Ground Zero Mosque. Yes or No?

[431unknown]

I have a simple take on this really. America was built on one thing, Freedom.

Actually, if you do your research, you'll find that America was built largely on the backs of slaves and the slaughter and theft of Native Americans. Please, save this 'myth' of America for the less informed. Let's try and keep this discussion based on facts.

As if that weren't enough, the myth also obscures the reality of American prosperity: that it is not solely or even primarily the product of American ingenuity and the inherent greatness of the American people, but of brute force, brutally applied. The story of American wealth begins with a continent rich in natural resources, devoid of natural enemies and protected from the rest of the world by two oceans, conquered through genocide and developed by slavery, fed by the most rapid destruction of resources mankind has ever seen, and growing by hammering the rest of the world, murdering innocent people and stealing the resources to which the victims and their progeny should have been entitled. For this you congratulate yourselves, and your politicians congratulate you, as righteous Christians whose worldly wealth signifies your holiness. Or something.

Here, for some self-edification...

http://winterpatriot.blogspot.com/2010/04/...can-people.html

Let's just get all the bullshit about what America is and isn't out of the way and proceed from there...shall we?

Thats nice,if you feel that way then why don't you move to the middle east or maybe just shut your mouth. To think that some solider problly died today in some god forsaken shit hole just to defend your right to voice that yours and his nation is shit. Just that thought makes me sick you little puke!

You see, your problem here is that the facts of the matter have nothing to do with how I feel about anything. They are facts, and they won't change one way or the other no matter how I, or anyone else, feels about them. And if you really think there are soldiers somewhere defending my right to freedom of speech, please explain how? By killing innocent civilians? Or even by killing some 'terrorists' in a distant country? The ONLY ones who can take away my freedoms are those who hold power, and in the context you are speaking, that would be our own government. It's funny that while at the same time you would suggest there are soldiers dying to defend my freedom of speech, in the same breath, you'd tell me to shut up because you don't like what I'm saying or the FACTS I'm conveying. I guess you're just too caught up or too emotional about the subject to see the fucking irony in that, eh? If you truly do believe in the freedom of speech, and that people are indeed dying to defend that freedom, then how is it you somehow think they're only dying to protect 'popular' speech? Wow...I guess you can't actually refute anything that's been said and this is the best you can do...tell people to shut up because after all, there're people dying to protect my right to do otherwise. Or not.

1: it's not that I don't like the facts that your conveying I never stated your facts were false, I'm tired of your kind having to restate those facts over and over again like it's some kind of debt that we need to repay to the rest of the world. I never started a war,I never Killed any Native Americans or stole their land, or owned any slaves. I don't feel I or the rest of the people of this nation need to apologize to any one.

2. contrary to your belief that soldier did die for you, they died believing that he or she were doing good for their country and protecting the rights of it's citizens. Sure you can argue against this all you want but I was there once. The men I served with all had a great feeling that they were doing something for their nation, How about you have you ever served? Do you ever have the urge to do something good for your country or are you one of the ones who sits with his hand out looking to see what it will do for you?

3. Killing innocent civilians? I don't know where your trying to come at me with that and all I can say is shit happens and bad things happened to good people every day.

4. the only reason you and I have no power is because we secede it to others and some times bad decisions made. But just because we give them power it does not make it absolute. You see the beauty of our constitution is not that it gives us rights but rather it reminds us that we have free will (something which the king sought to suppress) then it's the rights that it gives us to use to defend our free will from any one who would seek to suppress it again.


4. I don't know how old you are, you seem rather intelligent and contrary to what you may believe I understand your views and we probably would agree on a lot of them if it this were a face to face discussion.

 

[Xarsah16]

@431unknown -

With all things said, though, in the end, it doesn't change the fact that the way you expressed your opinion was harsh and hurtful. There's a kind way and a mean way to express your opinion, and I was taken aback as well by the tone you expressed yours in. People are also going to think what they want, and you can't change that, such is life. It's also not about trying to prove your point and gain the last word. That's something my mother does, and just about everyone on the Fox News channel whenever she's watching it XD When an opinion is properly expressed, it gains the recognition it deserves.

Bottom line - I'd respect you and your beliefs if you respected other people's beliefs as well.

 

[SkankyYankee]

Religious tolerance is what separates us from the very people we started fighting over twenty years ago. If we give that up we have become what we have fought so hard against. Its not right next to the wtc site either its 2 blocks away.

 

[431unknown]

Okkie dokkie.

 

[BlueStar]

What happened to Political Christianity's firm support of the free market and of the government not being allowed to interfere with that or in religion? Oh, wait, when you're Sarah Palin arguments doen't have to make sense from one to the next, after all, consecutive words rarely make sense when they're coming out of her.

And I mean look at this chunt.

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/07...uslim-video.php

Tennessee Lt. Gov. Ron Ramsey, currently running third in the state's Republican gubernatorial primary race, says he's not sure if Constitutional guarantees of freedom of religion apply to the followers of the world's second-largest faith, Islam.

You have freedom of religion as long as you don't choose the wrong religion? Why did all those puritan nutjobs get on the boats in the first place?

The current immigration hysteria in the US over hispanics and muslims is just the modern version of what happened years ago with the Irish. "They've got a strange religion. They don't speak properly. They're uneducated. They take jobs from real Americans. They're dangerous and criminal."

BTW I see we've already gone through the "MEN DIED FOR YOUR FREEDOM OF SPEECH SO DON'T YOU DARE SAY THAT" argument, that's one of my faves

 

[nutella]

Personally, I don't think there's anything wrong with it, but whoever decided to build a mosque there has to know that SOME people will have a problem with it. Why go through all the controversy? It can be built somewhere else, unless I'm missing something terribly obvious.

 

[Glyptofane]

No Muslims were ever arrested for 9/11, only Jews.
Israel did 9/11 - ALL THE PROOF IN THE WORLD

 

[BlueStar]

Firstly, why should they? There was a time when interracial couples or "black" churches being built in the wrong area caused controversy and there were people who had the attitude "well I'm not against it, but they shouldn't do it because it will cause problems." It's just giving in to bullies, hear a similar option suggested about gay adoption, the kid might get bullied so just conform to the bullies rather than tackling them.

As for why there, same reason you build any amenity anywhere - there isn't one nearby that services the needs of the community there.

You don't have to look far even today to find outrage and controversy about the opening of Catholic churches, community centres and schools in areas where people are still raw about terrorist atrocities committed by Catholics there within the last ten years, how long do you hold the grudge against a religion for, how wide does the exclusion zone go and to what extent do you allow the followers of a religion who had no involvement in such activities to have their freedoms restricted because of the behaviour of others?

 

[taktularCBo]

No Muslims were ever arrested for 9/11, only Jews.
Israel did 9/11 - ALL THE PROOF IN THE WORLD

gosh...antisemitism seems to be really a big issue in the USA and I live in Germany, where we learned the hard way, what is the truth and to not follow blindly a "leader". If you would say those things in Germany, they would call you a Nazi and in my opinion you are...or you are just stupid believing in those theories.

 

[BlueStar]

No Muslims were ever arrested for 9/11, only Jews.
Israel did 9/11 - ALL THE PROOF IN THE WORLD

gosh...antisemitism seems to be really a big issue in the USA and I live in Germany, where we learned the hard way, what is the truth and to not follow blindly a "leader". If you would say those things in Germany, they would call you a Nazi and in my opinion you are...or you are just stupid believing in those theories.

I think in the US, and indeed the wider world, there's issues both with "J00s control the world!!1" type anti-semitism and the flip side of people who think anyone who dares criticise Israel for the prison camp they're currently operating in Gaza must be some kind of Jew hating hitler worshipper for even suggesting such a thing.

 

[DCG]

I don't think it's smart to build it.
It can give certain people (relatives of the deceased) the feeling as if they are being mocked with.

 

[BlueStar]

Conversely, blocking it may make some relatives of the deceased feel like politicians are speaking on their behalf without their permission and using their private grief to further a personal agenda of removing religious freedoms and promoting bigotry.

 

[Sterling]

It's true this country is free, and at least it ISN'T on GZ. I am still against it. People don't forget things like 9/11, and putting a mosque 2 blocks away from GZ is just asking for trouble. People didn't just die in the Wold Trade Center, they also died around it. Honestly, just build it somewhere else. Putting it in such proximity won't improve relations with Muslims.

 

[emigre]

Or alternatively it could result better understanding and cooperation with the Muslim demographic?

 

[Sterling]

Or alternatively it could result better understanding and cooperation with the Muslim demographic?

Hey, it could happen. But with the way you people seem to think about Americans, it is a bad idea. Also how do you think one mosque can change something like that? We already have mosques dotting the landscape, I don't think one more will change something like that. Especially since this one would be near a place where basically a mass murder occurred. That's what most of you foreign tempers don't seen to get...

 

[BlueStar]

Uh... Why was my post at the top of the page edited with the reason

"This post has been removed by a moderator.
Reason: links to forums like that are not welcome here"

Don't think I posted a link to anything.

EDIT: Guess it might have been something quoted.

 

[p1ngpong]

Uh... Why was my post at the top of the page edited with the reason

"This post has been removed by a moderator.
Reason: links to forums like that are not welcome here"

The post didn't even contain a link, never mind to a forum which is not welcome.

You were replying to a post that linked to a rather nasty little anti Semitic hate forum.

I trashed the post you replied to and both responses to it.

 

[Deleted User]

Here's the sum up

It is bad for a mosque to be built on G Z because....
* reminiscent of 9/11
* makes locals feel uncomfortable
* lot of racial hate may spring up

It is good to build a mosque because...
* regular non-extremist muslims can come and pay their respects
* a place to pray and mourn the dead at G Z
* all faiths are equal - there's a church there, so why not a mosque.

 

[emigre]

Or alternatively it could result better understanding and cooperation with the Muslim demographic?

Hey, it could happen. But with the way you people seem to think about Americans, it is a bad idea. Also how do you think one mosque can change something like that? We already have mosques dotting the landscape, I don't think one more will change something like that. Especially since this one would be near a place where basically a mass murder occurred. That's what most of you foreign tempers don't seen to get...

You shouldn't generalise. I always thought America had a majority of reasonable people with just a idiotic loud minority like Sarah Palin. In an earlier post I stated that there's already been a makeshift Mosque in the area and this proposed Mosque/Islamic centre will be a permanet home. There seems to be a wish for it and if everything is in place there shouldn't be any strong reason for it to be built.

Yes 9/11 was tragic and as insensitive this may sound, things need to move on. It shouldn't be forgotton but it shouldn't hinder the way society treats each other in the future. If we can't progress than humanity do not have a hope.

 

[Deleted User]

Or alternatively it could result better understanding and cooperation with the Muslim demographic?

Hey, it could happen. But with the way you people seem to think about Americans, it is a bad idea. Also how do you think one mosque can change something like that? We already have mosques dotting the landscape, I don't think one more will change something like that. Especially since this one would be near a place where basically a mass murder occurred. That's what most of you foreign tempers don't seen to get...

You shouldn't generalise. I always thought America had a majority of reasonable people with just a idiotic loud minority like Sarah Palin. In an earlier post I stated that there's already been a makeshift Mosque in the area and this proposed Mosque/Islamic centre will be a permanet home. There seems to be a wish for it and if everything is in place there shouldn't be any strong reason for it to be built.

Yes 9/11 was tragic and as insensitive this may sound, things need to move on. It shouldn't be forgotton but it shouldn't hinder the way society treats each other in the future. If we can't progress than humanity do not have a hope.

I agree. We must push things ahead, not dwell. Look at how many people disagreed with FaceBook's new design, but FB stood firm and ignored them. Now even more people use facebook than ever. (Not related, but good case-study)