The problem with the Final Fantasy Franchise

[Xzi]

Oh, there is no doubt in my mind that XVI will be a better game than XV.
But will it be more "Final Fantasy" I am not sure. Maybe.

Final Fantasy XIV is a great MMOrpg game. But if it was me I would not put it in the mainline Final Fantasy series. It's like if they had named WOW Warcraft 4 instead.

Well that's just it, at this point I don't think we can say Final Fantasy is just one single thing any more, and both of my favorite entries in the series (Tactics and XIV) are deviations from that "mainline" formula. XVI looks like a kaiju (summons) battler that uses real-time combat, but I'm totally here for it. It's gonna be an insane spectacle of a game.

 

[SAORIxMEGUMIN]

I am not saying the game absolutely sucks. But it's not a suitable as a mainline title.
Started of as a spin-off and it should have been kept as a spin-off.

I do enjoy action RPG's. I really like Kingdom Hearts, Tales of and the mana Series.

So if I wanna play action RPGs I can just play those.
And if they want to make action RPG's they should just focus on the action RPG franchises they already have, make spin-off titles or make new IP's.

But it's not a good idea to mess to much with the fundamentals of a very established franchise.

Final Fantasy has never had a linear set path in its game play since the Playstation era games. After VII, any idea of what is suitable to be called a Final Fantasy is a misguided opinion.

Other than turn based game play, they vary wildly. Someone who played VII and then skipped to X-2 wouldn't even recognize it as that game.

X-2 has more in common with Grandia II in its battle style than VII. X-2 wasn't received as well as some of the other main line entries, though I think it had more to do with the story than the game play.

 

[Glyptofane]

XIII was definitely a lowlight for the series, little more than a cowclicker in terms of gameplay. XV was better, but not by much. Nonetheless I am very excited for XVI, looks like it's trying something new not just for the sake of it, but because they actually have a cohesive vision for this one. In Yoshi-P we trust, FFXIV is by far the best MMORPG I've played. Need to re-sub if I can ever find the time.

XIII showed that interesting and engaging results could still be achieved with turn based, but pretty much everything other than the battle system itself was just awful.

I'm with OP and crave some sort of throwback like IX but don't believe Square will do that any time soon. Bravely Default is technically a FF spinoff and somewhat fills the void left behind by FF's evolution, but not completely.

We'll just have to hope for the best with XVI for now.

 

[SAORIxMEGUMIN]

XIII showed that interesting and engaging results could still be achieved with turn based, but pretty much everything other than the battle system itself was just awful.

I'm with OP and crave some sort of throwback like IX but don't believe Square will do that any time soon. Bravely Default is technically a FF spinoff and somewhat fills the void left behind by FF's evolution, but not completely.

We'll just have to hope for the best with XVI for now.

It is very hard for me to play VII, VIII, and IX since my first entry was X (Other than the FF VIII Demo Disc). I enjoyed the story, but the graphics were hard to adjust to and I prefer the newer turn based style battles.

XIII is okay, but I think XV is a much better version of XIII real time style combat.

 

[DaniPoo]

Final Fantasy has never had a linear set path in its game play since the Playstation era games. After VII, any idea of what is suitable to be called a Final Fantasy is a misguided opinion.

Other than turn based game play, they vary wildly. Someone who played VII and then skipped to X-2 wouldn't even recognize it as that game.

X-2 has more in common with Grandia II in its battle style than VII. X-2 wasn't received as well as some of the other main line entries, though I think it had more to do with the story than the game play.

I really can't agree with that,

Every game up to X-X2 had:
- Turned based combat
- Memorable music with catchy melodies
- Iconic characters or classes
- Top notch story (for their time)

The best games in the series (IV-X) also had:
- Memorable story moments that gave people goosebumps and made people cry
- a focus on relationships between the characters
- Interesting growth systems (not always great, but at least interesting)
- loads of fun side quest that actually give you nice rewards (like optional summons, gear, weapons and even magic)

And on top of that, there is some kind of magic in those titles that is hard to describe, a feeling or mood.
Perhaps it's thanks to the artistic direction and the fun and easy to follow dialogue.
I am not sure.

But I would say that there is definitely something important that they lost after X.

I have played and completed every Final Fantasy game (That wasn't a spin-off or MMO).
Many of them I have completed multiple times.
And I feel pretty confident about my opinion about each and every Final Fantasy title.

 

[SAORIxMEGUMIN]

I really can't agree with that,

Every game up to X-X2 had:
- Turned based combat
- Memorable music with catchy melodies
- Iconic characters or classes
- Top notch story (for their time)

The best games in the series (IV-X) also had:
- Memorable story moments that gave people goosebumps and made people cry
- a focus on relationships between the characters
- Interesting growth systems (not always great, but at least interesting)
- loads of fun side quest that actually give you nice rewards (like optional summons, gear, weapons and even magic)

And on top of that, there is some kind of magic in those titles that is hard to describe, a feeling or mood.
Perhaps it's thanks to the artistic direction and the fun and easy to follow dialogue.
I am not sure.

But I would say that there is definitely something important that they lost after X.

I have played and completed every Final Fantasy game (That wasn't a spin-off or MMO).
Many of them I have completed multiple times.
And I feel pretty confident about my opinion about each and every Final Fantasy title.

Usually the earliest experiences will have more of an influence on emotions for most people. For you the earliest introduction to certain emotions were in the early games.

A younger person might experience a similar thing to the newer games. You are experiencing the newer games based on a large experience base of previous felt emotions. For you they are shallow because you are more complex with experience. For a young person, they have experienced very little and those might shape their idea of deep emotions at the time.

You see it often in children when they are watching any cartoon or live action kids show where they are obviously into it and feel emotions, yet it is so shallow and silly to adults. "Yay, they beat the bad guy with the power of friendship!" To an adult, that's overly basic and silly.

Final Fantasy seemed to be geared more towards teenagers, which are obviously further along than children, yet they are still children.

 

[DaniPoo]

Usually the earliest experiences will have more of an influence on emotions for most people. For you the earliest introduction to certain emotions were in the early games.

A younger person might experience a similar thing to the newer games. You are experiencing the newer games based on a large experience base of previous felt emotions. For you they are shallow because you are more complex with experience. For a young person, they have experienced very little and those might shape their idea of deep emotions at the time.

You see it often in children when they are watching any cartoon or live action kids show where they are obviously into it and feel emotions, yet it is so shallow and silly to adults. "Yay, they beat the bad guy with the power of friendship!" To an adult, that's overly basic and silly.

Final Fantasy seemed to be geared more towards teenagers, which are obviously further along than children, yet they are still children.

oh definitely but if you have played these games you know that what I am talking about is more than that.

* Aerith Death - Final Fantasy VII
* Celles tries to take her life by jumping from a cliff because she is lonely - Final Fantasy VI
* Multiple Squall and Rinoa moments are just perfect - Final Fantasy VIII
* Zidane is cheered up by his friends when he is depressed (You're not alone is playing, pure goosebumps) - Final Fantasy IX
* Zidande's entrance in the end of the game - Final Fantasy IX
* The spring scene and the ending scene - Final Fantasy X

I could continue to bring up examples

There is absolutely nothing like this in any Final Fantasy game after X-X2.

Only thing that comes close is probably the ending of FFXV but that one is not satisfying enough.
Luna's death did not have the same impact as Aerith, because Luna was always this character that you got to see in some cutscenes and you never really got very attached to her.
Like yeah she's there in some flashbacks and stuff but it's not as personal when you didn't get to experience their relationship forming and growing first hand.

XII has pretty much no emotional moments except for grieving a character that you as the player never got to know.

XIII had Serah, But it's not that emotional as it could have been. For the same reason as Luna.
Lightning says: My sister turned to crystal
Snow says: My fiancé turned to crystal
And this is before you get to know what kind of person she was or much about their relationships.

The games used to focus more on the character relationships and interactions between them.
They were often showing much more character growth.

There used to be a lot of interesting twists in the stories. Usually a few about the main characters.
VII-X are all good examples of this, but also IV and V.

There wasn't many twists at all in XII-XV.

So after X we get:
* Sort of straight forward stories with minimal surprise factor
* No (Or very little) relationship or character development compared to the previous games
* Very weak emotional moments (if any)

I dunno, I recently watched Clannad - The after Years for the first time and it made me cry.
It was yanking my heart strings the same way Final Fantasy used to do.
So I know that I am still able to get emotional if the story and the scene push those buttons.

But Final Fantasy does not attempt to "push the buttons" anymore

 

[SAORIxMEGUMIN]

oh definitely but if you have played these games you know that what I am talking about is more than that.

* Aerith Death - Final Fantasy VII
* Celles tries to take her life by jumping from a cliff because she is lonely - Final Fantasy VI
* Multiple Squall and Rinoa moments are just perfect - Final Fantasy VIII
* Zidane is cheered up by his friends when he is depressed (You're not alone is playing, pure goosebumps) - Final Fantasy IX
* Zidande's entrance in the end of the game - Final Fantasy IX
* The spring scene and the ending scene - Final Fantasy X

I could continue to bring up examples

There is absolutely nothing like this in any Final Fantasy game after X-X2.

Only thing that comes close is probably the ending of FFXV but that one is not satisfying enough.
Luna's death did not have the same impact as Aerith, because Luna was always this character that you got to see in some cutscenes and you never really got very attached to her.
Like yeah she's there in some flashbacks and stuff but it's not as personal when you didn't get to experience their relationship forming and growing first hand.

XII has pretty much no emotional moments except for grieving a character that you as the player never got to know.

XIII had Serah, But it's not that emotional as it could have been. For the same reason as Luna.
Lightning says: My sister turned to crystal
Snow says: My fiancé turned to crystal
And this is before you get to know what kind of person she was or much about their relationships.

The games used to focus more on the character relationships and interactions between them.
They were often showing much more character growth.

There used to be a lot of interesting twists in the stories. Usually a few about the main characters.
VII-X are all good examples of this, but also IV and V.

There wasn't many twists at all in XII-XV.

So after X we get:
* Sort of straight forward stories with minimal surprise factor
* No (Or very little) relationship or character growth compared to the previous games
* Very weak emotional moments (if any)

I dunno, I recently watched Clannad - The after Years for the first time and it made me cry.
It was yanking my heart strings the same way Final Fantasy used to do.
So I know that I am still able to get emotional if the story and the scene push those buttons.

But Final Fantasy does not attempt to "push the buttons" anymore

Aerith's death was probably one of your earliest memories of an emotionally invested character dying in a game you were interested in and is a prime example for emotional connection. 20+ years later a character death is pretty common in RPGs and players have created the term and now recognize death flags.

It is no longer a surprise.

Since Final Fantasies are aimed at teens, they reset the cycle of emotional development progression when the next set of teens is due to experience them.

The census is probably what dictates when the largest group of customers in the age bracket will be looking for these types of games.

 

[Cyan]

I read the thread in diagonal, sorry, I might go back and read it more properly.
I wanted to say that I feel like FF16 is FF9 again, some "back to the sources" for the fantasy and story. At least, I hope it will be...
The few preview we saw, it seems to have a detailed fantasy world, in the sense of story and background (not graphically). But only for the story and fantasy, I'm not fond of the Action fighting game DMC style.
Maybe I'm wrong


since May 2022, I wrote and updated a website to talk about the entire franchise and my opinion about it , but it's in french :/
I wrote it for someone who didn't play any game in the series and wondered which one she should start with.
If someone is interested and understand french, here it is. (it wasn't planed to be revealed publicly, but maybe it can be interesting to someone)
I like your "reboot" word for ff7 remake, I'll steal it

To resume, I said the same thing than you DaniPoo : FF10 was the first game who changed the genre, and made it more "next gen". the classical are 1-9, next gen 10+
They now focus more on the presentation than the story.

(edit: this single link here, and google is now referencing it in their search engine... it wasn't meant to be worldwide known, but... oh, well)

 

[DaniPoo]

Aerith's death was probably one of your earliest memories of an emotionally invested character dying in a game you were interested in and is a prime example for emotional connection. 20+ years later a character death is pretty common in RPGs and players have created the term and now recognize death flags.

It is no longer a surprise.

Since Final Fantasies are aimed at teens, they reset the cycle of emotional development progression when the next set of teens is due to experience them.

But you miss the point..

The point is that a character's death has way more of an impact if you have an attachment to that character. The best ways to establish an attachment to a character is:

1) Get to know this character
2) See the character develop
3) see this character interact with others
4) Play as this character

The Aerith death scene was so effective because of all of these things, not only because I was younger back then.

What I am saying is that later Final Fantasy titles fail because of point 1-4 are not there.

 

[SAORIxMEGUMIN]

But you miss the point..

The point is that a character's death has way more of an impact if you have an attachment to that character. The best ways to establish an attachment to a character is:

1) Get to know this character
2) See the character develop
3) see this character interact with others
4) Play as this character

The Aerith death scene was so effective because of all of these things, not only because I was younger back then.

What I am saying is that later Final Fantasy titles fail because of point 1-4 are not there.

I didn't miss the point. You missed the point. Emotional attachments are made much quicker at a younger age. Your best friend in kindergarten was probably someone you agreed with on a most basic level. Your friends in grade school were probably similar or one experience made you like them and view them with a lens that ignored the negative parts because of the initial experience.

When they reset the cycle it is progressing these attachments and emotional growth at the base point. Not where you are standing, already understanding and experienced.

They are making the entry point for base camp, and you have already reached the summit. The mountain will always be a bit different, though mountains are made of lots of the same things. Likewise, most base camps will feature the same things with slight variations for different climates.

Once you have experienced base camps from all over the world, every base camp starts to look average.

 

[Cyan]

emotional attachment depends on people, and their own life's story.
Someone can just find death not sad, while someone will be over feeling it.
Some people can get attached to characters, while others just play always with the same one and don't care which one they play with, if one die, they just switch to another, etc.

I also agree with SAORIxMEGUMIN, the amount you experience something can make you less affected about it. So, the age can make you less emotional (you saw lot of movies, played lot of games), but not every one will lose their emotions either. everyone is different.

 

[DaniPoo]

I didn't miss the point. You missed the point. Emotional attachments are made much quicker at a younger age. Your best friend in kindergarten was probably someone you agreed with on a most basic level. Your friends in grade school were probably similar or one experience made you like them and view them with a lens that ignored the negative parts because of the initial experience.

When they reset the cycle it is progressing these attachments and emotional growth at the base point. Not where you are standing, already understanding and experienced.

They are making the entry point for base camp, and you have already reached the summit. The mountain will always be a bit different, though mountains are made of lots of the same things. Likewise, most base camps will feature the same things with slight variations for different climates.

Once you have experienced base camps from all over the world, every base camp starts to look average.

Yes of course, I agree with what you are saying.

But but even so, I can analyse these games objectively and find that the later games have much weaker writing when it comes to the emotional aspect.

And I think I explained it pretty well in my previous post why it's more difficult to get attached to lets say Luna compared to Aerith.

There is a very straight forward reason for this.

She's never in the party
You don't get to learn about her on a personal level other than a couple of very short cutscenes.
You only see her together with the main character in a few cutscenes from when they were kids.
And there is almost no relatable chemistry between them.

Aerith, Rinoa, Dagger and Yuna where playable characters.
You got to know their personalities and see them grow and interact way more.

So naturally you would get more attached to these characters than someone who is just mentioned or shown in some cutscenes

Ofcourse I am older now and more numb to emotions than I used to be when I was younger and had the ability to immerse myself in the stories on a deeper level.

But I can still tell great writing from poor

 

[DaniPoo]

emotional attachment depends on people, and their own life's story.
Someone can just find death not sad, while someone will be over feeling it.
Some people can get attached to characters, while others just play always with the same one and don't care which one they play with, if one die, they just switch to another, etc.

I also agree with SAORIxMEGUMIN, the amount you experience something can make you less affected about it. So, the age can make you less emotional.

True, Maybe people who don't find it easy to sympathise with a video game character also find it difficult to fully enjoy some of the earlier Final Fantasy titles.

For me this was one of the highlights of these titles. I find myself finding the same entertainment value in some anime series.

 

[Cortador]

"This is a long rant from a long time fan of the series.
Feel free to disagree and discuss but please be respectful."...

If they try to be innovative people will complain. If they play it safe people will complain they are playing it safe.

Dammed if you do, dammed if you don't.

Oh, there is no doubt in my mind that XVI will be a better game than XV.
But will it be more "Final Fantasy" I am not sure. Maybe.

Final Fantasy XIV is a great MMOrpg game. But if it was me I would not put it in the mainline Final Fantasy series. It's like if they had named WOW Warcraft 4 instead.

What is a Final Fantasy though? Why do they have to conform to your standards?

Even back in the NES/SNES days, SquareSoft has always attempted to innovate with new mechanics (ATB for example amongst other mechanics.) within the limitations of the console in scope. Always trying to push the boundaries and do things differently. Sometimes these changes are well received sometimes they are not.

 

[Cyan]

I'm for changes in the game mechanics, but not to the detriment of the story.
They think having nice videos or an open world with realistic graphics is enough to make a good game. or calling it "final fantasy" is enough to sell it.
I'd prefer a pixelart game with 100H of story, than a 50GB game full of cinematic and 3H story.
Actually, no, I would also enjoy the 3H short story if it was good enough AND complete.

I didn't like FF15 because you have to watch a VOD movie FIRST (if you can find it near you), and it ends without any complete story, you had to wait for DLC (which I ended NOT playing because I wasn't in the game anymore).
Why couldn't it include the movie story as ... playable events in the game ??? on Snes, FF6 with 3MB game had 60H of story. FF7 has 8H of Midgard introduction before the player can move on the map, but FF15 is ... on the map directly without back story explained.
FF15 feels like a bad "slice of life", without background.
and some "slice of life" can be really good with an interesting background (The last story), but I didn't find the story of FF15 interesting. it's more an empty open world with Fedex missions go-there, get-me-this, 2 big bosses, and done.

Games nowadays are incomplete and span over multiple platform, movies, console, phones, DLC, pay2play cashing business, etc.
I just prefer full complete story at launch, instead of incomplete game with planed updates.

 

[DaniPoo]

If they try to be innovative people will complain. If they play it safe people will complain they are playing it safe.

Dammed if you do, dammed if you don't.



What is a Final Fantasy though? Why do they have to conform to your standards?

Even back in the NES/SNES days, SquareSoft has always attempted to innovate with new mechanics (ATB for example amongst other mechanics.) within the limitations of the console in scope. Always trying to push the boundaries and do things differently. Sometimes these changes are well received sometimes they are not.

Well, Even employees from Square Enix is admitting that the franchise is struggling.
It has done so for about one and a half decade (If not more).
The reviews are not coming in as good as they used to.
Fans are continuing to voice their concerns and dislike.

And my personal opinion falls in line with what has been going on.

You can be free to agree or disagree with me I won't force anyone.

I am simply voicing my own analysis and opinion.

And I am not saying that XII-XV are bad games, in my opinion they are quite good.
But I don't think they are good at being great Final Fantasy games.

As for what a Final Fantasy game is, please read my previous posts.
I think I have tried to answer that a few times now.
But in essence, there is a great change in direction (on multiple fronts) for the series after X-X2.

Story and characters became less of a focus and graphics and action based gameplay became more of a focus.

If you are looking forward to playing Zelda - Breath of the Wild 2.
Then you are probably looking forward to playing it because you thought that the first game was good and you want more of that.

What is even a "Breath of the Wild" game? What is even a Zelda game?

 

[UltraDolphinRevolution]

The only FF game I have ever played was the spin-off on Wii.
Same for DQ.

I hated the inclusion of Cloud in Smash Bros. But he was used so much online that I got decent with him right from the start when I finally did buy him. His look and stage are extremely playstation-ish.

 

[DaniPoo]

The only FF game I have ever played was the spin-off on Wii.
Same for DQ.

I hated the inclusion of Cloud in Smash Bros. But he was used so much online that I got decent with him right from the start when I finally did buy him. His look and stage are extremely playstation-ish.

what spin-off on the Wii? You mean one of those WiiWare titles?

I think Cloud if a great character and I enjoy his inclusion in Smash.
But I have to admit that he is a bit overrated and very milked at this point.
I think he is probably the most iconic Final Fantasy character, but personally he is not my favourite.
And I am actually quite tired of Final Fantasy VII.

It would be nice to see more Zidane, Squall, Terra, Tidus and Cecil. Heck even Barts.

Final Fantasy IX deserves a prequel. It has such an interesting backstory that they could actually create an entire Final Fantasy game around.

Same with Final Fantasy X, I would love to play a game set a 1000 years before Final Fantasy X that leads up to the destruction of the great machina cities or something like that.

Same thing with Final Fantasy VIII really.

I mean the legend of the great Hyne and the battle against him could be the basis of the plot there

"Long, long ago... When this world was just made, there was a strong god called 'Hyne'. This god was very, very strong, but after fighting a lot of monsters, he became very tired. So he made 'people' like you and me to do all the work, and the god went to sleep. [...] However, the god was very surprised when he awoke. Surprised that there were so many people. Hyne decided to reduce the number of people by taking away the children. [...] Of course, everyone was scared then, too. And so, the battle against Hyne began. Even though the people were small, they all got together, and finally cornered him. Hyne didn't know what to do. Out of desperation, he gave half of his body to the people and ran off with the remaining other half. Well, he was a god. Anyway, it turns out Hyne tricked the people. The half that Hyne ran away with was the half that had the stronger magic. Hmmm... It might be close by, actually. It might even be watching you."

 

[Cris1997XX]

From what I've read online (Trustworthy sources at that), Final Fantasy wasn't even that popular in Japan. Sure, it sold decently well back in the NES and SNES days, but it was nowhere near a success as Dragon Quest. In fact pretty much every company had to play catch up with Enix and DQ. But Final Fantasy had one trick up its sleeve: Each game changed significantly from the previous one, mostly bringing graphical and audio improvements along with deeper, more complex stories and more engaging gamplay. Then Square Soft jumped ship to the Playstation and thanks to Sony's deep pockets they finally broke through in the west. That's mainly why they're trying to appeal to western gamers nowadays. Heck, they've been trying to do that ever since FF1 came out in North America in 1990. I obviously don't agree with their choices, and I think the modern games are shit, but as long as Tetsuya Nomura is in a position of power we are unlikely to see a return to form any time soon