locale for free either, no they must rent their spot for quite a lot each month. Oh, and they got to advertise their store so people buy there instead of any other place. And again, these also want to make some profit as well, why would they otherwise bother having a store?

Now, is $60 too much to ask, to finance all that? I honestly don't think so. (Can I afford it? nope, not now.)

Don't use logic here, the skiddies just want ROM NAO.

Honestly, two generations back seems to be just fine for emulation. That means GBA games, PSOne, Anything Sega, and Gamecube are the most recent things you could probably get by saying there is no other way to get the game (although even then some of those games are offered for $5-$10 as a legacy title on the newer consoles. )

Just be honest with yourself when you pirate. Just because it is easy to copy a game, doesn't make it any less illegal. Of that $60. maybe three dollars is going to the cost of printing on a disc, but everything else is the development cost.

 

[jimskeet2002]

Don't use logic here, the skiddies just want ROM NAO.

Honestly, two generations back seems to be just fine for emulation. That means GBA games, PSOne, Anything Sega, and Gamecube are the most recent things you could probably get by saying there is no other way to get the game (although even then some of those games are offered for $5-$10 as a legacy title on the newer consoles. )

Just be honest with yourself when you pirate. Just because it is easy to copy a game, doesn't make it any less illegal. Of that $60. maybe three dollars is going to the cost of printing on a disc, but everything else is the development cost.

Lol no it is not everything else development cost... maybe another 3 dollars is going on development cost... and the rest is pure profit... That is why those companies have billions of dollars profit every year...

 

[Issac]

Just be honest with yourself when you pirate. Just because it is easy to copy a game, doesn't make it any less illegal. Of that $60. maybe three dollars is going to the cost of printing on a disc, but everything else is the development cost.

Actually that depends on the quantity of printed discs (+ casings)... But It's often less than those $3. Its dirt cheap, that part (evened out on all copies).

 

[Rydian]

Its not random

I wasn't saying it's okay or not okay to pirate in general, I was stating that using the "need" as an excuse for piracy is bullshit because it's not a need.

I mean it's like saying that you need blowjobs to survive, and therefor people must give you blowjobs. That doesn't work.

because you continually pointing out what you think of needs and wants

It's not just what I think, it's very clearly defined.
http://frugalliving.about.com/od/frugalliving101/qt/Wants_vs_Needs.htm
http://www.socialstudiesforkids.com/articles/economics/wantsandneeds1.htm

which is why I have no bloody idea why you bring it up in this thread when it is hardly related.

Have you not been reading the thread?

People say it's okay to pirate because they "need" videogames... but that's false, video games are not a need, which is why I'm responding.

 

[Smuff]

I pirate because I can.

End of.

Me too. Also because I want to.

 

[Just Another Gamer]

I wasn't saying it's okay or not okay to pirate in general, I was stating that using the "need" as an excuse for piracy is bullshit because it's not a need.

I mean it's like saying that you need blowjobs to survive, and therefor people must give you blowjobs. That doesn't work.

It's not just what I think, it's very clearly defined.
http://frugalliving.about.com/od/frugalliving101/qt/Wants_vs_Needs.htm
http://www.socialstudiesforkids.com/articles/economics/wantsandneeds1.htm

Have you not been reading the thread?

People say it's okay to pirate because they "need" videogames... but that's false, video games are not a need, which is why I'm responding.

I only see few people use needing games as an excuse for piracy and thats it. So its mostly them not understanding the difference but they won't no matter how much you tell them.

Sorry about that. I personally know the difference before you ranted on and on about it and don't care because I found it unrelated to the topic at hand.

Yes video games aren't a need, that has been established pages back and no one disputes that, I didn't but I just wanted to point out the difference between living and existing per the wants v needs logic but it doesn't change that for me currently my problem is about asses who sit on their high horse and expect people to not pirate because they said so but if you wish so we can have a conversation on needs v wants and its impact on current state of life.

 

[Rydian]

No, sir. I believe you are counting the requirements for BIOLOGICAL EXISTENCE.

Yes, that is what a need is, welcome to the point.

Just because you exist biologically doesn't mean you're 'living'. This is why I said the idea is subjective.

"Living" and "personally enjoying your life" are two separate things. Phrases like "really living" are hyperbole, not fact. There is no "Life++" state.

Being as we're all human, let's keep it at human level, then... Since you did say, everything that is required for 'biological function', then I believe I can argue that keeping one's own self sane is a requirement for biological function. After all, we're humans, we're a product of thousands of years of evolution.

Do you know why we have insane asylums? To contain insane people. Now, if insane people weren't alive, why would we contain them in facilities and try to treat them, opposed to just burying them in the ground (or cremating them) like the usual cadavers?

Our mental faculties are tasked with keeping the whole of the being alive. Keeping the mind healthy is an extension of that task, and keeping the mind busy/entertained [people also have different ideas about 'entertainment', so let's not get into that] is essential. Without this, the system quickly shuts down, or worse yet, turns self-destructive. I think we'll agree that self-destructive isn't quite helpful in keeping one alive.

So it's not just science you slept through, but history as well?

I repeat: Humans have survived without entertainment and video games for millions of years. Your theories are wrong when applied to this situation because if what you're saying is true, then humans would not be able to live and function without video games.

However humans can live just fine without them, so you're obviously wrong.

 

[Shinigami357]

Just a note... Since I think this thread's devolved too far to rescue it any more... Is it me, or did the title slightly influence how this whole shebang turned into what it is now?

As you can see, it asks 'when' is pirating ok. There's like a slight air of 'piracy is ok under certain situations' to it. Well, one can see how proponents of this idea are defending thus far. I've read other threads about piracy before, with differently worded titles, and given that most of them had a title that either condemns or tries to stay neutral, the majority in those seemed to be slightly more anti in general stance [there are still pros, of course].

It seems fascinating when you think about it...

 

[JoostinOnline]

There is no "Life++" state.

Actually there is, but it's only unlocked after beating Life on hard difficulty.

 

[Rydian]

ENTERTAINMENT IS A FUCKING NEED.

Do us all a favor and start school over.

These four year olds are learning more than you about the subject, for the love of god!

Also there are other things that you can survive without them but they still are needs...

Jesus fucking christ...

A need is something you cannot survive without.

Therefore if you can survive without something, that something is not a need.

 

[Shinigami357]

Yes, that is what a need is, welcome to the point.

"Living" and "personally enjoying your life" are two separate things. Phrases like "really living" are hyperbole, not fact. There is no "Life++" state.

Do you know why we have insane asylums? To contain insane people. Now, if insane people weren't alive, why would we contain them in facilities and try to treat them, opposed to just burying them in the ground (or cremating them) like the usual cadavers?

So it's not just science you slept through, but history as well?

I repeat: Humans have survived without entertainment and video games for millions of years. Your theories are wrong when applied to this situation because if what you're saying is true, then humans would not be able to live and function without video games.

However humans can live just fine without them, so you're obviously wrong.

Sorry. This is prob my last post here, since I think this'll go the way of the EOF soon.

About the asylum thing... Those exist specifically to help heal people whose minds have broken down. Perhaps it is you whose skipped history, because in the Medieval ages, crazy people [or even people with slight issues] were usually relegated to the local witch roast. Modern science recognizes that sanity, and therefore mental health, is a NEED for humans. If you want, you can argue that with your resident psychologist and you'll lose every time.


Also, on the idea that 'humans have survived without entertainment for years'. Really? Didn't the earliest cave men draw shit on the cave walls? Weren't earlier people dreaming up the stories that we all read until now? [i.e. one of the oldest pieces of literature is the illiad, and that was before Christ was born, IIRC]


Also, I never said we needed video games [God help me, go and check]. I said the mind needs entertainment to be sustained.


Anyway...

This discussion just happened to be my pet peeve. Believe me, I've seen people hooked to life assistance. That is not life. Life is being able to use your body, as evolution [or God, depends on your beliefs] gave it to you. If simply eating, breathing and shitting while we all wither away is life, something is terribly wrong with all of us.

I'm telling you, you've seriously got to get a broader view on this. There is a facet of life that exceeds simple existence, though you might dismiss that as BS.


---

That's me outta this thread. Peace.

 

[jimskeet2002]

I wasn't saying it's okay or not okay to pirate in general, I was stating that using the "need" as an excuse for piracy is bullshit because it's not a need.

I mean it's like saying that you need blowjobs to survive, and therefor people must give you blowjobs. That doesn't work.

It's not just what I think, it's very clearly defined.
http://frugalliving.about.com/od/frugalliving101/qt/Wants_vs_Needs.htm
http://www.socialstudiesforkids.com/articles/economics/wantsandneeds1.htm

Have you not been reading the thread?

People say it's okay to pirate because they "need" videogames... but that's false, video games are not a need, which is why I'm responding.

Yeah cause what ever PEOPLE write on internet websites like about.com is always true....

 

[jimskeet2002]

Do us all a favor and start school over.

These four year olds are learning more than you about the subject, for the love of god!



Jesus fucking christ...

A need is something you cannot survive without.

Therefore if you can survive without something, that something is not a need.

So a house or clothes or sex etc are not needs right? Since you can survive without them... Humans did it for thousands of years... If they didn't we wouldn't be here today seeing how idiot you can really be. this is my last post here... I feel like I am talking to kid....

EDIT: And stop googling what ever you don't know and post here the first url you find....
EDIT 2: And even that fcking teacher asks the kids what do you need to live a good life... and one of them says a pet and the teacher tells them to circle it... At least watch what you post here first... IDIOT

 

[koimayeul]

Critical condition! Quick, stream to the cortex, mario bros gameplay, HURRY!!

 

[Issac]

Yeah cause what ever PEOPLE write on internet websites like about.com is always true....

Says the guy linking to greek propaganda pages as fact