Islamaphobia

[Endogene]

looks like the topic is sort of going of course, actually i thought it would go this way when i saw the title and considering the somewhat recent events but i wont drift of to far the current sujet.

Terrorism is imposing one's ideas by fear, and therefor those who do this should suffer eternal damnation.
Now this opinion of mine is not limited to terrorism, i consider every act that forces an individual to adopt a certain ideas wrog, be it by lies that make us fear ,threats of repercution or by charming us by their status (FU tom cruise) as horrible as terrorism

Now considering the islam i would say that it is no more different than chretianity, both have books with guidlines on how to act, morals. And in both those books there are some morals that now a days are far from accepteble, ethic, even going against what we consider the human rights.
Other than those morals most of those in these books are acceptable and some i would even say they are good

I've read the bible, i have yet to read the coran but i'm sure its no different.
Some part really shocked me, if a cristian would be to apply the bible litteraly, christians would be horrible same goes for muslims

I am as afraid of those extremist cristians as of those extremist muslims

I hate religions for imposing people how to have to act

 

[Prophet]

Yes I mean that purely figuratively. The Muslim extremist sets a fire because a cartoonist depicted Muhammad (pbuh). Thats clear cut reasoning, they are showing you the knife. I'm not speaking on the morality of the action, I'm simply saying they use less of a guise. I'm also not arguing that Islam is some how more "good" or purer than western world, I am simply saying that our own immorality is so great that we are in no position to point fingers. We are far from worthy enough to be casting any stones; thats my point and thats it. We are not humanitarians, we are serving no greater good. We ruled the world, if it's their turn now then we should just move aside. Otherwise American vanity and it's sense of entitlement are going to be the death of us.

So please explain me the "clear cut reasoning" when they blow up Ahmed Massoud? When they blow up innocent civilians? When they target the Twin Towers on 9/11? Actually, in essence I agree with you, terrorist intentions are rather obvious. Terrorists live to invoke terror and fear among the public. All to gain more and more power.


They are at war. We look at it and can't quite grasp the brutal etiquette of war, but civilians die in wars. It's a fact that history is quick to point out. Some men die for affiliation others die for mere proximity. Thats clear cut to me. If we can get pass the "why" and "how could they" of the situation we would be able to see parallels between the war they wage on us and the ware we wage on them. When we get hung up on the morality and justification we are always going to get lost. Morality and justification are very ethnocentric concepts, a man would have to find himself entrenched in any given culture before he could accurately state what drives them to kill. So suffice to say, they are at war and they are going to kill those they consider to be their enemies. They might take a man in-front of a camera and decapitate him. Gruesome as it is, it still has a transparency that we lack in our own war time actions. We torture men until their hearts stop, until the shock to the system is simply to great for the body to carry on. Of course, we'd never televise it. It would never even be made public knowledge, if it weren't for the probing of out own vigilant press. We drop bombs, last time I check bombs kill indiscriminatory. You hear of the staggering numbers of our troops that die, but US forces won't even allow anyone in to count the dead Arabs. To this day we only have estimates (This was still true the last time I checked into it).

As cliché as it is, one man's terrorist really is another man's freedom fighter.

QUOTE

The seeds of corruption sprout forth from the hearts of man. It is inescapable. The charge I lay at the feet of our society is this: The bureaucrat holds no qualm when he cloaks the corruption and sells it to you as democracy.

Very nice, elegant words yet I do not see what facts and evidence you use to substantiate such assertions.

History is proof enough. That and the fact that all attempts to construct a utopia, have fallen to pieces due to man's inability to leash his spirit. Our intent is never quite in line with our nature, we are still animal's in many ways. This animal instinct is the basis of corruption, our will to horde and conquer are innate tools that have helped us survive. To create a society where survival is promised, where the good of the many is equally the good of the few; these are concepts we could consider as forms of higher evolution. We simply aren't ready too assume that mantle yet. We are still too primitive, but I digress.

@Xcalibur: Great post. As far as the cartoonist comment I will have to defer to you, my Islamic knowledge is far from absolute. Would you elaborate however? The bible has a passage that advocates the killing of anyone who wears glasses (Leviticus, I believe), this is of course an archaic and completely disregarded passage. I don't think anyone would argue it as a tenet of the religion, however there are equally archaic principles that are quite revered. Is the guidelines regarding the depiction of Muhammad (pbuh) pillars of the Islamic faith? Or are these also often disregarded within the faith. For the moderate, rank and file Muslim how offensive are the cartoons? It's hard for westerners like me to get purely unfiltered incite so forgive my ignorance.

And if anyone else wants to tackle that question, by all means feel free.

 

[WelshLadGriff]

You are a fucking dick.
First of all, your assumption that all terrorists are muslim couldn't be any further from the truth.
You don't call the tons of missiles sent into palestine by Isreal to kill leaders of opposing extremist parties but instead killing and destroying the lives of many innocent palestinians terrorrism?
I feel this is just as bad as 9/11 and happens even more frequently.

The definition of Terrorism is:

Terrorism means activities against persons, organizations or property of any nature committed by an individual or individuals acting on behalf of any foreign person or foreign interest: 1. that involve the following or preparation for the following:
a. use or threat of force or violence; or
b. commission or threat of a dangerous act; or
c. commission or threat of an act that interferes with or disrupts an
electronic communication, information, or mechanical system; and

2. when at least one of the following applies:
a. the effect is to intimidate or coerce a government or the civilian
population or any segment thereof, or to disrupt any segment of the
economy; or
b. it appears that the intent is to intimidate or coerce a government,
or further political, ideological, religious, social or economic
objectives or to express (or express opposition to) a philosophy
or ideology.

This is a general expression. It could apply to anyone.
It does not say TERRORISTS ARE SHIT-TURBAN WEARING ARABS WHO SCREAM ALLAHU AKBAR AND BLOW YOU AND THEMSELVES UP OUT OF SPITE.


And one part strikes out to me in that quote

QUOTEor to express (or express opposition to) a philosophy
or ideology.

Wouldn't you agree that the palestinians who you so tactly defined as shit-wearing allahu akbar screaming terrorist, get killed, murdered and have their lives destroyed on a daily basis. The palestinians also believe that Jerusalem is their holy city and it is occupied by israelians who refuse to even share? Wouldn't you express opposition to that? A group of "infidels" who keep you away from your HOLY land.


Also, you have to understand that Islam glorifies death in for the sake of allah. You have so many young men all wanting to go to heaven and do what is right by their god no matter what it takes and then we have older men who corrupt them and brainwash them into believing that what their doing is right. Thats why most suicide bombers are muslim, because its the only religion that promises you good after a death like that.

Also, I resent the fact that people assume all muslims are violent. How come no one has accepted that every group of people has its extremes? Do all teenagers have unprotected sex and have kids only because there is a high teen pregnancy rate? Are all adults murderers, adulterers, commit fraud, pedofiles, only because there are so many sick people out there?

I have lived my whole life as a muslim and I'm pretty sure that besides praying 5 times a day and not drinking, I don't do things any different than you.


You're just a scared ignorant fool who hasn't done any research into the matter.

Frankly, I'm not really bothered about reasearching any of this shit at all. All i know is none of this shit wouldn't of happened if our troops got sent into Iraq (I think, It's been 5 years so i can't remember). I can't really care for anyone else at the moment.
But at the end of the day, I hate terrorists. I'm not saying i depict muslims as terrorists, because if i am, i'm sorry for causing you dispair =/

Oh yeah, And I can't see why our troops are there, because it's not even our fight. I say let the two 'factions' work things out, and if they end up nuking each other in the process, so be it.

 

[mastermanna123]

A terrorist is someone that causes terror and fear.

A robber once walked in to rob a store, and before he could attempt the holdup, he sees a cop pulling into the parking lot. Shear terror and fear have struck him. The cops in the car terrify the robber.
Therefore, the cop is the terrorist in this scenario.

If I'm called a terrorist just because of my religion, race, or my diversity, in a situation where I had not commited any crime...I'll gladly take on the name of terrorist.
But there will always be a straight fact, that me, and other reasonable people will know: I'm just another person. I'm innocent. I don't deserve to deal with people like that.

And one day, in the end, the racists, stereotypers, and people who think badly of others based on false accusations will all know the truth as well, but won't accept it because they have too much pride, but not enough to admit it. Silencing then for all eternity upon the subject.

I go to a highschool in the US. Don't ever for 1 second think its easy being a Bengali Muslim.

I deal with shit from assholes every single day. Being blamed for shit I didn't do, rather just for my religion.

It's not fair, and no one deserves to be treated like that.
But I hold my head high, and walk down those hallways. Why? Because I know I'm right, and everyone else will know one day as well.

 

[feds4u]

These two cartoons best represent my feelings on the subject of Muslims and Islam.

Painful truth.

Its really funny to see a genocidal religion complain about being "persecuted."

 

[mastermanna123]

These two cartoons best represent my feelings on the subject of Muslims and Islam.

Painful truth.

Its really funny to see a genocidal religion complain about being "persecuted."

Sigh.
I give up.
*facepalmheaddesk MAX POWER!*

 

[Eternal Myst]

These two cartoons best represent my feelings on the subject of Muslims and Islam.

Painful truth.

Its really funny to see a genocidal religion complain about being "persecuted."

Failure?

Seriously fuck you,and everyone like you.
This topic is really sad.

 

[Prophet]

These two cartoons best represent my feelings on the subject of Muslims and Islam.

Painful truth.

Its really funny to see a genocidal religion complain about being "persecuted."

Good job, making the U.S. of A. look real good when you post stuff like that.

I wish someone would tattoo a disclaimer on these asshole's foreheads:

The bullshit that I may spew in no way represents the views and opinions of my nation.

When you start a arguement with, "These two cartoons best represent my feelings on..." you're almost certain to make your self look like a complete idiot.

 

[A4NoOb]

I would just like someone to explain to me where the notion of generalizing all muslims as terrorists came into the topic. Nobody has ever said this. I have never said this, but this is what you guys are all complaining about. It is a separate issue, and frankly irrelevant to this issue.

 

[Goloki]

I think that all religions are equally bad. Just my two cents on the matter.

 

[Sonicslasher]

I wouldn't touch this topic with a 30 yard stick!

 

[A4NoOb]

They are at war. We look at it and can't quite grasp the brutal etiquette of war, but civilians die in wars. It's a fact that history is quick to point out. Some men die for affiliation others die for mere proximity. Thats clear cut to me. If we can get pass the "why" and "how could they" of the situation we would be able to see parallels between the war they wage on us and the ware we wage on them. When we get hung up on the morality and justification we are always going to get lost. Morality and justification are very ethnocentric concepts, a man would have to find himself entrenched in any given culture before he could accurately state what drives them to kill. So suffice to say, they are at war and they are going to kill those they consider to be their enemies. They might take a man in-front of a camera and decapitate him. Gruesome as it is, it still has a transparency that we lack in our own war time actions. We torture men until their hearts stop, until the shock to the system is simply to great for the body to carry on. Of course, we'd never televise it. It would never even be made public knowledge, if it weren't for the probing of out own vigilant press. We drop bombs, last time I check bombs kill indiscriminatory. You hear of the staggering numbers of our troops that die, but US forces won't even allow anyone in to count the dead Arabs. To this day we only have estimates (This was still true the last time I checked into it).

As cliché as it is, one man's terrorist really is another man's freedom fighter.

When you say "civilians die in wars" you make it sound unintentional. Terrorists INTENTIONALLY target civilians. But I don't think you understand the premise of this disscussion, I mean the things you say are outrageous and have no substantiation whatsoever. You want to prove one of your rants then please show facts, not more philosophy.

 

[Prophet]

They are at war. We look at it and can't quite grasp the brutal etiquette of war, but civilians die in wars. It's a fact that history is quick to point out. Some men die for affiliation others die for mere proximity. Thats clear cut to me. If we can get pass the "why" and "how could they" of the situation we would be able to see parallels between the war they wage on us and the ware we wage on them. When we get hung up on the morality and justification we are always going to get lost. Morality and justification are very ethnocentric concepts, a man would have to find himself entrenched in any given culture before he could accurately state what drives them to kill. So suffice to say, they are at war and they are going to kill those they consider to be their enemies. They might take a man in-front of a camera and decapitate him. Gruesome as it is, it still has a transparency that we lack in our own war time actions. We torture men until their hearts stop, until the shock to the system is simply to great for the body to carry on. Of course, we'd never televise it. It would never even be made public knowledge, if it weren't for the probing of out own vigilant press. We drop bombs, last time I check bombs kill indiscriminatory. You hear of the staggering numbers of our troops that die, but US forces won't even allow anyone in to count the dead Arabs. To this day we only have estimates (This was still true the last time I checked into it).

As cliché as it is, one man's terrorist really is another man's freedom fighter.

When you say "civilians die in wars" you make it sound unintentional. Terrorists INTENTIONALLY target civilians. But I don't think you understand the premise of this disscussion, I mean the things you say are outrageous and have no substantiation whatsoever. You want to prove one of your rants then please show facts, not more philosophy.

I have already given my opinion on your original post and I gave a link and video of Styen to substantiated it. From there I launched a counter argument: If Islam is to become the worlds new unified overlord then who are we to stop it? Your response was, "they are bad and oppressive". My answer was, "they are no worst then we are". From there I've been fielding various questions and rebutting the flawed logic of the angry few.

You are right, my post are heavy on philosophy. I don't feel very comfortable posting cartoons or links as "proof." Proof can be doctored and is often skewed, philosophy on the other hand is far less absolute. There is a logical progression, A to B, B to C. If something doesn't make sense than it allows for disagreement and discussion. Where as proof is the end of the conversation, I'll post an article explaining how terrorist don't mean to kill civilians then you'll post an article exclaiming how terrorist are plotting to kill civilians right now. It's a futile effort. You'll retreat to your propaganda and I'll grasp at the first liberal rag Google throws me. I'm not looking to have a virtual screaming match, are you?

Since you seem so eager, I'll bite. I don't believe "terrorist" intentionally kill "innocent" people. Now I would go on a long diatribe about how relative the term "innocent" is but you seem to be at your ropes end, so I'll spare you. My view can be summed up as this, two buildings at the heart of the countries financial center were targeted and destroyed. Any thing else was simply collateral damage. If killing the highest number of innocent people was the objective surely there were better places to strike. After all, no-one could have anticipated the towers would actually fall from the impact.

Wait. Pause. Let me give you a link: http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2006/09/11/060911fa_fact3

"Osama bin Laden later boasted that he was the only one in the group’s upper hierarchy who had anticipated the magnitude of the wound that Al Qaeda inflicted on America, but he also admitted that he was surprised by the towers’ collapse."

There is a difference between not caring how many civilians die and intentionally targeting civilians. One is derived from desperation, the other is rooted in ill intent.

 

[Lazycus]

Why are so many people getting so upset over those 2 cartoons that feds4u posted? If you can't see at least some truth in them then you really don't have an open mind.

If your religion (any religion) has it's 'leaders' calling for the death of someone based on a cartoon (or book, or commentary, etc.) and promising those who deliver the death a better afterlife then you should really question the true motives of those 'leaders'.

This gets us right back to the original topic. Why is it OK to criticize some religions and not others? Can't we all agree that all religions have faults and all religions have individuals that do shameful things in the name of their religion and deserve to be reported on?

 

[Hitto]

You know that in the riots over those cartoons, people died?

"He died because a drawing made him angry" is something I'd feel pretty fucking stupid about in the afterlife!

Anyway, thread turns to shit.

 

[feds4u]

For all of you complaining about the cartoons I posted.. Please tell me how I'm wrong.

I've heard your best arguements and it seems you haven't a leg to stand on.

I have nothing against the Islamic community. I just want the truth to be addressed. There is a lot of violence and genocidal talk in the Islamic world.

Have you ever seen television from the middle east? Rabid anti semitism and anti american feelings are a daily occurrence. Remember, in muslim nations my country is considered "the great satan." But I guess I'm just supposed to be cool with that.

And was the muslim outrage over a few stupid cartoons not unjust? Especially considering their depiction of rival religions?

You know that in the riots over those cartoons, people died?

Yes, people actually died.

Muslim cartoon fury claims lives

People died over a fucking cartoon.

Learn the truth about Islam: The religion of "peace."

Islam: The Religion of "Peace"

 

[Hitto]

I see what u did thar

 

[A4NoOb]

I have already given my opinion on your original post and I gave a link and video of Styen to substantiated it. From there I launched a counter argument: If Islam is to become the worlds new unified overlord then who are we to stop it? Your response was, "they are bad and oppressive". My answer was, "they are no worst then we are". From there I've been fielding various questions and rebutting the flawed logic of the angry few.

May I suggest wrong assumption, wrong conclusion. This was never about if Mark Steyn was right, this was about if he was allowed to post it. And thanks to people like kikuchiyo who assumes any one with a controversial point of view is a bigot, MacLeans is getting sued. If we live in a world where facts and the truth is labeled discrimination or "Islamaphobia" ergo to the point where they are illegal then THAT is the height of corruption you so elegantly dwelled on.

You are right, my post are heavy on philosophy. I don't feel very comfortable posting cartoons or links as "proof." Proof can be doctored and is often skewed, philosophy on the other hand is far less absolute. There is a logical progression, A to B, B to C. If something doesn't make sense than it allows for disagreement and discussion. Where as proof is the end of the conversation, I'll post an article explaining how terrorist don't mean to kill civilians then you'll post an article exclaiming how terrorist are plotting to kill civilians right now. It's a futile effort. You'll retreat to your propaganda and I'll grasp at the first liberal rag Google throws me. I'm not looking to have a virtual screaming match, are you?

Since you seem so eager, I'll bite. I don't believe "terrorist" intentionally kill "innocent" people. Now I would go on a long diatribe about how relative the term "innocent" is but you seem to be at your ropes end, so I'll spare you. My view can be summed up as this, two buildings at the heart of the countries financial center were targeted and destroyed. Any thing else was simply collateral damage. If killing the highest number of innocent people was the objective surely there were better places to strike. After all, no-one could have anticipated the towers would actually fall from the impact.

After this I have come to the conclusion that I am talking to a radical. No sir, the people in the twin towers were satan's babies spawning from evil Bush's plan to steal moar oil. Yes folks those 3000 people didn't have a family of their own, a genuine life of their own but were the height of deserving targets of terrorist actions. Thank you Prophet, your philosophical analysis should be sent to the government for some truly revolutionizing morals.

QUOTE

Wait. Pause. Let me give you a link: http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2006/09/11/060911fa_fact3

"Osama bin Laden later boasted that he was the only one in the group’s upper hierarchy who had anticipated the magnitude of the wound that Al Qaeda inflicted on America, but he also admitted that he was surprised by the towers’ collapse."

There is a difference between not caring how many civilians die and intentionally targeting civilians. One is derived from desperation, the other is rooted in ill intent.

I don't know where exactly you are going with this. Are you suggesting in some way that Osama did not intend to target civilians? I was watching a News program during another protest of Islamic "moderate" muslims in the Middle East
holding the sign "Anyone who doesn't believe Islam is a peaceful religion should be killed!" Now obviously I'm not generalizing because I believe that muslims in North America are not so extreme but the irony truly speaks for itself.

 

[Prophet]

You have quite a knack for twisting your argument into a indecipherable knot. When we argue intent, I best you at it and what do you do? Switch the argument to morality. If I follow your lead there then I'm being overly philosophical. Towers fell and people died. Did the terrorist care how many died? No. Was their sole reason for hitting the towers, to kill people. No.

After this I have come to the conclusion that I am talking to someone who only cares about appearing to be right. You cite a sign as some type of proof. I've seen signs that say "hang that n*gger" Should I assume that is the mantra of all white people?

You didn't come here to debate, you came to find like minded people who brandish the same ethnocentric banner as yourself. Mission accomplished, you win.

 

[A4NoOb]

You have quite a knack for twisting your argument into a indecipherable knot. When we argue intent, I best you at it and what do you do? Switch the argument to morality. If I follow your lead there then I'm being overly philosophical. Towers fell and people died. Did the terrorist care how many died? No. Was their sole reason for hitting the towers, to kill people. No.

After this I have come to the conclusion that I am talking to someone who only cares about appearing to be right. You cite a sign as some type of proof. I've seen signs that say "hang that n*gger" Should I assume that is the mantra of all white people?

You didn't come here to debate, you came to find like minded people who brandish the same ethnocentric banner as yourself. Mission accomplished, you win.

Exuse me for being overly emotional when you blatently imply that the victims of 9/11 weren't innocent. If their intent was to NOT kill civilians then how in any way would you deconstruct the goals of the hijacking? What you have cited doesn't add any credibility to your claims. Wounding America MEANS that there will be deaths. Deaths of targeted innocent civilians. Do you honestly expect that terrorists fully loaded with bombs just blow themselves up to no avail? They want to kill as many people as possible. One "quote" (which I'm not going to take as factual evidence) does not compare to the brute fact that terrorists blow themselves killing unnecessary numbers of innocent people with them. Or are you suggesting this is merely a coincidence?