Hacking GameCube Aspect Scaling?

[tueidj]

Funny how the programmer's manual clearly states the largest framebuffer size possible is either 640x480 or 640x528... Enjoy your imaginary higher resolutions.

 

[Jacobeian]

nope, internal framebuffer (in GPU) is 640x480 but external is whatever you want (its only limit is main memory size)... the video hardware takes the external framebuffer and outputs it: video hardware limit is 720x480 (720x574 in PAL) so you could render more than 640x480 in two-pass, i.e the Wii is perfectly able to display a 720 pixels wide picture. If you only do one copy (max 640x480), you can even stretch it through hardware up to 720x480 (but it obviously looks wrong unless you rendered initially with the later upscaling in mind)

Multi-pass rendering is only used for separate fields when using the anti-aliased modes, it still can't be used to render more than 640 pixels wide. The only way to get a true 720 pixel width frame is to write to the YUY2 format XFB directly, which games just don't do.


It is theoretically possible to do two EFB rendering of 360x480 pixels, followed each time by a EFB->XFB copy operation to the proper XFB region (you can select XFB destination when doing GX copy) and get a full 720x480 XFB at the end, which is the max Wii video encoder can output.
I don't know about the framerate though and I don't know if any game actually do this, though It seemed to me that those with PROPER 16:9 support actually render more than 640 pixels (and do not simply use upscaling)...

QUOTE

Funny how the programmer's manual clearly states the largest framebuffer size possible is either 640x480 or 640x528... Enjoy your imaginary higher resolutions.

I've read the leaked programmed manual too (the Video and Graphic hardware parts in this case) and I'm sure what I'm describing is perfectly doable. 640x528 pixels is the max size of the internal buffer in GX hardware (when using the default EFB pixel format), there is nothing that prevent you from doing multiple draw/copytoxfb pass to achieve a bigger XFB

EDIT: actually i had a second look to the GX copy functions in libogc and it seems it's not so trivial to fill a large XFB in multiple pass (you can only specify the size of the XFB region to be copied, not the offset) so maybe I'm wrong and nobody actually do render more than 640 pixels wide framebuffer.

 

[Arm73]

Funny how the programmer's manual clearly states the largest framebuffer size possible is either 640x480 or 640x528... Enjoy your imaginary higher resolutions.

You mean you can't really tell when you see a stretched image or a native resolution ?
Keep looking at your manual, I'll look at the screen.
QUOTEBut yeah, I know. Trust me, I'm a stickler for proper aspect ratios. I always can't stand when TVs in restaurants/lounges/etc stretch standard analog cable to fill widescreen TVs, I'm so tempted to go pester whoever has the remote and tell them to fix the darn thing.

This.

 

[Jacobeian]

You mean you can't really tell when you see a stretched image or a native resolution ?
Keep looking at your manual, I'll look at the screen.

the Wii can output (or upscale) up to 720x480 pixels, it is hardware limitation of the Video Encoder and a limitation properly described in the programmer manual (and libogc, see video_types.h)

In 16:9, the received image is stretched by the TV, not the Wii
Actually I don't think 16:9 setting change anything to the Wii beside the signal used to tell TV to stretch the video signal. It's up to the game designer to render the screen so it displays with the correct aspect ratio and satisfying range on TV screen when 16:9 mode is detected in the Wii settings.

 

[Arm73]

[.............
Actually I don't think 16:9 setting change anything to the Wii beside the signal used to tell TV to stretch the video signal. It's up to the game designer to render the screen so it displays with the correct aspect ratio and satisfying range on TV screen when 16:9 mode is detected in the Wii settings.

Just for example taking this bit from the official IGN Metroid Corruption review

QUOTEThe game also runs in progressive-scan and, for the first time, in 16:9 widescreen mode. The widescreen resolution is not exactly 854x480, but something closer to 825x470, which means that it may show some thin black borders on your screen. We suspect most people won't notice the difference. Perhaps most impressive is that the adventure jams along at 60 frames per second through 99.9 percent of Aran's quest. This simple truth makes a huge difference -- it's much easier on the eyes and the hands.

You might be right about the 720x480 max hardware limitation ( with the TV stretching to 854 for the rest ) but still, it's very clear that most Wii games (with proper widescreen support ) do actually use more then 640 horizontal pixels.

 

[Jacobeian]

The Wii hardware specs actually state it is 720x480, so as libogc devs, i couldn't care less about what IGN writers are "guessing" it is...

as i said, the display size might fit the screen resolution, those are still stretched pixels and the native resolution can be no more than 720...

 

[Arm73]

The Wii hardware specs actually state it is 720x480, so as libogc devs, i couldn't care less about what IGN writers are "guessing" it is...

as i said, the display size might fit the screen resolution, those are still stretched pixels and the native resolution can be no more than 720...

We are both saying the same thing at the end, sorry I was in the process of editing my post when you posted this.
I agree with you.
I don't agree to whoever says that the Wii can't output more then 640x480.
Peace.

 

[9th_Sage]

So some TVs DO adjust to the Wii's widescreen output? I've used it on about three different widescreen TVs and I always have to go in and adjust the TV's aspect ratio manually. It's especially annoying on my current one as it gets all aspect of everything (that is, TV and bluray/dvd) except the Wii.

 

[Knocks]

That's wrong.
If Nintendo implements the black bars on VC they will look worse.

The Wii can only output 640x480 pixels. Even if you set it a 16:9, it still outputs the same resolution, the only difference is that the image is anamorphic.
Anamorphic means that a 16:9 image is squeezed to a normal 4:3 image, then the TV stretches it again to get the widescreen effect. This looks great for all 16:9 Wii games, because even if there is a bit of image quality loss, you gain a wide camera in 3D platform/action games, or more space in menus.
However...
If you add black bars to VC won't look better. Because in order to do that:
1 - You must squeeze the image to add the black bars, losing some quality.
2 - The TV will stretch back the image.
That means you are making smaller the image then bigger again. And it's impossible to do that without losing quality.
Even if the VC games work on lower resolutions than the Wii, they loss quality too. At least, I can notice that the image looks exactly vertically, but a bit blurry horizontally. It also depends a lot on the rescaling of your TV.
If Nintendo don't put black bars ir will be better. Just set your TV to 4:3 while playing a 4:3 game. Why? Because the TV will show the image WITHOUT any squeeze or stretch, the TV will show the image in its original resolution.

For that reason, it's better to play Megaman 9, Megaman 10 and Resident Evil Archives setting the Wii to 4:3. Because these games add the black bars. If you set your Wii to 4:3 and your TV to 4:3 while playing these games, they look a lot better (even the NES graphics like Megaman).


The GC games on Wii don't have this problem, because they don't put black bars so you are forced to set your TV to 4:3. Some games like Soul Calibur 2 or F-Zero GX have a widescreen mode, this mode is exactly the same as the Wii 16:9. Maybe the Wii does a better job creating an anamorphic image due to the hardware, but I don't know.

You are contradicting yourself. If your Wii is in 16:9 mode while you're playing VC games, and you switch your TV to 4:3, you are squeezing the picture. The alternative is to set both your Wii and TV to 4:3 every time you play a 4:3 game, and then back to "FULL" or 16:9 for widescreen content, which is the opposite of what the OP wants to do.

 

[marc_max]

That's wrong.
If Nintendo implements the black bars on VC they will look worse.

The Wii can only output 640x480 pixels. Even if you set it a 16:9, it still outputs the same resolution, the only difference is that the image is anamorphic.
Anamorphic means that a 16:9 image is squeezed to a normal 4:3 image, then the TV stretches it again to get the widescreen effect. This looks great for all 16:9 Wii games, because even if there is a bit of image quality loss, you gain a wide camera in 3D platform/action games, or more space in menus.
However...
If you add black bars to VC won't look better. Because in order to do that:
1 - You must squeeze the image to add the black bars, losing some quality.
2 - The TV will stretch back the image.
That means you are making smaller the image then bigger again. And it's impossible to do that without losing quality.
Even if the VC games work on lower resolutions than the Wii, they loss quality too. At least, I can notice that the image looks exactly vertically, but a bit blurry horizontally. It also depends a lot on the rescaling of your TV.
If Nintendo don't put black bars ir will be better. Just set your TV to 4:3 while playing a 4:3 game. Why? Because the TV will show the image WITHOUT any squeeze or stretch, the TV will show the image in its original resolution.

For that reason, it's better to play Megaman 9, Megaman 10 and Resident Evil Archives setting the Wii to 4:3. Because these games add the black bars. If you set your Wii to 4:3 and your TV to 4:3 while playing these games, they look a lot better (even the NES graphics like Megaman).


The GC games on Wii don't have this problem, because they don't put black bars so you are forced to set your TV to 4:3. Some games like Soul Calibur 2 or F-Zero GX have a widescreen mode, this mode is exactly the same as the Wii 16:9. Maybe the Wii does a better job creating an anamorphic image due to the hardware, but I don't know.

You are contradicting yourself. If your Wii is in 16:9 mode while you're playing VC games, and you switch your TV to 4:3, you are squeezing the picture. The alternative is to set both your Wii and TV to 4:3 every time you play a 4:3 game, and then back to "FULL" or 16:9 for widescreen content, which is the opposite of what the OP wants to do.

I'm not contradicting. You said exactly the same as me.
Even if the OP doesn't want this, it's the best option if his TV doesn't detect automatically the image type.

 

[synce]

I've tested pretty much every Wii game's widescreen and it all looks like shit. Can't believe anyone would prefer that anamorphic nonsense but then again I have friends who stretch everything to fit their screens. My best advice is to get a TV with good black levels for the side bars and play in 4:3

 

[smf]

16:9 TV can generally show more pixels but the "stretching" aspect has nothing to do with the number of pixels, it's the nature of 16:9 video signal, the input video signal (Wii output) is "stretched" by the TV during active scan.

On analogue video there are no pixels, CRT tubes have infinite analogue resolution.
LCD's take the analogue video in and have to map that back onto whatever resolution panel you have.

So how many pixels you can see is determined by the pixel clock, the overscan, the dot mask for crt/the panel for lcd.

As far as graphics cards go, displaying to a 16:9 TV is identical to a 4:3 TV.
It's the application that has to change the aspect of all the graphics.

 

[mike333]

16:9 TV can generally show more pixels but the "stretching" aspect has nothing to do with the number of pixels, it's the nature of 16:9 video signal, the input video signal (Wii output) is "stretched" by the TV during active scan.

On analogue video there are no pixels, CRT tubes have infinite analogue resolution.
LCD's take the analogue video in and have to map that back onto whatever resolution panel you have.

Problem is that these CRT tubes are sitting in TV which are defining limits on vertical resolution and call them lines.
About horizontal res... what is maximum usable bandwidth?

 

[Knocks]

I'm not contradicting. You said exactly the same as me.
Even if the OP doesn't want this, it's the best option if his TV doesn't detect automatically the image type.

But you have to change your damn Wii settings to 4:3 every time you play a VC game, which does not win Nintendo any awards for user friendliness. If you read my original comment, I said that by design they should have output a 4:3 (meaning non-anamorphic) picture with black bars for all 4:3 content, which would have completely resolved all aspect ratio issues. What exactly are you arguing about?

 

[marc_max]

I'm not contradicting. You said exactly the same as me.
Even if the OP doesn't want this, it's the best option if his TV doesn't detect automatically the image type.

But you have to change your damn Wii settings to 4:3 every time you play a VC game, which does not win Nintendo any awards for user friendliness. If you read my original comment, I said that by design they should have output a 4:3 (meaning non-anamorphic) picture with black bars for all 4:3 content, which would have completely resolved all aspect ratio issues. What exactly are you arguing about?

That's already what they do. They are always outputing a 4:3 image non-anamorphic WITHOUT black bars while you play VC games. If you add black bars to the 4:3 image you are forced to make it anamorphic.
The only problem is that some TV doesn't detect the 'resolution' change and you have to change set the aspect ratio manually in your TV.

In my previous post I was only talking about other 4:3 games that add fake black bars to correct aspect ratio (the Capcom games). No, you don't have to change your Wii to 4:3 every time you play a VC game. You just need to change your TV. Yes, the OP didn't want this, but I think it's better than letting the coders add the fake black bars that blurry the image, that's my opinion.

 

[Arm73]

Look some people care about aspect ratio, some would rather fill up their widescreen TV by choosing anamorphic ( and that's true for DVDs, 4:3 broadcasting and so on ).
Now how do you go on and make everybody happy ?
If you add automatically black bars on 4:3 games,without really switching to 4:3 resolution ) not only you get a loss of image quality, but you also alienate whoever prefers to have the image completely fill up their TV's screen ( and trust me , there is alot of people out there who'd have it that way ).
On the other hand, buy leaving as it is, you can simply press a button on your TV remote and change the aspect ratio of your TV to 4:3, thus having a better image AND the correct aspect ratio.
It would be nice if the Wii and the TV would communicate and perform the switch automatically, sure, but what about all the other people I was mentioning before ?
Unfortunately you can't make everybody happy, but as usual, I think Nintendo came up with the smartest, more simple idea by living it up to the user to set whatever aspect ratio they choose.

 

[drfsupercenter]

That's why I was asking if there was some homebrew method that could boot the GameCube games with pillarboxes so I don't have to do it myself.

Seems this thread has gotten way off topic.