Gaming Megaman!

[spweasel]

Easy or not it's the same fake difficult! They are programmed for you to fire in the time you would be jumping!

a) They are programmed to do no such thing. They are on a timer.
b) If something isn't actually difficult, calling it fake difficulty is highly suspect.

The snakes are easily visible and do not lie about what they are and what they intend to do. You have plenty of time to process their existence and how you are going to deal with them before actually committing to the jump. Even if it were difficult, it would be real difficulty, not fake.

For me Quick man stage is easy, but that does not make it fake difficult as you say!

That's because you know QM's stage by heart. People who are unfamiliar with it are required to make a long series of split-second decisions about what path to take through the level, and any wrong choice equals instant death. And even if they happen to have the necessary split-second reflexes, they'll still die several times since because they didn't enter a screen travelling in the right direction.

That's about as clear-cut as fake difficulty gets.

It's really a common glitch, try staying at the edge of any of these plataforms, it's 100% of chance you be pushed of and dye!

It's not as common as you're making it out to be, since you have little or no reason to be standing that close to the edge of the platform, and you can easily avoid it after the first time it happens.

A glitch that you know is going to occur and is easily avoidable is not a huge deal.

You can use Rush Jet, but that does not make the glitch any better

Except that it, y'know, completely prevents it from happening. You're making a mountain out of a molehill here.

I you shoot the cloud bullets, they become real bullets, and are really fast!
The best thing is try to avoid them! But one touch and you're gone!
For me it's mostly the same as what you're saying with Gutsman stage!
Perfect Timing or you're dead! This is one of the most notorious thing in Megaman series!

They aren't all that fast, they pause before flying off, avoiding them requires nothing but a vertical jump, and their timing is much simpler and forgiving. Again, you are biased towards the first and second games because of your familiarity.

That's my opinion, not a fact!

You spoke it like a fact. And acting as if you can speak for "real fans" reeks of hubris.

His pattern is fairly simple to understand, but extremely hard to avoid!
I was talking about beating him without special, for me, using special on bosses is for pussies and noobs
(don't see this as a offence, it's just a opinion!)

You're a dick. Don't see this as an offence, it's just an opinion.

See how that doesn't work? Insulting someone and then calling it an opinion does not negate the insult. Not to mention you clearly weren't talking about yourself, you were speaking for "real fans".

I'd say this because for me this is fake difficult either!
A stage that makes it quite hard to avoid the boss!
The boss takes a lot of life with a single touch!
And the boss jump fucking high!

Fake difficulty does not mean any difficulty you think is unfair. Fake difficulty is difficulty that comes about from the developers hiding necessary information from the player (such as enemies in pits), though it can also include developers creating difficulty via unreasonable punishments (insta-death for nearly unavoidable hits) or difficulty created by bad controls.

Simply having a difficult pattern does not make a boss "fake difficult". Snake Man might qualify as "real difficult", but that's a matter of opinion.

Now, there are a couple places in the game that do employ fake difficulty (the ending of Shadow Man's level or the invisible platforms over pits in Shadow Man revisited), but your example wasn't very good (and the game doesn't depend on that type of difficulty as much as some other games in the series do). There are even some places that I'll come out and say are terrible level design, such as the area in Gemini Man revisited that's impossible to pass if you used up all your Rush Jet/Coil.

Try using oil man skate, if used correctly, it can become the perfect weapon!
It grant you invunerability to some enemies, one-hit ko on the same, and is perfect for speed-running!

1 weapon of 8 being interesting does not save the game's weapons from being bland and/or terrible (and personally, while I'll concede that it's interesting, Oil Man's weapon requires too much knowledge of terrain and/or split second timing to avoid getting yourself killed for me to call it a "good" weapon).

To be fair, I do consider Elec Man's weapon and the Magnet Beam to be interesting, though poorly implemented in the Beam's case.

The Wily levels are quite different from each other!
This makes them unique, not a copy of the 8-bosses levels!

Not really. The vast majority of Wily levels fall into one of two categories: techno-themed levels and castle-themed levels. Adding a second castle really only gives you more of those types of stages, while the revisits gave you a neon-colored space level, a ninja castle, an electric area, and whatever you want to call Needle Man's stage.

One time you say about most of players opinion, like they were the reference, the "common sense", as you say, and should be taken in regard!
Now you say the opposite! Don't you think it's quite contradictory!

Err, no? I'm sorry, once again I'm not sure I follow what you're saying.

Talking about common sense and talking about what "real gamers" do are not even close to the same thing.

Common sense is being able to notice obvious cues and being able to react reasonably. If a projectile is approaching you in a Megaman game and you have no other worries at the time, common sense dictates that you should try to jump over it. A lack of common sense would be to expect to avoid the bullet by walking straight into it or by yelling "I am impervious to your silly weapons".

In what you quoted, however, I was merely stating that I have seen numerous people on various boards (such as yourself) try to pass off Megaman 2 as a perfect game, when it is actually deeply flawed. Indeed, I've seen it often enough that I can assume it's fairly wide-spread opinion, which is why my assessment of the game is that it is "overrated".

(There's nothing wrong with being overrated; indeed, I enjoy a whole bunch of games I consider overrated, such as Chrono Trigger, Final Fantasy VII, Zelda: Ocarina of Time, and so forth)

You do realize that the special weapons were made for the bosses, not for the whole stage! Don't you?

Again with the hubris. Now you're professing that you speak for the developers' intentions. Dude, not cool.

If special weapons weren't intended to be used on anything but bosses, they would not have given different regular enemies throughout the series weaknesses to different special weapons. Not to mention several weapons throughout the series have effects that do not feel specially tailored to only hitting the boss weak to them (e.g. if Metal Blade were only intended for use against Bubble Man, why can you fire it at a downward angle when doing so during the Bubble Man fight would cause almost certain death from the spikes).

Making the weapon far different would make fans of the original upset with the game, and it would be change all the meaning of this being a remake!
You were expecting something clearly impossible!

They changed the locations of the capsules in MHX, which upset fans and was clearly impossible.
They completely overhauled the Sigma Stages in MHX, which upset fans and was clearly impossible.
They completely changed the story of MHX, which upset fans and was clearly impossible.
They gave MMPU a kiddy-makeover, which upset fans and was clearly impossible.
They added two new Robot Masters to MMPU, which upset fans and was clearly impossible.

They weren't shy about changing things when they felt the need. Make Guts Man's weapon a rock throw that destroys blocks, and you have a weapon that keeps most of the flavor and functionality of the original weapon while losing its ridiculous over-specification. I would hope that most fans would see that such a change as overall positive (indeed necessary to modern Megaman weapon design), and I doubt that it would hurt sales all that much.

In MMPU, you have a lot more of vision to see were are your feet, and how much of the hitbox you're already out!
I NES, it's quite hard to have that knowlege, and you have just a very limited range!
If your feet is more than half out of the hitbox, you fall!

In MMPU you can size it with your own eyes, without having to decorate the limit!

I officially give up trying to decypher what you are saying. Indeed, I'm probably done arguing with you entirely, since no amount of arguing is going to change your mind.

Bottom line: I don't like MMPU. It manages to keep the vast majority of my problems with the original game while adding new ones.

Maverick Hunter X is great, though. While X mode isn't as good as the original SNES release (though I will admit that the new Hadouken unlocking method is a big step up from the original), Vile mode is so different, interesting, and strategic compared to any other X universe character (not to mention fun) that I'm willing to overlook most of the game's shortcomings.

Protoman and Roll are easily downloadable!
You don't have almost any effort to make this!

My argument still more or less applies, since DLC cannot ever make up for sub-par content available in the base game.

 

[DaggerV]

My boots weren't in penguin stage, then Zero gives me the arm with a super charge in the end :/ wtf bbq different game.




/badgrish.

 

[Izzy011]

Maverick hunter was really good, I wish they made a remake of X4 in that style :c

 

[VMM]

a) They are programmed to do no such thing. They are on a timer.
b) If something isn't actually difficult, calling it fake difficulty is highly suspect.

The snakes are easily visible and do not lie about what they are and what they intend to do. You have plenty of time to process their existence and how you are going to deal with them before actually committing to the jump. Even if it were difficult, it would be real difficulty, not fake.

I said that what you called fake difficult is not difficult, assuming what you say,
this is no fake difficult.

Understand now how this argument fails?

That's because you know QM's stage by heart. People who are unfamiliar with it are required to make a long series of split-second decisions about what path to take through the level, and any wrong choice equals instant death. And even if they happen to have the necessary split-second reflexes, they'll still die several times since because they didn't enter a screen travelling in the right direction.

That's about as clear-cut as fake difficulty gets.

I understand this, but it's a characteristic intrinsic to megaman style of game.
Even in X series, it appears
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_XOfLrVOl4

It's not as common as you're making it out to be, since you have little or no reason to be standing that close to the edge of the platform, and you can easily avoid it after the first time it happens.

A glitch that you know is going to occur and is easily avoidable is not a huge deal.

Except that it, y'know, completely prevents it from happening. You're making a mountain out of a molehill here.

Tell me, how much in percentage of players do you think will use Rush Jet?
Not even 5% will use it! And for those, this glitch will be as common as hell.
This is a huge problem, no matter how much you try to make it better with poor excuses

They aren't all that fast, they pause before flying off, avoiding them requires nothing but a vertical jump, and their timing is much simpler and forgiving. Again, you are biased towards the first and second games because of your familiarity.

They are fast, and instant death, fake difficult as clear as it gets

You're a dick. Don't see this as an offence, it's just an opinion.

See how that doesn't work? Insulting someone and then calling it an opinion does not negate the insult. Not to mention you clearly weren't talking about yourself, you were speaking for "real fans".

The special weapons are there, but that does not make you need to use them.
Bosses go weak as hell, almost like cheating,
then when I say what I think, and what all people I see that play Megaman, as hardcore as it gets, say,
you get offended and make such a huge deal of it.
C'mon, it's there for non-hardcore gamers.
For grandmas and grandpas beat the bosses without difficult.
If you really consider yourself a hardcore gamer you should at least beat a game without using special on the bosses

It's like save state on emulators,
and if you say that save state is not on original software look at 3DS VC

Fake difficulty does not mean any difficulty you think is unfair. Fake difficulty is difficulty that comes about from the developers hiding necessary information from the player (such as enemies in pits), though it can also include developers creating difficulty via unreasonable punishments (insta-death for nearly unavoidable hits) or difficulty created by bad controls.


Now, there are a couple places in the game that do employ fake difficulty (the ending of Shadow Man's level or the invisible platforms over pits in Shadow Man revisited), but your example wasn't very good (and the game doesn't depend on that type of difficulty as much as some other games in the series do). There are even some places that I'll come out and say are terrible level design, such as the area in Gemini Man revisited that's impossible to pass if you used up all your Rush Jet/Coil.


Simply having a difficult pattern does not make a boss "fake difficult". Snake Man might qualify as "real difficult", but that's a matter of opinion.

Having a huge platform on the center of the stage just to make it harder to avoid him is for me clear fake difficult.
Tell me, where have you seen such deformed boss's floor

1 weapon of 8 being interesting does not save the game's weapons from being bland and/or terrible (and personally, while I'll concede that it's interesting, Oil Man's weapon requires too much knowledge of terrain and/or split second timing to avoid getting yourself killed for me to call it a "good" weapon).

To be fair, I do consider Elec Man's weapon and the Magnet Beam to be interesting, though poorly implemented in the Beam's case.

See, even you see good weapons on this game.
Being honest, I never use specials, like I said,
for me, and for every hardcore megaman gamer, except you, that I know, read, or saw,
say Special Weapons are for pussies and non-hardcore gamers.

I just use them when I just can get a item trought that, or in challenges that need to use them.
Outter of these terms, I never use them

Not really. The vast majority of Wily levels fall into one of two categories: techno-themed levels and castle-themed levels. Adding a second castle really only gives you more of those types of stages, while the revisits gave you a neon-colored space level, a ninja castle, an electric area, and whatever you want to call Needle Man's stage.

They don't always go in these categories, and even when they do, they have lots of differences in levels design and in shapes,

Err, no? I'm sorry, once again I'm not sure I follow what you're saying.


Talking about common sense and talking about what "real gamers" do are not even close to the same thing.

Common sense is being able to notice obvious cues and being able to react reasonably. If a projectile is approaching you in a Megaman game and you have no other worries at the time, common sense dictates that you should try to jump over it. A lack of common sense would be to expect to avoid the bullet by walking straight into it or by yelling "I am impervious to your silly weapons".

In what you quoted, however, I was merely stating that I have seen numerous people on various boards (such as yourself) try to pass off Megaman 2 as a perfect game, when it is actually deeply flawed. Indeed, I've seen it often enough that I can assume it's fairly wide-spread opinion, which is why my assessment of the game is that it is "overrated".

(There's nothing wrong with being overrated; indeed, I enjoy a whole bunch of games I consider overrated, such as Chrono Trigger, Final Fantasy VII, Zelda: Ocarina of Time, and so forth)

I think you're changing the meaning of common sense.
What does common sense say about Megaman? The best in the series is Megaman 2.
When do you take in consideration the common sense? when it suits you

Again with the hubris. Now you're professing that you speak for the developers' intentions. Dude, not cool.

If special weapons weren't intended to be used on anything but bosses, they would not have given different regular enemies throughout the series weaknesses to different special weapons. Not to mention several weapons throughout the series have effects that do not feel specially tailored to only hitting the boss weak to them (e.g. if Metal Blade were only intended for use against Bubble Man, why can you fire it at a downward angle when doing so during the Bubble Man fight would cause almost certain death from the spikes).

I'll search to find where have I read of it.
But I'm sure I read that developers made special weapons to make bosses easier, and make a chance that you'd have a weapon strong against each of the eight bosses.
If I find it I'll post here.

They changed the locations of the capsules in MHX, which upset fans and was clearly impossible.

They have changed wich part is where, but the capsules where almost in the same places of the original version

They completely overhauled the Sigma Stages in MHX, which upset fans and was clearly impossible.

They almost didn't change it, but
did they change the specials?

They completely changed the story of MHX, which upset fans and was clearly impossible.

The story is preety much the same,
but now it's with anime and better told,
I ask again, did they change the specials?

They gave MMPU a kiddy-makeover, which upset fans and was clearly impossible.

And the original Megaman did look so mature.
Grow up kid

They added two new Robot Masters to MMPU, which upset fans and was clearly impossible.

Wrong, these are all robot masters on Megaman 1-9

http://bulk.destructoid.com/ul/user/2/26761-129535-megaman9articlejpg-620x.jpg

They weren't shy about changing things when they felt the need. Make Guts Man's weapon a rock throw that destroys blocks, and you have a weapon that keeps most of the flavor and functionality of the original weapon while losing its ridiculous over-specification. I would hope that most fans would see that such a change as overall positive (indeed necessary to modern Megaman weapon design), and I doubt that it would hurt sales all that much.

All changes weren't outrageous, to say the truth pretty much conservatives,
that's why they were liked by fans.
You're asking for a drastic change on special weapons that sure was not going to happen

I officially give up trying to decypher what you are saying. Indeed, I'm probably done arguing with you entirely, since no amount of arguing is going to change your mind.

I guess we should stop already, I'm not gonna convince you, neither you are going to convince me.
Megaman 1 of NES is going to e-shop, hope you like it.

My argument still more or less applies, since DLC cannot ever make up for sub-par content available in the base game.

The first form of Roll is not a DLC,
You can get her from the main game.

And as I said, Protoman is unlockable by beating all the challenges.
I just showed you a easier way of getting them since you are lazy to get them trough effort

 

[spweasel]

I can't believe I'm even responding to this, especially when it's been the better part of a month since my last post.

I said that what you called fake difficult is not difficult, assuming what you say,
this is no fake difficult.

Understand now how this argument fails?

Umm, no I don't. In fact, I have no idea exactly what the hell you're trying to say. Your English is extremely bad.

If you're really trying to say that Quickman's stage isn't difficult, I have to laugh at your absurdity. It's one of the hardest stages in the franchise. Yell "Quickman's stage is easy" at a video game convention as see how many people think you're joking. Even if you've mastered the stage, you should immediately recognize that it's not an easy stage due to its completely unforgiving nature.

I understand this, but it's a characteristic intrinsic to megaman style of game.
Even in X series, it appears

First off, that level is only about half as difficult as QM's stage, and it's still an obnoxious stage with a high level of fake difficulty.

Tell me, how much in percentage of players do you think will use Rush Jet?
Not even 5% will use it! And for those, this glitch will be as common as hell.
This is a huge problem, no matter how much you try to make it better with poor excuses

Be glad I can't reach through the screen and strangle you right now.

Just because you don't use Rush Jet doesn't mean that 95% of players don't. Roughly 50% of players choosing a random boss order will have Rush Jet by the time they do Snakeman's stage. 100% of people with Snakeman's weakness will have it due to it being obtained from Needleman. Many (dare I say most) players who aren't stupid or masochists will resort to Rush Jet for that screen after dying several times, bug or no. Why would you assume that players won't use all the tools given to them by the developers, especially when they are frustrated with something?

And besides, that bug is not as common as you are making it out to be, and you aren't helping your argument at all by claiming it is. After my last post, I beat Snakeman's stage from a new game 4 times just to see if there might be some truth to what you were saying. Here are my results:

Number of times bug encountered, even though I was playing fast and loose: 1 (intentionally triggered to make sure it hadn't been removed in the version I was playing)
Total number of deaths on that screen: 2 (one time I just kinda missed a platform I has jumping on)

For someone who usually doesn't bother going through that screen the hard way, 2 deaths in 5-6 runs (I had to continue while fighting Snakeman once or twice) is hardly indicative of difficulty, and indeed points to a lack of fake difficulty.

And you mentioned that Snakeman is extremely hard? I always cheese through Snakeman with his weakness, and I figured out his pattern well enough to beat him with only minor damage within 6 tries (and it only took that long because I was approaching the problem wrong). As soon as you realize the trick is to hold the middle of the room, he's not hard at all, even with only the Megabuster.

They are fast, and instant death, fake difficult as clear as it gets

No on both counts. They aren't really all that fast (especially since you can see where they are going to be flying before they start moving once you've shot them the first time), and they aren't instant death unless you are close to an edge.

The special weapons are there, but that does not make you need to use them.
Bosses go weak as hell, almost like cheating,

Which in no way implies that you shouldn't use them, either. The developers obviously intended using boss weaknesses to be an option, so taking advantage of that is, by definition, absolutely nothing like cheating. It's not like the pause bug in MM1, which is like cheating.

If you won't use them because you don't want to, that's your thing and more power to you. But realize that by intentionally gimping yourself, you lose all rights to call a game difficult when it would be trivially easy by using all the tools the developer gave you. It's like if I were complaining about Super Mario Bros. being hard when I refuse to press the run button - it's not difficulty, it's user error.

Also, just because the game is too easy for you when played normally doesn't mean you have the right to insult people who don't have your super-special-awesome skillz and play the game using every tool the developer gave them.

then when I say what I think, and what all people I see that play Megaman, as hardcore as it gets, say,
you get offended and make such a huge deal of it.
C'mon, it's there for non-hardcore gamers.
For grandmas and grandpas beat the bosses without difficult.
If you really consider yourself a hardcore gamer you should at least beat a game without using special on the bosses

Leaving aside the absurd assertion that "hardcore" gamers don't use speacial weapons, you weren't talking for "hardcore gamers", you were speaking for "true fans". Trying to equate the two reeks of elitism, which is something I rightfully find offensive.

And claiming that most people into the Megaman series are hardcore gamers... where do you get this stuff?

Having a huge platform on the center of the stage just to make it harder to avoid him is for me clear fake difficult.
Tell me, where have you seen such deformed boss's floor

You just don't get it, do you? Did you even read my posts? Simply having a stage obstacle in a boss fight does not mean fake difficulty in any way. Just because you suck too hard to get his simple pattern down (no seriously, you have no right to claim you are a hardcore gamer if you don't have it down within three continues), does not mean that the game is hiding things from you.

See, even you see good weapons on this game.
Being honest, I never use specials, like I said,
for me, and for every hardcore megaman gamer, except you, that I know, read, or saw,
say Special Weapons are for pussies and non-hardcore gamers.

I just use them when I just can get a item trought that, or in challenges that need to use them.
Outter of these terms, I never use them

You really need to talk to more people, then. I cannot believe you have never seen a Megaman fan advocate Special Weapon usage. Go read the board on GameFAQs or something. Or are they all "pussies" to you?

Good gravy, I'm thinking that I might need to add your name to the Thesaurus under the entry for "Elitist".

I think you're changing the meaning of common sense.
What does common sense say about Megaman? The best in the series is Megaman 2.
When do you take in consideration the common sense? when it suits you

How in the hell does common sense say that Megaman 2 is the best in the series? Common sense and popular opinion are two completely separate, often 100% incompatible things.

I'll search to find where have I read of it.
But I'm sure I read that developers made special weapons to make bosses easier, and make a chance that you'd have a weapon strong against each of the eight bosses.
If I find it I'll post here.

Umm, yeah. That won't cut it. You need to find something that not only says they were designed for fighting bosses, it needs to also say that they were created without any intention of being used during stages in order for your argument to work.

Good luck with that.

They have changed wich part is where, but the capsules where almost in the same places of the original version

Either way, they changed something "sacred" to fans - the ideal boss order.

They almost didn't change it, but
did they change the specials?

What do you mean, "they almost didn't change it"? It's vastly different than it used to be.

And why are Special Weapons so much more sacred than the entire final stages of the game? As far as changes go, completely redoing several stages has to be bigger than making minor alterations to one ability so that it doesn't suck so bad.

The story is preety much the same,
but now it's with anime and better told,
I ask again, did they change the specials?

They completely derailed Dr. Cain's character and killed him off when he's supposed to be in the plot through at least the third game. And again, how is making major changes to the canon somehow acceptable while making a fairly minor change to how one Special works verboten?

And the original Megaman did look so mature.
Grow up kid

... Because I mentioned that the game was given a childish appearance, I'm a child now? You really need to work on your insulting skills.

The original Megaman was neither "kiddy" nor "mature". It used a style common for its day. It most certainly did not intentionally make everybody's head stupidly large specifically to appeal to younger players. In fact, I can't think of any other game in the franchise that chose that art direction, including Megaman 7 and 8 (where it would have been trivially easy to use).

Making Megaman that childish was something inserted into this game wholesale.

Wrong, these are all robot masters on Megaman 1-9

http://bulk.destruct...clejpg-620x.jpg

Sooo.... You're saying they weren't added to the game, but they were there all along? Weird, every copy of the NES version I've ever played didn't have them.

Back in the day, every Robot Master had an ID number, including Protoman, Megaman, and even Roll. Adding new Masters to the beginning of the series throws that off. Plus, if we are working on the assumption that changing major things would upset fans (and is thus impossible, by your questionable logic), adding two Robot Masters is a pretty huge change.

All changes weren't outrageous, to say the truth pretty much conservatives,
that's why they were liked by fans.
You're asking for a drastic change on special weapons that sure was not going to happen

Changing a Special from being picking up and throwing blocks to simply throwing blocks that it creates itself is hardly a major change. Especially since real fans will never ever even use it, amirite?

And the changes they made are pretty large. Not changing something so obviously broken was a pretty big misstep on their part, in my opinion.

The first form of Roll is not a DLC,
You can get her from the main game.

And as I said, Protoman is unlockable by beating all the challenges.
I just showed you a easier way of getting them since you are lazy to get them trough effort

Yes, because not playing a game to 100% completion because I didn't enjoy it somehow makes me lazy. Yup yup, makes perfect sense.

Incidentally, I did download the characters and try them out, and I have to say you were talking out of your butt when you were praising them. The different costumes for Roll are purely cosmetic (Whee! Dressup!) and both characters are just as boring and 1-dimentional as the Robot Masters (if not more, since they don't have items tailor-made so that only they can collect them).

If you want to see a special mode done well, look at things like Vile Mode or even Trevor Mode in Castlevania: Curse of Darkness (which is more "okay" than "great", but it's the first thing that sprung to mind). Give the players something fully fleshed-out and interesting, not a mode where you do nothing but remove the interesting, deep game mechanics and replace them with 1-2 gimmicks that grow old after the third time you use them.