Hacking Devolution - Public Release

[Sumea]

I have a question. Once classic controller support is added to devolution, we'll be able to play gamecube games on Wii U correct? But how would disc verification work? The Wii U doesn't accept gamecube discs. Are we suppose to verify them on a Wii and then take the external hard drive from that and put it on the Wii U? That seems like a lot of trouble. Plus that wouldn't be an option for people who have already sold their Wii.

If WiiU reads Wii discs there in theory should not be anything blocking it from actually reading GameCube discs, it May not boot them officially but it should read them. And if not, then yes, the latter.

 

[EzekielRage]

GameCube has a different file format than Wii. It won't work on the fly. The program would have to interpret what is on the disc. Just putting a GameCube disc into an adapter wont work-.-

 

[Maxternal]

I thought the difference in format was just the way they're partitioned but that the raw sector by sector format was the same (and that THAT was what really made them both different from a standard DVD format and made most computer drives unable to read them.). If that's the case then a drive that can read a Wii retail disk should also be able to read the raw data from the GC disk and should be able to validate it.
If not, oh well, but there's theoretically other ways to validate a disk.

Most PC drives are capable of doing the necessary steps to check the authenticity of a GC game, but because the OS normally tries to read the disc's actual data as soon as it is inserted the drive ends up stuck in a read-error-retry loop before any program has a chance to do anything.

Which I would assume would refer to using a USB DVD drive.

 

[Sumea]

GameCube has a different file format than Wii. It won't work on the fly. The program would have to interpret what is on the disc. Just putting a GameCube disc into an adapter wont work-.-

Actually, what I can read, you know, from shitty unrealiable sources is that GameCube and Wii use SAME format, Wii is just bigger and also Dual Layer. It is nintendo modified DVD disc. Both Nintendo Wii and GameCube used same format as far as I know - the size does not make the format different much at all, and because of the similarity IN THEORY, WiiU shouldn't have problems authenticating gamecube discs.

Of course, in practice, I do not know, I don't own a Wiiu to actually test this with so it may be all in vain in the end.

 

[Cyan]

For the disc verification, maybe there's a way to do it for WiiU like Nintendo did with the Wii->WiiU transfer.
The transfer works like that: You first create an authentication file on WiiU, then use your Wii to initiate the transfer (probably signing the data for the WiiU with the provided keys at that time), then put back on WiiU the transfered files.

Devolution could use the same method. For example, On WiiU you launch devolution for vWii (or for WiiU, wherever it will works in the future) and select an option to init the authentication.
An encrypted file containing your own WiiU ID is created.
On Wii side, Devolution will check this WiiU verification file and use it to generate the Game Verification file after you (re)verified each game discs. (it could create a different file extension, so games are playable on both Wii and WiiU from the same device).

You can't share your WiiU key to someone who has the games, as copying it on his own device will generate a different game verification file, so this will be tied to your own games+consoles.

Of course you'll need a Wii to verify the games. but it's a "backup" player, it's used to play games that you own and you used to be able to play until now. You probably already have a Wii.
Some people could go from GameCube to WiiU directly, that will cause a problem for them, but Any Wii could be used as verification process, as only the WiiU ID would be stored in the verification file instead of the Wii ID. Go to a friend or family member to verify your discs.
And, people buying GameCube games when they have only a WiiU without owning previous console would be a fool: If they buy a GameCube game for WiiU it means (if they are not dumb) that they know they can play GameCube on WiiU thanks to Devolution, and before buying a game you inform yourself if it's compatible or not with your hardware. You won't buy a PS2 game if you own a non backward compatible PS3! that's the same with GameCube on new GC-less Wii, and would be the same with GameCube on WiiU.


I think not storing the Wii ID will not change much compared to the current way of verification. You currently need a console and the game: A console that you will use to play the game, and a retail game you own or borrowed.
The created Game Verification file will then be generated based on the WiiU ID instead of the Wii's ID.
Then you put your device back on WiiU vWii and launch devolution which will find the verification and it will match the WiiU ID.


This is only hypothetic and I don't know if/when/how it will be done on WiiU.
This is only an idea (but Tueidj probably already thought about this method).

 

[ToddofWar420]

The Wii is just a Gamecube with extra cheese.
Quote me not.

 

[EzekielRage]

NO. This has to end here. GameCube has a different file format than Wii. End of story. Its like you try to open and drive a Ford Mustang with a Ford Escort key. They are both Ford but thats about it. So either there is a file transfer involved OR, as I ahve already said, Devolution itself emulates the GameCube reading process just enough to verify the disc. End of Story.

 

[SifJar]

GameCube has a different file format than Wii.

Well, actually both use dozens of file formats for various things (3D models, textures, audio etc.), but I'm going to hazard a guess you are referring to the native binary format of the console, in which case to the best of my knowledge both use the DOL format actually. Certainly, it is short for "Dolphin", i.e. the GC codename, and I see no reason the Wii would use a format named after the GC's codename, unless the GC also used that format.

Also, your story apparently has two ends.

 

[Maxternal]

Actually, I think he's talking about it's disk format on a much lower level. For example, a Wii game on a retail disk and a Wii game burned to a DVD-R disk both contain almost exactly the same information. An older Wii can read either one (and can even read a DVD+R disk with the book type set to DVD-ROM but it's a real strain on the laser) and a new Wii can ONLY read a retail game disks. There is a fundamental difference in how that information is presented on the disk whether that's how the sectors are arranged or positioned or how the information within the sectors is arranged. It's not just that it's rejecting burned material, either. An older Wii drive can read both a retail DVD move as well as a burned DVD video but a new Wii's drive can read NEITHER.

Now, what the question is at hand is whether at that level GC and Wii disks are different or not (since both are obviously not QUITE the same as other normal DVD media.)

 

[EzekielRage]

Haha yes it does have two ends, but it is the same end. Like Return of the King
What I am saying is that they are not compatible. It is as simple as putting a GC Disc and a Wii Disc into your CD Rom drive and look at the file structure, how the data is present and what the files on the disc look like.

Edit: I forgot: Most of you probably cant read Wii or GC Discs on your regular PC drive. But mounting an ISO has the same effect^^

 

[Disorarara]

what do you guys even mean by 'disc format'? obviously wii and gamecube games are developed using much of the same development tools and are run on very similar systems and their discs are pressed at the same factories so they obviously share a number of similarities, and both 'formats' do have pressed identification information for which console they belong to as with any console game disc although we cant be for certain anyways why gamecube discs wont be accepted by newer wii consoles

in any case, the theoretical process of getting gamecube games on the WiiU with AP intact seems so convoluted that tueidj might not even bother with it, especially since gamecube games are likely to be rereleased anyways.

 

[EzekielRage]

here, have a simple explanatory image:

this is the file structure of a wii disc of mario kart compared to a gamecube disc of mario kart. notice that right at the first step wii expects something different than gamecube. the wii also needs additional files to run, like the headers and banners for the channels and the console info telling the console: HI, I AM A WII GAME. RUN ME!
since the gamecube games dont have that info, neither newer wii systems nor a wiiu can read them, no matter if you pop them into an adapter or not. it will never work this way!

BUT here is the catch: at the system level, both share the same file structure. and THAT is where my theory comes in. if devolution would simply read this portion of a gamecube disc on a wiiu or new wii, it THEORETICALLY could run the game. BUT!!!!! this is the other catch with that, i am not sure how the AP works but since you need a clean rip, the AP would need a clean game. and entering the sys folder directly is NOT a clean game. so the AP makes this unlikely, except of course the author finds a way around this.

i hope that better explains what we mean with file systems and the likes^^

 

[SifJar]

Actually, I think he's talking about it's disk format on a much lower level. For example, a Wii game on a retail disk and a Wii game burned to a DVD-R disk both contain almost exactly the same information. An older Wii can read either one (and can even read a DVD+R disk with the book type set to DVD-ROM but it's a real strain on the laser) and a new Wii can ONLY read a retail game disks. There is a fundamental difference in how that information is presented on the disk whether that's how the sectors are arranged or positioned or how the information within the sectors is arranged. It's not just that it's rejecting burned material, either. An older Wii drive can read both a retail DVD move as well as a burned DVD video but a new Wii's drive can read NEITHER.

Now, what the question is at hand is whether at that level GC and Wii disks are different or not (since both are obviously not QUITE the same as other normal DVD media.)

There's a post here about the difference between a standard DVD and a GC disc, and I believe the same applies to Wii dics: http://debugmo.de/2008/11/anatomy-of-an-optical-medium-authentication/
Basically there are special "burn marks" on the discs, without which the GC (and Wii) should reject the discs, but the early Wii drives had the ability to read discs without them in the drive firmware. A little bit of hacking allowed that to be used for reading DVD movies and burnt warez. Later drives had that ability removed from the drive firmware.

On that "level" (i.e. verification of "authentic" discs), I believe Wii and GC are the same (Datel had figured this out during the GC days, and replicated it, and that was how they were able to manufacture the Wii Freeloader once the Trucha Bug was publicly known). Of course the file system of the discs isn't the same.

I don't really know what relevance any of this has to Devolution tbh, just trying to answer a discussion.

 

[Sumea]

-I snipped this just to let you know I read the thing and am replying to you-

One inheret thing you are forgetting is that we are not talking about BOOTING the gamecube disc or even the filesystem. The file structure and foldering has NOTHING to do can a DVD drive read the disc. We are only talking that as how the disc physically is pressed is identical in gamecube and Wii discs - theoretically. The thing that makes them Nintendo Optical Discs instead of normal DVD discs are same - in theory - in gamecube and Wii discs. Only difference is Wiiu disc what is clearly HD-DVD/bluray deviant what can hold 25 gigs in one layer, but the differences there from normal HD-DVD/bluray are probably same as differences between miniDVD and gamecube disc.

So, in TL;DR terms: for authentication, we are only talking about the drive's RAW ABILITY to read the disc, not "will it boot" because that should not even matter to the authentication process. Your argument would be same as saying that you cannot READ a DVD disc unless it has autorun.inf and a browser inside the disc to be able to be read by the drive.

In theory, as long as the Devolution DEV is not denying it, and as long as the THEORY is not proven wrong, there is NOTHING stopping gamecube discs from being read on Wiiu drive. We do not talk about booting them, because that is in current system impossible, we are only talking about a homebrew RAW READING the disc.

 

[Nintendo Maniac]

Wiiu disc what is clearly HD-DVD/bluray deviant what can hold 25 gigs in one layer

HD DVD only held 15GB per layer while Blu-ray holds 25GB per layer, so it should be safe to assume that Wii U discs are not HD DVD in any way.

 

[Sumea]

HD DVD only held 15GB per layer while Blu-ray holds 25GB per layer, so it should be safe to assume that Wii U discs are not HD DVD in any way.

Well okay, my bad, I kinda already forgot about HD-DVD
And in either case, legally seeing it is actually just "nintendo optical Disc" that is Nintendo owned media format developed by panasonic and not at all a modification on Blu-ray just Like Wii discs and Gamecube discs are a modification on DVD discs.

 

[EzekielRage]

Thats what i said there dude. I said it CLEARLY that if Devolution would ignore the file system, it can be done but otherwise it cant-.-

 

[Maxternal]

I think that some people here assume that the file system is taken care of by the hardware, that the software just asks the drive for X file and the drive loads it for it, and that by changing out the new drive in the new Wiis (and the even newer drive in the Wii U) that there is now no way to get at the individual files.
That's not the case. The drive can only read sector by sector so as long as the drive doesn't REFUSE or is INCAPABLE of reading the individual sectors off of any given disk, that part should not cause a problem.

The file system is taken care of by the software. Otherwise it would be like saying that since Windows can't read a Linux file system then no PC can do it because it all has the same hardware. The truth is that all you have to do is change the software that's running to Linux (or install the right software into Windows) and it can read it just fine.

Newer Wiis have exactly the same software and it's been seen that by just changing out the drive they can read GameCube disks just fine. If the new drive just spits the disk out because of the size, that can be fixed (and when in homebrew it doesn't spit out a DVD-R disk automatically just because it can't read it so that's at least not the reason why it spits it out) if the drive can't read the individual sectors because THAT is also different, THEN there's a problem.

If you're assuming that Devolution just asks the system software to read the file system for it and that adding a file system reading capability to Devolution itself, bypassing the system software, would be too much work, not to worry. Devolution has to be able to read that file system out of the ISO anyhow which is NOT something the system software or hardware was originally designed to do so the ability to interpret the RAW sector data from either an ISO or direct from the drive and recognize the file system out of it should not pose a problem.

Bottom line : IF the drive can still read the disks sectors and CleanRip can make an ISO by doing so then Devolution can do the same

 

[EzekielRage]

Is nobody reading what I posted? Let my try again:

if devolution would simply read this portion of a gamecube disc on a wiiu or new wii, it THEORETICALLY could run the game.

 

[Maxternal]

Is nobody reading what I posted? Let my try again:

if devolution would simply read this portion of a gamecube disc on a wiiu or new wii, it THEORETICALLY could run the game.

Okay, yes, we're in agreement then. I guess I misread previously.
I kinda think it already does read it that way, though, since otherwise I'd think it would be easy to trick the AP into verifying by using cIOS.

Hopefully, though, the last month without an update means he's working on it.