Homebrew DSi homebrew lockout

lpcstr

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So I decided recently that I was going to get a DSi and am interested in homebrew. My question is what type of prevention does Nintendo employ?

To my knowledge the original DS simply encrypted the contents of their carts, which was reverse engineered by the author of no$gba. What exactly have they done with the DSi that makes it harder to run code on? What have recent firmware releases like 1.4.x done to break things like iEDGE and similar products?

Thanks.
 

kevan

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problems
1. As far as i know. Anti-Piracy on carts to reduce pirating is in place
2. and DSi updates usually stop most flashcarts from working

Solutions
1. Patches and good kernels for the carts themselves.
2. Flashing the DSi cart to work with the later updates.
 

lpcstr

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kevan said:
problems
1. As far as i know. Anti-Piracy on carts to reduce pirating is in place
2. and DSi updates usually stop most flashcarts from working

Solutions
1. Patches and good kernels for the carts themselves.
2. Flashing the DSi cart to work with the later updates.

Hmm, well I kinda knew that already
tongue.gif


I'm more interested in the technical explanation. After all, the DSi can still play the old DS carts, so they still decrypt and run the old games like normal. There must be something they are doing in the new firmwares to try and tell the difference between a legitimate game and a flash cart. As far as I know Nintendo doesn't use sign their games.
 

lpcstr

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Seriously, nobody knows anything? Maybe somebody knows of a website? I've been looking all day and I can't find any information anywhere.

I remember back when I was into xbox hacking there were websites and wikis everywhere that had all the most recent discoveries, protocols, schematics, what have you.
 

twiztidsinz

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lpcstr said:
Seriously, nobody knows anything? Maybe somebody knows of a website? I've been looking all day and I can't find any information anywhere.

I remember back when I was into xbox hacking there were websites and wikis everywhere that had all the most recent discoveries, protocols, schematics, what have you.
There is... kinda.
I know of two DSi hacks, one is a save exploit for two games which can be used to execute small amounts of code, the other I believe uses the same games to load code from WiFi.

Neither of them are all that great (in terms of the end-user -- but this is a great start for people to work from), and most homebrew would be able to be run on regular DS' so making DSi exclusive homebrew is not only harder to do (to use the extra stuff you'd have to code from scratch), but be useful to a tiny group (those who own the exploitable games) of a smaller audience (DSi owners).


Read this if you're interested in articles about DSi hacking:
http://davejmurphy.com/dsi-mode-homebrew-anyone/

And browse here if you like pcbporn:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/micahdowty/se...57621023570420/
 

redact

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lpcstr said:
kevan said:
problems
1. As far as i know. Anti-Piracy on carts to reduce pirating is in place
2. and DSi updates usually stop most flashcarts from working

Solutions
1. Patches and good kernels for the carts themselves.
2. Flashing the DSi cart to work with the later updates.

Hmm, well I kinda knew that already
tongue.gif


I'm more interested in the technical explanation. After all, the DSi can still play the old DS carts, so they still decrypt and run the old games like normal. There must be something they are doing in the new firmwares to try and tell the difference between a legitimate game and a flash cart. As far as I know Nintendo doesn't use sign their games.
i may be remembering wrong but i think that with games released before the dsi there is a white-list in the dsi firmware and for the games released afterwards, they are signed..
 

lpcstr

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mercluke said:
i may be remembering wrong but i think that with games released before the dsi there is a white-list in the dsi firmware and for the games released afterwards, they are signed..

Hmm, that was one of my theories (of course that is just pure speculation because I do not yet have a device and I can find almost no information online.)

I can't even find information on the method of encryption used on DS carts. Supposedly it was figured out by author of no$gba, but despite being a free program, the author apparently rather keep it closed source.
 

jurassicplayer

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lpcstr said:
Hmm, that was one of my theories (of course that is just pure speculation because I do not yet have a device and I can find almost no information online.)

I can't even find information on the method of encryption used on DS carts. Supposedly it was figured out by author of no$gba, but despite being a free program, the author apparently rather keep it closed source.
Desmume is open-source I believe...
 

koji2009

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no$gba guy didn't get the encryption keys... Loopy did. Loopy created many of the original emulators for GBA/DS (err that is, emulators on those systems for other systems like PocketNES). He was the person who originally created the specs for Pass me and later firmware hacks for DS to automatically play DS games from the GBA slot (flash me)

He also said he hacked the DSi public key... but after all that happened with the DS scene he said he'd never release it. No one's positive he ever did figure it out... but there is very little reason not to believe him.
 

lpcstr

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koji2009 said:
no$gba guy didn't get the encryption keys... Loopy did. Loopy created many of the original emulators for GBA/DS (err that is, emulators on those systems for other systems like PocketNES). He was the person who originally created the specs for Pass me and later firmware hacks for DS to automatically play DS games from the GBA slot (flash me)

He also said he hacked the DSi public key... but after all that happened with the DS scene he said he'd never release it. No one's positive he ever did figure it out... but there is very little reason not to believe him.

You mean he discovered the private key used to sign DSi games? I'm assuming that's RSA so I find that statement very suspicious.
huh.gif


PS I finally found some good sites: dsibrew.org and the gbadev.org forum. It looks like (from what I read so far) DSi games are signed and the contents of the firmware are encrypted and decoded by an on-cpu bootloader (something similar to how Xbox360 prevents unauthorized code.) If this is the case, I doubt there is going to be much headway made in DSi homebrew, unless someone does in fact find and release the RSA key which I find unlikely.
sleep.gif
 

redact

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lpcstr said:
koji2009 said:
no$gba guy didn't get the encryption keys... Loopy did. Loopy created many of the original emulators for GBA/DS (err that is, emulators on those systems for other systems like PocketNES). He was the person who originally created the specs for Pass me and later firmware hacks for DS to automatically play DS games from the GBA slot (flash me)

He also said he hacked the DSi public key... but after all that happened with the DS scene he said he'd never release it. No one's positive he ever did figure it out... but there is very little reason not to believe him.

You mean he discovered the private key used to sign DSi games? I'm assuming that's RSA so I find that statement very suspicious.
huh.gif
he's talking about the dsi's common key. the wii's common key was found so i don't see it as unreasonable that loopy managed to find out the dsi's common key

edit: give this page a read if you haven't already done so.. http://hackmii.com/2008/04/keys-keys-keys/
 

lpcstr

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mercluke said:
edit: give this page a read if you haven't already done so.. http://hackmii.com/2008/04/keys-keys-keys/

Though that information pertains to the Wii, I believe it is probably almost identical for the DSi. It's a sad thing for homebrewers and fans of homebrew. This is basically what almost all modern consoles are using now, and almost all will use in the future. Game executables are RSA signed, BIOS are encrypted and unique keys and the decryption routines are stored on the CPU die and are inaccessible. It pretty much makes running your own code impossible, except for the occasional software exploit. Of course, those rely on insecurities in authorized games and would require the code from said games which is very shady. Not to mention it can easily be destroyed with the next firmware update. I understand that Nintendo wants to protect their profit margins, but at the same time it sucks. I honestly doubt they loose much to piracy anyway. Seems like almost everyone I know owns a DS and none of them have ever pirated a game. Meanwhile the PC gaming industry puts up with it and has almost no way to combat it (yes, anti-piracy exists for PCs but compared to what modern console use, it's laughably easy to circumvent.)

QUOTE(Rydian @ Oct 18 2010, 11:58 PM) http://hackmii.com/2010/02/lawsuit-coming-in-3-2-1/

This goes over the DS and DSi's encryption and booting differences in relation to getting flash carts working.

I enjoyed that article and it answered a lot of questions I had. I think I'm up to speed now.
 

lpcstr

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Rydian said:
Nintendo says piracy isn't to blame for poor software sales.

I don't think it ever is. It usually seems more like a scapegoat. Same goes for the movie and music industry. They can complain about piracy all they want, but at the at the end of the day we all know they are sitting on a mountain of cash. I'd like to see less effort spent breaking homebrew and more time spent developing actual features and quality games.
 

Rydian

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They're not sitting on a mountain of cash (developing systems takes a fuckton of money), Nintendo is just aware that crappy games don't sell because they're crappy, they admit that instead of claim it's piracy killing them.

Also, the teams that develop games and the teams that block/hinder flash carts are totally unrelated.
 

twiztidsinz

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Rydian said:
They're not sitting on a mountain of cash (developing systems takes a fuckton of money)
Nintendo is the only company to turn a profit on their consoles.
Microsoft and Sony sell their consoles at a loss and recoup the money through game sales.

So yes, Nintendo is sitting on a mountain of cash.
 
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