Hardware Old Nokia Phones, Series40, Java Games and sound issues

[Nikokaro]

Hello everyone.
I have owned 2 old Nokia Series40 phone models for a long time now: a Nokia Asha 202 and a Nokia 301 rm840. I use both of them exclusively to play the old, beloved java games directly from micro SD. But with both models I have problems with the sound, more exactly if I use games with various sound effects (e.g. Diamond Twister, Block Breaker Deluxe, Puzzle Pets etc.), after a few minutes of playing the game the sound ceases completely, and it doesn't work anymore until I turn the phone off and on again. This happens with both models.
Is it perhaps a problem of insufficient RAM? This is very strange, since one phone has 16MB of RAM, and the other has as much as 64MB, and these simple games have a maximum size of 1 MB. Another strange thing: if I use a Java RAM optimization application (MemoryUp ), it shows me only 2MB of total ram used by the system, in both cases. So not all the available RAM is being used? How come? Does anyone have an explanation, and know a method to remedy this limitation? Thank you.

 

[KleinesSinchen]

First of all: Sadly I can't help you. No knowledge about these. Didn't even know series 40 could load additional applications/games. I thought this was series 60.

Is it perhaps a problem of insufficient RAM? This is very strange, since one phone has 16MB of RAM, and the other has as much as 64MB, and these simple games have a maximum size of 1 MB.

The program size doesn't tell how much memory it needs. Unless a game has a memory leak, the problem should show up pretty much instantly (and with memory leak the device with more RAM should take longer to have the game fail).

Two general things come to my mind:

• Any old compatibility lists for such games? Which phones were supported?
• Are there any emulators to test the games on a powerful computer?

===
By the way: I miss these phones! Some old Nokia lasted up to three weeks with a tiny battery, while my "smart"phone used the same way (means: not at all, only standby) barely lasts two weeks with a huge 5000mAh battery (I expected it to last two months with once charge thinking of such a big battery).

 

[rcpd]

Are there any emulators to test the games on a powerful computer?

There are. KEmulator is going to handle most of these old Java games. For the ones that it doesn't seem able to play, you'll probably need to get the SDK for the phone being used to emulate. The Nokia SDK's specifically for Nokia phones, etc... This can be tricky to find but fortunately not many games need this workaround. There's also FreeJ2ME which generally works just as well as KEmulator and also has the same SDK limitations. Retroarch also has SquirrelJME but compatibility is very low and I don't know the current status of whether or not it is being actively worked on.

If you must play these games mobile (because why wouldn't you, they came on a mobile phone), you need to have an Android or a PSP/Vita. There are no Apple/iOS emulators that I'm aware of, which is a shame because in theory it should work. On Android there is J2ME-Loader. Support is as good as KEmulator or Free2JME with the same SDK limitations. On the PSP/Vita, there is PSPKVM but it doesn't have Capsule 3D capabilities, so it can't play most of the 3D games or the games that need external SDK's.

I see no point to continuing to hold on to antique devices for these games other than pure nostalgia. To play all of them you would need multiple devices from multiple manufacturers. Just about any Android phone can emulate all of them pretty easily if you take the time to set the emulator up properly.

 

[Nikokaro]

@KleinesSinchen , first of all, thank you for responding; how are you? Everything okay?
Strange to say, I didn't get any notification on my smartphone for your reply, I wonder why.

Didn't even know series 40 could load additional applications/games. I thought this was series 60.

Series60 supports slightly more complex games, with more sound effects, and a few 3d graphics titles. Many titles for s60 also work on these phones of mine, with no problems.

Any old compatibility lists for such games? Which phones were supported?

It is usually specified whether they are titles for Samsung, LG, Nokia s40 or s60.

Are there any emulators to test the games on a powerful computer?

Sure, there are various Java phones (j2me) emulators for PC.

Some old Nokia lasted up to three weeks with a tiny battery...

That's right, the battery of the Nokia 301 still lasts me over 2 weeks on standby.

I see no point to continuing to hold on to antique devices for these games other than pure nostalgia.

That is precisely why I use them. You can't imagine the enjoyment of playing these games on real hardware.

To play all of them you would need multiple devices from multiple manufacturers.

On my Nokia 301 I have practically 2GB of 240x320 games (through micro SD); practically almost the entire library of Java games available and the only flaw is the one mentioned above, that with some of them the sound suddenly and incomprehensibly ceases.

 

[KleinesSinchen]

Spoiler: Off topic

first of all, thank you for responding; how are you? Everything okay?

That doesn't belong into a forum thread. Anyway, the answer is my latest blog entry (from April 6th).

Strange to say, I didn't get any notification on my smartphone for your reply, I wonder why.

Maybe because the phone is so smart it already acknowledged I didn't deliver a solution… and wanted to save your time?
Or your phone knows that I prefer proper computers, is miffed about this and decided to throw away the notification to punish you for talking to me?

…Or the forum software simply "derped". Happens sometimes. Good idea to manually look if something is important to you (remember that blog notifications are completely broken)

Forget what I said about memory leaks. Java should be pretty save from this. It doesn't require manual memory management from the programmer.

I see no point to continuing to hold on to antique devices for these games other than pure nostalgia. To play all of them you would need multiple devices from multiple manufacturers. Just about any Android phone can emulate all of them pretty easily if you take the time to set the emulator up properly.

With that logic a powerful phone with a controller and a PC with a controller could replace pretty much everything.
"Who needs a Game Boy without backlight?"
"Why use a PlayStation 1 without HDMI requiring CDs?"
"Stupid NES games are so hard without save states… I only play them emulated."
And so on.
My answer to the question "Real old hardware or emulator?" is simply: Both!

That is precisely why I use them. You can't imagine the enjoyment of playing these games on real hardware.

I can. Well, maybe not this particular thing since I never was very attracted by phones of any kind. But playing the original consoles mentioned above feels the same for me.

Again, I can't help you with the question (and also replied here hoping to learn something new if somebody else can). Unfortunately you are often asking very peculiar and hard to answer questions. Run it in an emulator and see if the problem is present there as well (wouldn't surprise me)

 

[rcpd]

With that logic a powerful phone with a controller and a PC with a controller could replace pretty much everything.
"Who needs a Game Boy without backlight?"
"Why use a PlayStation 1 without HDMI requiring CDs?"
"Stupid NES games are so hard without save states… I only play them emulated."
And so on.
My answer to the question "Real old hardware or emulator?" is simply: Both!

I don't disagree in many circumstances. I'd much rather play NES/Famicom on a CRT TV with original hardware versus an emulator on a phone or PC. But at some point it becomes a matter of convenience and longevity versus how much time, money, and effort you're willing to put in to make it work.

I could play on my CRT TV and my original NES, but to do so involves getting that small CRT TV from the closet, getting the NES from the closet, getting the games from the closet, finding a place to set it all up, and hoping that it still works when I plug it all in and that if something is broken it is something I can fix. Old devices don't last forever. And what if I'm not home and I want to play these games?

I'm also a big advocate for minimalism. I have a lot of interests, and if I can have a device that does many functions well enough to get by versus several devices to accomplish the same feature set, I'll take the multi-functional device all day every day. Carrying around a second device simply to play old phone games does not appeal to me.

 

[lwiz]

"If Java had real garbage collection, there would be no Java."

Transferring the memory management from programmer to interpreter (term used intentionally in case of Java) makes the memory management only as good as the programmers who wrote the garbage collector. And of course, most of memory management problems we see nowadays in games etc. are due the programmers never learning proper memory management procedures . And Java is a huge memory hog. (There are several old laptops that the owners deemed unusable due slowness and practically, the only fix I did for them was to remove Java completely. Afterwards the laptoops were more than usable again for surfing and whatnot.)

There are several possibilities for sound loss but my 2 top guesses would be:
1) Insufficient memory and instead of crashing out from the game just disabling audio to keep game going
2) Bug in the S40 Java virtual machine (not at all impossible, but nigh impossible to fix)

Testing the games in less memory constrained environment would at least - If the game works ok with sound, then the 1) could be the main reason. If not...

Old Symbian devices were quite nice - I used Nokia 3650 as my daily driver for nearly a decade. And an Iphone is no more than a glorified S80 with touch screen

 

[Nikokaro]

There are several possibilities for sound loss but my 2 top guesses would be:
1) Insufficient memory and instead of crashing out from the game just disabling audio to keep game going
2) Bug in the S40 Java virtual machine (not at all impossible, but nigh impossible to fix)

Thank you for getting to the heart of the matter.
Point 1) is exactly what I had assumed and thought most likely, and I had also conjectured as in point 2): in both cases I understand that there is no easy solution, as I already feared.

What I don't understand is why only 2MB of all the RAM available on the phone is used, but I suppose it to be an inherent limitation of the s40 operating system itself, in whatever old phone it is installed in. Or am I wrong?

 

[lwiz]

What I don't understand is why only 2MB of all the RAM available on the phone is used, but I suppose it to be an inherent limitation of the s40 operating system itself, in whatever old phone it is installed in. Or am I wrong?

I think it is the limitation of the OS - can't really remember the specs and limitations of Symbians that clearly anymore as it's been a while. Also it could be that the memory used by JVM is not counted or reported completely.

 

[KleinesSinchen]

Spoiler: Partially off topic

Transferring the memory management from programmer to interpreter (term used intentionally in case of Java) makes the memory management only as good as the programmers who wrote the garbage collector. And of course, most of memory management problems we see nowadays in games etc. are due the programmers never learning proper memory management procedures . And Java is a huge memory hog. (There are several old laptops that the owners deemed unusable due slowness and practically, the only fix I did for them was to remove Java completely. Afterwards the laptoops were more than usable again for surfing and whatnot.)

I don't get the omnipresent Java-bashing. Just having a JRE installed on a PC will not make it slow. Why should it? It is inactive as long as no Java application is running (and these applications obviously will cease to work when the JRE is uninstalled).
What can rightfully be said is, that the browser plugin turned out to be a never ending nightmare of security holes. This thing had more holes than a sieve and was rightfully scrapped at some point → † Java Applets † ←Who misses them?

I've (involuntarily) tested the garbage collection of Java 8 by implementing "Perfect Hashing" (even with rudimentary GUI). Was a nightmare for a non-developer, and I was happy to not have to care about memory management in addition to implementing the stuff.

When the data structure (for relatively large scale up to 1.000.000 entries) is repeatedly being build up with input from the RNG and scrapped again and again (measuring the time needed), there are sometimes literal breaks of several milliseconds. First time needs the most time. JVM is clearly busy allocating memory only slowly acknowledging the need of higher memory amount. Subsequent attempts of building up are much, much faster. But only up to some point, when the garbage collector suddenly decides to intervene and… well… collect the garbage in memory.
As for randomly searching inside the data structure, the needed time for 10.000.000 searches sharply increases from 40ms to 100ms with structure size… exactly when surpassing the size of the L2 CPU cache. Java does a pretty good job presenting the data in a way the CPU will try to cache everything.

It would be interesting to port this implementation to C for comparison. It should run faster if done correctly and not suffer from occasional performance hiccups.

So back to the Nokia phones. I. Have. No. F…ing. Idea…… if the tiny JVM in those limited phones is remotely comparable to those on full-fledged (and powerful) PCs, which are able to swallow some overhead without the user noticing. I mean the performance dips mentioned in spoiler above weren't really noticeable for the user. I found out about them by systematically and accurately recording times.

@Nikokaro Again, try running the problematic games in an emulator for comparison. We can't rule out yet if those games are just badly made.

if I use a Java RAM optimization application (MemoryUp ), it shows me only 2MB of total ram used by the system, in both cases. So not all the available RAM is being used? How come? Does anyone have an explanation, and know a method to remedy this limitation?

Is it possible to access this memory tool while the game is running? Is there full multitasking on these phones? Like opening a browser, a text editor, a picture viewer with a photo. That should increase memory usage. Just poking around in the dark here.

 

[Nikokaro]

...try running the problematic games in an emulator for comparison.

As you already know, I only have an old PC with Windows XP, and I doubt that modern java phone emulators work there. However I tested them on PSPVKM (J2me emulator for PSP) and they seem to work normally, without sound loss.

Is it possible to access this memory tool while the game is running?

Nope. MemoryUp is an application in .jar format, the same as the games used, and you can only load one at a time. I am absolutely certain that when I play a game, no application is running in the background: I have turned everything off; phone calls, messages, Internet data, bluetooth....everything!

I am afraid that only those who know the Java programming language and know how it works on these old portable operating systems (not that old, since they are 2013/2015 models) can help me. As mentioned above, I am afraid that 2MB is the maximum amount of RAM that Series40 can use (although the phone has more) but I would like confirmation from those familiar with the subject.

However, it is just an annoyance, not a major problem, since these titles do not crash or freeze, only the sound ceases.

 

[lwiz]

Spoiler: Off topic continues

I don't get the omnipresent Java-bashing. Just having a JRE installed on a PC will not make it slow. Why should it? It is inactive as long as no Java application is running (and these applications obviously will cease to work when the JRE is uninstalled).
What can rightfully be said is, that the browser plugin turned out to be a never ending nightmare of security holes. This thing had more holes than a sieve and was rightfully scrapped at some point → † Java Applets † ←Who misses them?

Sadly the browser plugin wasn't the main culprit of said holes - it was just a way for exploiting underlying Java flaws easily. TBH my personal hatred of Java started when my computer was infected via Java security hole. The idiots at Sun accepted any certificate; self signed, expired and whatnot as valid, practically allowing any code to run on JVM.

My hunch on why Java makes computers slow over time is the automatic update process. As everything with Java it's done on Java and over time - the more you deviate from the original installation version - the updater gets slower and slower. You are right that it shouldn't, but it does as my experience is based on dozens of laptops/desktops, not just a couple.

When the data structure (for relatively large scale up to 1.000.000 entries) is repeatedly being build up with input from the RNG and scrapped again and again (measuring the time needed), there are sometimes literal breaks of several milliseconds. First time needs the most time. JVM is clearly busy allocating memory only slowly acknowledging the need of higher memory amount. Subsequent attempts of building up are much, much faster. But only up to some point, when the garbage collector suddenly decides to intervene and… well… collect the garbage in memory.
As for randomly searching inside the data structure, the needed time for 10.000.000 searches sharply increases from 40ms to 100ms with structure size… exactly when surpassing the size of the L2 CPU cache. Java does a pretty good job presenting the data in a way the CPU will try to cache everything.

My C/C++ is probably rusty as heck at present, but I could take on the challenge Might be fun to throw C# and Python to the mix as well.

I could try asking my friend who worked at Nokia R&D at the time although on exchanges. He might have some info or insight what's happening and why as IIRC he did some coding on Symbian and later definitely on Meego/Sailfish.

 

[Nikokaro]

Hmm... I just discovered something interesting. Using the MemoryUp application (.jar format) that optimizes RAM memory usage, it shows me 2.1MB of total available RAM, with only 5% of it occupied.. .. but slowly and inexorably this goes up, until it reaches 10% in a few seconds and then continuing infinitely.
So, is it possible that the same thing happens with Java games? That the occupied RAM memory keeps increasing relentlessly while playing? Is this then a defect that affects the s40 operating system itself? Or perhaps only the latest models of Nokia keypad phones (made in India, before the advent of touchscreen smartphones)?

 

[lwiz]

Hmm... I just discovered something interesting. Using the MemoryUp application (.jar format) that optimizes RAM memory usage, it shows me 2.1MB of total available RAM, with only 5% of it occupied.. .. but slowly and inexorably this goes up, until it reaches 10% in a few seconds and then continuing infinitely.
So, is it possible that the same thing happens with Java games? That the occupied RAM memory keeps increasing relentlessly while playing? Is this then a defect that affects the s40 operating system itself? Or perhaps only the latest models of Nokia keypad phones (made in India, before the advent of touchscreen smartphones)?

I'd think that even the later models made in India are practically the same on HW/SW standpoint as the older Symbians. I sadly don't have any of my Symbians anymore - I would like to see what happens when these games are run on N-Gage though.

Your findings seem to indicate that there is 2MB memory limit for apps and slow but sure memory usage creep even with a small app. That'd point on removing functionality not necessary on keeping the game itself running when the memory ceiling is reached.

 

[r1vver]

I only have an old PC with Windows XP

I don't know about the Nokia SDK, but for example Sony Ericsson SDK 2.5.0.6 for the Java™ ME Platform is pretty much 2009 and Microsoft Windows XP/Vista, 250 MB hard disk, 256 MB system RAM, 500 MHz CPU, etc.

 

[lwiz]

Had a call with my friend and had a chat about game issues and Asha models in general.
First thing with Ashas is that they have been made "limited" compared to other Series XX phones in order to keep price point low, so even with other hardware advances, they might underperform older Series XX phones.

Based on available information we came to hypothesis that what probably happens is audio overrun meaning too much data sent to audio subsystem for it to handle so rather than crashing the phone or the app it just disables the app audio in order to keep the main functionality - phone calls - uninterrupted.

My friend was somewhat sure that if the available memory was completely spent the app would crash. (Somewhat as we're talking about stuff that has been uder the radar for quite a good while). As the apps keep on going, the memory should be ok.

For comparison it could be interesting to run the same games on "full-blown" series phone, like the N-Gage I mentioned, but probably later series models could be gotten cheaper than that.

Sadly SDK requirements do not correlate to the phone at all - although the Nokia SDK came with phone emulator where you could - if my memory serves me right - test the software on different virtual phone models. Nokia SDK seems to be available, but it requires Nokia forum username and license key based on said username, although versions without the requirement might be found.

 

[Nikokaro]

Okay. @lwiz , thanks to you (and your friend) for the comprehensive explanation (and related assumptions). Actually those were cheaper models than Symbian s60 models, but in Italy they were not cheap at all per se.
Anyway, if I manage to get hold of some other Nokia model, I will try those Java games on that one as well to see if the same defects occur. Otherwise, apart from the loss of sound (only for some titles), the vast majority of games work excellently, even many titles exclusive to s60 and in 3D, and moreover fantastic half-unknown titles of Chinese creation (rpg, action and beat'm up games) and Russian (3d shooting games). And playing them on the palm of your hand, with the micro-joystick of the Nokia 301 is great fun, at least for me.

 

[lwiz]

Okay. @lwizOtherwise, apart from the loss of sound (only for some titles), the vast majority of games work excellently, even many titles exclusive to s60 and in 3D, and moreover fantastic half-unknown titles of Chinese creation (rpg, action and beat'm up games) and Russian (3d shooting games). And playing them on the palm of your hand, with the micro-joystick of the Nokia 301 is great fun, at least for me.

As great and nice the emulators are, there's always that extra when using "real iron" for oldies!

 

[Nikokaro]

Hello everyone. I decided to update this thread to inform you about a recent, pleasant discovery of mine. A few weeks ago I managed to get hold of another s40 (240x320) phone, and more specifically a Nokia 206 in excellent condition, practically new.

At first glance, it would appear aesthetically identical to the Nokia 301, but it is lighter and less angular. Hardware-wise, it has a less powerful processor, less usable RAM, and fewer features available. Yet, guess what........ It does not have the audio defect of the other two previous models!

I have tested it extensively, playing hard with those problematic titles, and the sound effects never cease, even after forty minutes of use; yet it has far fewer technical features than the other two models.The only anomaly: sometimes the sound effects lag slightly behind the image and rarely, strange to say, ahead of it.
This is inexplicable. Anyway, I can say that I have finally found the ideal s40 model, in terms of lightness and portability, with which to play some fantastic Java puzzle games wherever and whenever I want, and moreover engaging only one hand, whose fingers juggle nimbly between the micro-joypad and the action button: what other handheld console allows one to play comfortably using only one hand?

Moreover, to awaken your interest, to entice you to replay these old but always addictive games and, last but not least, to make you die of envy , I'll post below a few hasty and approximate, but still quite striking and eye-catching photos.

 

[KleinesSinchen]

Hello everyone. I decided to update this thread to inform you about a recent, pleasant discovery of mine. A few weeks ago I managed to get hold of another s40 (240x320) phone, and more specifically a Nokia 206 in excellent condition, practically new.

At first glance, it would appear aesthetically identical to the Nokia 301, but it is lighter and less angular. Hardware-wise, it has a less powerful processor, less usable RAM, and fewer features available. Yet, guess what........ It does not have the audio defect of the other two previous models!

An older/weaker model performs better?

I have tested it extensively, playing hard with those problematic titles, and the sound effects never cease, even after forty minutes of use; yet it has far fewer technical features than the other two models.The only anomaly: sometimes the sound effects lag slightly behind the image and rarely, strange to say, ahead of it.
This is inexplicable. Anyway, I can say that I have finally found the ideal s40 model, in terms of lightness and portability, with which to play some fantastic Java puzzle games wherever and whenever I want, and moreover engaging only one hand, whose fingers juggle nimbly between the micro-joypad and the action button: what other handheld console allows one to play comfortably using only one hand?

Confirms my suspicions: These games aren't well tested and might require very specific environment.

Moreover, to awaken your interest, to entice you to replay these old but always addictive games and, last but not least, to make you die of envy , I'll post below a few hasty and approximate, but still quite striking and eye-catching photos.

I gave you a "" for informing us about the solutions, or the fact that the problematic games work on some devices only.
As adequate reaction to your merciless cruelty, embedding a torturing wall of blinding and overly colorful pictures, even in full size instead of thumbnails, you'd deserve something else. The standard reactions aren't good here. Maybe or or would do.