Hardware Why the Pica 200?

[person66]

Considering that Nintendo and third party developers have squeezed amazing results out of past hardware, and looking at the early demos on the 3DS, I'm perfectly happy with the "potential" of the new handheld. Numbers are fun for those who are into hardware specs, but for me, the proof is in the actual games.

Some developers make crappy looking games, regardless of the system's power. Then there's companies who defy the system's specs, and make a game that seems like it belongs on a more powerful system. For me, this was Resident Evil 4 on GameCube.

I don't know anything about these chips, or the tech jargon associated with it. Nor do I care to compare 3DS to the PSP, since I already prefer my DS Lite over my PSP, simply because the games are more entertaining to me. I'm guilty of this premature guessing game that everyone's playing with the 3DS, but in the end, we're all going to have to just wait and see for ourselves. I have a positive feeling we won't be disappointed.

True, but I wonder how long they can go until they reach it's limit. Hopefully the next installment (3DS Lite?) will have a newer version of the chip.

And before you start bashing me, I know it might be the one from 2008, but 2 years in graphics times is huge.

2 years in graphics time may be huge, but the ps3 and wii were released in 2006, and they're doing fine. The 360 was released in 2005, all those systems can still run games better than most basic PC's today. I know those are home consoles, but all im saying that just because a chip is old, doesn't mean its bad.

Also, @DiscostewSM: I'm sure the DS Phat had an adjustable backlight, didn't it?

 

[granville]

The DS Phat had two levels of backlight, i think on and off. Lite has 4 levels of varying brightness. Much more diversity there.

But by all accounts, they won't release a more powerful version of the handheld, just an upgraded one with maybe a different design. It won't be where you can't play certain games on it though. It'll take years before we get something like a 3DSi or whatever...

And btw, most basic PC's of today CAN match or outdo what PS3 or 360 can do... Even poorly optimized ports such as Force Unleashed have no issues running on a budget system such as mine.

 

[Scott-105]

The DS Phat had two levels of backlight, i think on and off. Lite has 4 levels of varying brightness. Much more diversity there.

But by all accounts, they won't release a more powerful version of the handheld, just an upgraded one with maybe a different design. It won't be where you can't play certain games on it though. It'll take years before we get something like a 3DSi or whatever...

And btw, most basic PC's of today CAN match or outdo what PS3 or 360 can do... Even poorly optimized ports such as Force Unleashed have no issues running on a budget system such as mine.

Why is talk of the 3DS processor going to computers and backlights?

 

[granville]

Good point, very offtopic. Although i think the point behind the upgrades was that someone mentioned they thought Nintendo would upgrade the Pica200 chip in a year or so. Which just won't happen.

On the other spectrum of things though, i'm wondering if it will be possible to overclock the processor and GPU like you can in PSP...

 

[dsfanatic5]

I don't understand what any of you are talking about. Quotes to my posts only talk about obvious revisions to the DS hardware, but many of you are looking "too far" into the future of the 3DS. Why can't anyone focus on the initial hardware? Sure Nintendo's going to release revisions, and you'd have to be a fucktard not to realize this trend. However, I feel that the 3DS is in "itself" a revision of all past DS hardwares.

So where can 3DS go? XL with largers screens? Most likely not, since the top 3D screen will be expensive enough, and I doubt they'll release a Micro version. Nintendo already got the LCD screens right, which started with the GBA Micro, extended to the re-release versions of the GBA SP (Cobalt and Light Blue) with updated LCD screens. This tech was incorporated into the DS Lite, as well as a complete redesign to make it more "iPod-like."

All of the necessary revisions have already been made, so I doubt a re-design of the 3DS will come along as soon as previous DS revisions.

Then some of you talk about how the graphics might be 2 years behind us, but that doesn't matter. I have GameCube games with better graphics than Wii games, and GBA games that are more impressive than DS games. I still don't understand why so many here are concerned, when we should all be excited.

 

[Midna]

However, I feel that the 3DS is in "itself" a revision of all past DS hardwares.

Why the hell would you think that? Because the name has "DS" in it? The hardware is completely different and it's sporting some nice new features. Is the DS a revision of the GBA? Is the GBA a revision of the GBC?

Oh and Granville is right. the 2008 revision of the Pica200 is indeed legit.

 

[person66]

has nintendo said when they will release all the hardware specs for the 3DS yet?

off topic - @granville, there is no way in hell my budget pc could get anywhere near the gaming capabilities of my PS3, but I guess it depends on your definition of "budget"

 

[dsfanatic5]

However, I feel that the 3DS is in "itself" a revision of all past DS hardwares.

Why the hell would you think that? Because the name has "DS" in it? The hardware is completely different and it's sporting some nice new features. Is the DS a revision of the GBA? Is the GBA a revision of the GBC?

Oh and Granville is right. the 2008 revision of the Pica200 is indeed legit.

Oh yeah, because it has the name DS in it. Get real, and get off your horse. Nintendo didn't just jump from the orginal GameBoy to the 3DS. You might not want to use the term "revision," but every new handheld Nintendo has ever released was an evolution from the previous incarnation. You could go back as far as the Game & Watch handhelds, to see the natural progression for Nintendo. They've had a vision all along, with ideas that couldn't be developed due to the limitations in technology. Nintendo scrutinized Gunpei Yokoi for developing the Virtual Boy, but the vision he had can only be realized now through the 3DS.

You ask, "Is the DS a revision of the GBA?" Everyone knows the DS was intended to be a "third pillar" or experimental developer's system, to try and EVOLVE what the GBA had established. It's an extension, an evolution, like every Nintendo handheld has been, and always will be.

Why so angry? Why do you have to try and dominate this forum like you're the KING OF THE 3DS?. You make a lot of good points, but you come across like an ass.

 

[pachura]

So where can 3DS go? XL with largers screens? Most likely not, since the top 3D screen will be expensive enough

Why not? If 3DS turns out to be a major success, Sharp could set up a new production line for bigger 3D screens with the same resolution. The quantities to be sold would justify the initial costs... the only question is: will the increased size be still compatible with human eye ?

What is more, Sharp already has an identical 3D screen as the one which is going to be used in 3DS, but with double horizontal resolution (800x480). It would be backwards compatible with the first revision of 3DS...

 

[granville]

@dsfanatic5

Just take a chill pill dude. You're the one who used revision in a way you clearly didn't intend. When we use the term revision, it's the incremental release of the exact same system with a few minor adjustments. For example

Gameboy (1st gen cartridge handheld).
Revisions of Gameboy- Gameboy Light, Gameboy Pocket.
---
Gameboy Color (i'd call this not so much a generational leap as more of an upgrade, but it was the only one of its kind with no revisions).
---
Gameboy Advance (what i'd call a second gen cartridge handheld).
Revisions of GBA- GBA SP, GBA Micro, GBA SP2 (better screen)
---
Nintendo DS (may have been intended as an experiment, but not anymore due to success 3rd gen cart handheld)
Revisions of DS- DS Lite
---
I'd call the DSi similar to the GBC, slightly more power than the DS but not a true new system
---
Nintendo 3DS (definitely 4th gen, much more powerful with an entirely new game library, specifically stated by Nintendo to be a brand new generation of handheld)

I wanted to add here that about a month ago, Nintendo said there WAS room for a bigger screen for future revisions. And new revisions will surely be made and they WILL use a larger screen. Just saying, they don't need to wait for technology to get better.

 

[Deathmore]

Considering that Nintendo and third party developers have squeezed amazing results out of past hardware, and looking at the early demos on the 3DS, I'm perfectly happy with the "potential" of the new handheld. Numbers are fun for those who are into hardware specs, but for me, the proof is in the actual games.

Some developers make crappy looking games, regardless of the system's power. Then there's companies who defy the system's specs, and make a game that seems like it belongs on a more powerful system. For me, this was Resident Evil 4 on GameCube.

I don't know anything about these chips, or the tech jargon associated with it. Nor do I care to compare 3DS to the PSP, since I already prefer my DS Lite over my PSP, simply because the games are more entertaining to me. I'm guilty of this premature guessing game that everyone's playing with the 3DS, but in the end, we're all going to have to just wait and see for ourselves. I have a positive feeling we won't be disappointed.

True, but I wonder how long they can go until they reach it's limit. Hopefully the next installment (3DS Lite?) will have a newer version of the chip.

And before you start bashing me, I know it might be the one from 2008, but 2 years in graphics times is huge.

Ok and do you want nintendo to use the Tegra 1? Because in 2008 that's when that was announced.

People they finalized the dev kit in like late 2008 and then third parties got it in 2009 with the reveal being in 2010. It's not that difficult to figure out. They can't change the graphics chip, every game has already been optimised. Also the home consoles use way older chips, think about it the dev kit for those consoles probably were also finalised like 1-2 years before the system came out. The chip is a brand new chip, if you keep playing "lets get the new chip next year game" then no system would be released.

Get it through people, 2 year graphics chip was the cutting edge and latest when they finalized the 3DS' specs

 

[mehrab2603]

does anyone know anything about the CPU of the 3DS?

 

[granville]

does anyone know anything about the CPU of the 3DS?

Not specifically, though it is very likely an ARM processor, possibly (and likely) a higher clocked version of the ARM7 and ARM9 CPU's on old DS systems. I say likely because i don't believe ARM processors are compatible game-wise. Meaning games have to be specifically programmed for each kind of ARM processor i believe. So if they changed processors, they'd likely not be able to have back compatibility with DS/DSi games. So the odds are very likely that the 3DS will retain the same processors as the DS, but clocked FAR higher. I think one of those processors can go somewhere near ~700mhz or something, not sure...

 

[Daku93]

does anyone know anything about the CPU of the 3DS?

Not specifically, though it is very likely an ARM processor, possibly (and likely) a higher clocked version of the ARM7 and ARM9 CPU's on old DS systems. I say likely because i don't believe ARM processors are compatible game-wise. Meaning games have to be specifically programmed for each kind of ARM processor i believe. So if they changed processors, they'd likely not be able to have back compatibility with DS/DSi games. So the odds are very likely that the 3DS will retain the same processors as the DS, but clocked FAR higher. I think one of those processors can go somewhere near ~700mhz or something, not sure...

Or they just include the old DS Processor and a new one.
That way they were able to make the DS GBA compatible.

 

[granville]

I'd think that unlikely to have a newer one to be honest. Three would probably be pushing the thing's power. They're already cramming a ton of hardware into a little DS Lite, imagine if they added a THIRD processor into the same form factor (3DS is about the size of a Lite). Not only would it likely not fit, it would create a lot more heat and suck a ton of power. They've also got a new very powerful dedicated GPU in there too. So you're cramming way too much in. Especially considering they said they were trying to match the DSi's battery life...

Unless they can just totally replace the processors with better and more efficient ones without losing DS compatibility, we'll likely be seeing just higher clocked versions of the same chips. And i think they're intending to let the Pica200 do a lot of the pushing with new games to be honest. They already lost something around 30 minutes of battery life just clocking the DSi a little higher than DS. I don't really know HOW they intend on having such power without draining the battery and creating excessive heat...

 

[FireGrey]

We could of known all hardware details at E3...
...But no-one had the guts to steal a 3DS xP

 

[ByteMunch]

I don't really know HOW they intend on having such power without draining the battery and creating excessive heat...

Bigger Battery?

 

[mehrab2603]

I'd think that unlikely to have a newer one to be honest. Three would probably be pushing the thing's power. They're already cramming a ton of hardware into a little DS Lite, imagine if they added a THIRD processor into the same form factor (3DS is about the size of a Lite). Not only would it likely not fit, it would create a lot more heat and suck a ton of power. They've also got a new very powerful dedicated GPU in there too. So you're cramming way too much in. Especially considering they said they were trying to match the DSi's battery life...

Unless they can just totally replace the processors with better and more efficient ones without losing DS compatibility, we'll likely be seeing just higher clocked versions of the same chips. And i think they're intending to let the Pica200 do a lot of the pushing with new games to be honest. They already lost something around 30 minutes of battery life just clocking the DSi a little higher than DS. I don't really know HOW they intend on having such power without draining the battery and creating excessive heat...

they can arrange it so the ds processor is active only in ds mode and inactive rest of the time(ie. 3DS mode).

 

[granville]

We could of known all hardware details at E3...
...But no-one had the guts to steal a 3DS xP
I'm thinking you'd have to kidnap the hot chick attached to it to steal one... Not that this would be such a bad idea! lol

QUOTEthey can arrange it so the ds processor is active only in ds mode and inactive rest of the time(ie. 3DS mode).

But you'd still have to deal with the fact that the circuit board may just have way too much stuff on it. You can only fit so much stuff on the thing before it becomes physically too large to fit inside the case. You've got several new physical features that are taking up space already. The top screen is larger now (than DS Lite anyways). And they added a new analog stick. And there is a brand new GPU (which i don't know the size of, but it's definitely going to be a separate item). To put into perspective how crammed up all this stuff is, the designer of the system was asked why they didn't add a second analog stick on the right side. He said literally that there was no more room in the current design to fit another stick there. The battery probably takes up a lot of room there as well, it may actually be physically bigger to provide more power for the impressive specs.

I'm going to go with the theory that they're using the same CPU's as DS with a higher clock rate. Maybe they found ways to deal with heat and even energy consumption. But you will definitely need those two ARM's for DS compatibility. It's not something you can just throw out and expect to retain DS compatibility. And i really don't believe there exists better but different CPU's that will be compatible with the games. I WILL be willing to eat my words and admit i'm wrong if i'm proven wrong. I'll admit i'm not the best person to ask. Probably Normmatt or someone from the developer side could tell you more about hardware.

 

[DiscostewSM]

Don't quote me on this, but I thought I remembered reading an article many months back about the DS's CPU (supposedly a single CPU) being able to handle emulation of both CPUs in the DS with room to spare. I have since been trying to find that article with no luck.