Can you spare some cutter me brothers.

[Toni Plutonij]

From what I know there's a few things missing but everything major is in there, Toni would probably be able to tell us. Heh, although if you go in with low expectations you'll definitely be blown away by it so it could be a good thing. If you've got alot of younger kids around you alot then it's probably better not to watch it on the big screen! The violence is a little cartoonish but still pretty fucking brutal and the rape scenes don't pull too many punches either (well considering when it was made anyway). Plus the movies worth watching just for to see McDowell doing "I'm singing in the rain".

Well, the most recognizable differences would be the way that they dress, and future of some of his teammates!!
In the book, they wear baggy black/dark clothes (if I recall very well, it has been a long time since I've read it)..
When they get into a fight with Billyboy, he had five more friends and there were only four of them, so it was a fight 6 vs. four, while in the movie, there were four of the both groups..and in the book, girl who was about to be raped by Billyboy and his "gang" wasn't older than 10, in the movie she was much more older..
There are many little details like that..

But I would say that movie fallows book pretty closely, movie is a bit more dark and brutal though..

And you're completely true about that Singing in the rain part Trolley!! It gives me goosebumps every time I see it!!



I've moved this to offtopic area, because we're seriously talking about the movie, I don't want no crappy posts in here

 

[Vulpes Abnocto]

and in the book, girl who was about to be raped by Billyboy and his "gang" wasn't older than 10, in the movie she was much more older..

Not to mention the two girls Alex picked up in the record store (The William Tell Overture scene) were about 12-13, according to the book.

Kubrick pushed a great many boundaries (such as making the movie "Lolita") but he was tasteful.

 

[Toni Plutonij]

I just read trough the book, he actually stated that those two girls are 10 year olds as well!!
I forgot that!

Burgess made that book pretty much shocking, for the time when it was written...and for today!!
I'm now feeling like watching the movie again!!

 

[Vulpes Abnocto]

I just read trough the book, he actually stated that those two girls are 10 year olds as well!!
I forgot that!

Burgess made that book pretty much shocking, for the time when it was written...and for today!!
I'm now feeling like watching the movie again!!

Is that right? Wow.
Well, I was slightly mistaken. (It's only been 8+ years since I read it.)
It's still a highly disturbing tale, and not only for it's pedophilic aspects.
The prolific portion, in my opinion, is how Alex is mentally/emotionally twisted and made into a clockwork being by the "Justice System" until he can no longer stand up for himself, fight on his own behalf, or speak his own mind, anymore.

It's my opinion that this next generation needs to know more about this tale, and other tales which warn of the repercussions of failing to learn from your own history.
(Such as Orwell's "1984")

I think it's time for me to watch this one again, too.

 

[Toni Plutonij]

I didn't actually try to correct you, but I have the book here, by my side, so I looked

I was interested..
The main point is, they're too young!!

And yeah, I've read Orwell's 1984 (funny thing, Burgess has written something like an "twist-off" if you get some time, try to read it, it's called 1985!!)..
I also read the Animal Farm, and I really like those books!! I can associate todays world with those stories!! And it's freakin' scary how good people predicted the future, and made psychological profile of the human!

Here, this is my "little collection" DVD and the book!! (I've taken the picture two minutes ago)

 

[Vulpes Abnocto]

I didn't actually try to correct you, but I have the book here, by my side, so I looked

I was interested..
The main point is, they're too young!!

And yeah, I've read Orwell's 1984 (funny thing, Burgess has written something like an "twist-off" if you get some time, try to read it, it's called 1985!!)..
I also read the Animal Farm, and I really like those books!! I can associate todays world with those stories!! And it's freakin' scary how good people predicted the future, and made psychological profile of the human!

Here, this is my "little collection" DVD and the book!! (I've taken the picture two minutes ago)

Well, I never take any offense when I actually am being corrected, so if you've got the materiel right next to you, I'm going to trust your word.
And yes, I agree, you're precisely right about them being too young, no matter the technicalities.

You know, I've never Ever heard of a "1985" by Burgess. I will definitely be looking for that story soon!

Well, to repay that information; I know that your taste in movies and TV shows seems to coincide with mine, (we both love Dead Like Me, Firefly, and of course, Clockwork Orange) The latest American TV show you should look for is called "True Blood". (on HBO)
It's easily the best vampire tale I've ever seen.

I'll bet you can find it on your own, but if not, I can point you straight to it, elsewhere.

 

[quim69]

Shame it was banned in the UK for so long, a whole generation of UK film watchers missed out.

It was never banned - kubrik pulled it due to a (well founded) fear of idiots copying (or according to wikipedia due to threats to him and his family).

Within weeks of his death the studio had it for sale again. Shows how much they respected him. :|

 

[TrolleyDave]

Well, the most recognizable differences would be the way that they dress, and future of some of his teammates!!
In the book, they wear baggy black/dark clothes (if I recall very well, it has been a long time since I've read it)..
When they get into a fight with Billyboy, he had five more friends and there were only four of them, so it was a fight 6 vs. four, while in the movie, there were four of the both groups..and in the book, girl who was about to be raped by Billyboy and his "gang" wasn't older than 10, in the movie she was much more older..
There are many little details like that..

But I would say that movie fallows book pretty closely, movie is a bit more dark and brutal though..

And you're completely true about that Singing in the rain part Trolley!! It gives me goosebumps every time I see it!!

I've moved this to offtopic area, because we're seriously talking about the movie, I don't want no crappy posts in here

Yeah I noticed the age of the girl that Billy Boys gang had in the book, there's no way Kubrick could have got away with that scene with that young of a girl in it! In the book you keep getting reminded that they're all only 14 and 15, in the film they never really mention his age and none of them look 15 in the film. I don't think I could have stomached it if Kubrick kept it THAT faithful.

That Singing In The Rain bit sends shivers down my spine every time I see it. To me that's proper horror! The scene in the book while it's a lot smarter of a scene isn't half as chilling. One touch I loved though was they told you the name of the book he was writing, and it was A Clockwork Orange. I definitely don't think he would have got away releasing the movie if he'd have kept all the violence at the beginning in it. Another difference I found was in the book not all of the violence is senseless, they are actually little criminals at heart but in the film Alex is always on about how it just makes him happy!

I prefer the film version of the scene with his parole officer type guy. He comes across a little sleazy in the book but in the film he's like a full on creepy paedophile.

I didn't actually try to correct you, but I have the book here, by my side, so I looked

I was interested..
The main point is, they're too young!!

And yeah, I've read Orwell's 1984 (funny thing, Burgess has written something like an "twist-off" if you get some time, try to read it, it's called 1985!!)..
I also read the Animal Farm, and I really like those books!! I can associate todays world with those stories!! And it's freakin' scary how good people predicted the future, and made psychological profile of the human!

Here, this is my "little collection" DVD and the book!! (I've taken the picture two minutes ago)

That cover is awesome! I think I might hunt it down and swap the official UK one for it, it's just the same as the poster. 1984 is another book I've never read, I'll probably pick that one up soon. I've seen the film but I kind of get the feeling the book will be alot deeper.

Animal Farm is one of my favourite books and films (not that mess of a movie released recently though) of all time. I watched the original cartoon not long ago. Such a dark dark tale but with such a strong moral and philosophy. I've always loved that kind of tale. It makes me sound like a proper old fart but they really don't make stories like these anymore. It's all popcorn stuff.

QUOTE(TrolleyDave @ Nov 7 2008, 04:41 AM)

Shame it was banned in the UK for so long, a whole generation of UK film watchers missed out.

It was never banned - kubrik pulled it due to a (well founded) fear of idiots copying (or according to wikipedia due to threats to him and his family).

Within weeks of his death the studio had it for sale again. Shows how much they respected him. :|

So in a roundabout kind of way you could say that Stanly Kubrick banned it's release in UK?

It definitely wouldn't have got released on video though after the Video Nasties saga. There was lot's of stuff way tamer than this that was banned.

It was death threats that made him pull the movie off the market. I asked my folks when I was younger if there was much copycat violence after the movie was released and they said no. Back the people just had to go to football on a weekend and they'd get involved in plenty of violence. Not just that, I know it sounds bad but kids were just alot less psycho 20-30 years ago!

I don't really see it as the type of film that would cause much copycat violence either. In the film it's shown as real cartooney, even like a ballet. There not the kind of scenes that really get your adreneline going, they're more the kind that make you "what a bunch of bleedin nutters!"! Still very scary violence but more because of what it is then how it's shown. Apart from that damned Singing in the Rain scene, that's one of the most intimidating scenes in any movie.

As for the studio releasing it straight after he died, those were his conditions. He basically said that as long as he was alive he ddn't want the film released here. There was a gap of a few months if I remember right. It still had to get cleared by the censors and what not.

 

[quim69]

So in a roundabout kind of way you could say that Stanly Kubrick banned it's release in UK?
You COULD say that, but it wouldn't be correct. ;p Ban implies prohibiting by law, as with the "video-nasties".

It definitely wouldn't have got released on video though after the Video Nasties saga. There was lot's of stuff way tamer than this that was banned.
I'm not sure - ACO is quite a tame movie itself - definitely worse stuff was allowed to stay on sale (but as you say, some tamer stuff was banned).

It also went through the censors without ANY cuts the first time round (Rated X - which at the time was 18 (had previously been 16)).

I asked my folks when I was younger if there was much copycat violence after the movie was released and they said no.
There were a few copycat beatings (and quite local to me two murders, unsurprisingly titled "The Clockwork Orange Murders" by locals).



QUOTEAs for the studio releasing it straight after he died, those were his conditions. He basically said that as long as he was alive he ddn't want the film released here.

He never said any such thing, his wife claimed it was because of death threats on him and his family (which if that was the case why would he want it released when he is dead and is wife is still alive? That would be even worse than releasing it when he was alive as he wouldn't be around to protect her) - he never gave any reason (he never denied the copycat allegations - but then he never confirmed them either).

I think it was just a case of his wife/family and the studios wanting to make as much money as possible. Kubrik was very set in his ways and didn't like to change his mind once it was set. If the people around him found a way around that I'm sure they took it - just look at the mess they keep making of FMJ and the Shining. Changing AR, soundtracks etc.


As for the censors It had already had a X certificate, no changes were made to the movie so it only needed certificate modernisation. The BBFC can have the paperwork to you in less than 5 days for that (especially if you are a big studio - smaller film-makers can wait weeks - the joys of capitalism :/ ).


QUOTE

I know it sounds bad but kids were just alot less psycho 20-30 years ago!

I won't mention Hindley and Brady then... =]

Things are the same now, the media just have a different target:


Mods, Rockers, Punks, Skins, Ravers, Chavs etc (thats just modern (1950s+) times - it was the same even in the past) have all been branded as evil, twisted, sick, bringing down society etc - it's all the same thing, a middle class demonisation of working-class youth. Things aren't any worse now - crime isn't any worse, but the fear of crime certainly is.

Back to the movie, I definitely like the cover above - I had a bootleg t-shirt with that print on when I was younger.

 

[TrolleyDave]

You COULD say that, but it wouldn't be correct. ;p Ban implies prohibiting by law, as with the "video-nasties".

Oh well, I stand corrected then. I always just called it banned because Stanley Kubrick had withdrawn his consent for it to be shown in the UK.

I'm not sure - ACO is quite a tame movie itself - definitely worse stuff was allowed to stay on sale (but as you say, some tamer stuff was banned).

Lot's and lot's of stuff was banned at the time, it was a pretty silly moment in British film history. ACO might have got a release but it would have been very very heavily censored. At the tme it wasn't just the amount shown but the intent behind it and how bad public opinion was, or more how loud Mary Whitehouse made a stink about it. Personally I find Texas Chainsaw Masacre to be far tamer then ACO, yet even TCM was banned - that had a cinema X-cert and a pre-BBFC release. If you can find a copy of the BBCF videos nasty list have a look at it, there was some really ridiculous stuff banned back then. Thankfully the censors are alot less handy with the snip snips know, I think I even saw nunchucks in a movie not long ago!

Look at it this way, the censors back then were so ridiculous even words were banned from titles. TMNT became TMHT and Hollywood Chainsaw Hookers became Hollywood Hookers, it was shameful.

It also went through the censors without ANY cuts the first time round (Rated X - which at the time was 18 (had previously been 16)).

Are we talking about if it had been release in 1985? There was stuff released uncut at the time with an X certificate that was banned during the video nasty bannings. These days there's still movies that had X certificates at the time of release in cinema, they were even release fully uncut pre-cert , but they're heavily cut for DVD release now. Cannibal Holocaust had a fully uncut pe-cert release with a self imposed X-cert but it's so heavily butchered it's not even funny, I could rattle off at least 10 or 15 that I know of. What was not necessarily is.



Posts merged

There were a few copycat beatings (and quite local to me two murders, unsurprisingly titled "The Clockwork Orange Murders" by locals).

My folks were in Manchester at the time and they heard of none. Even after 35+ years of release how many reported cases are there really? Even in a country full of Darwin Award winners like the USA how many are there really? There are a really low amount of reported cases compared the how long it's been out and how many people have actually seen it. I know of no-one personally who's been influenced to do anything by the movie, apart from a fancy dress costume, and I've known some pretty crazy people in the past. Most people are more influenced by a movie like Rocky, hell more people are more influenced by gangsta rap because it's more accessible to the average intelligence and it's made in such a way as to actually affect those particular emotions.

He never said any such thing, his wife claimed it was because of death threats on him and his family (which if that was the case why would he want it released when he is dead and is wife is still alive? That would be even worse than releasing it when he was alive as he wouldn't be around to protect her) - he never gave any reason (he never denied the copycat allegations - but then he never confirmed them either). It was on sale within two weeks too, definitely not months.

There was a documentary released after Kubricks death and one in about 1997 or 98 (I think it was called Forbidden Fruit) where they talked about. I thought they had mentioned in that about death threats and him removing it from release until his death. I'm probably remembering wrong.

QUOTEI think it was just a case of his wife/family and the studios wanting to make as much money as possible. Kubrik was very set in his ways and didn't like to change his mind once it was set. If the people around him found a way around that I'm sure they took it - just look at the mess they keep making of FMJ and the Shining. Changing AR, soundtracks etc.

Studios are greedy, any time they get a chance to sell us a DVD 3 or 4 times they will. I've never really looked into it, I just remember watching the documentaries at the time, which was a quite a while ago.

QUOTE

As for the censors It had already had a X certificate, no changes were made to the movie so it only needed certificate modernisation. The BBFC can have the paperwork to you in less than 5 days for that (especially if you are a big studio - smaller film-makers can wait weeks - the joys of capitalism :/ ).

No, I know for a fact that any film submitted after the video nasties introduction of the BBFC has to be fully re-certified. Fair enough with the amount of WB has they could have it rushed through but it wasn't a matter of weeks after his death that it hit the UK shelves.

Honestlly, there is stuff released today that had fully uncut releases before the video nasties that is heavily censored. Admittedly ACO is tamer in terms of how much it actually dsplays visually, but just because a film had an X cert back then doesn't mean anything today. It's alot better then 10 years ago but it's still nothing like say Holland or the USA, not quite as bad as Germany though.

QUOTE

Things are the same now, the media just have a different target:

Mods, Rockers, Punks, Skins, Ravers, Chavs etc (thats just modern (1950s+) times - it was the same even in the past) have all been branded as evil, twisted, sick, bringing down society etc - it's all the same thing, a middle class demonisation of working-class youth. Things aren't any worse now - crime isn't any worse, but the fear of crime certainly is.

In the UK at least things are alot different now then were in the 80s/90s. There was lots of scrapping and large scale fighting admitedly, mods, rockers, football, etc. but it was very different. There were no kids riding around on mountain bikes shooting other kids in the streets just to prove "they is gangsta". It's not the scale of violence that's changed, it's the type of violence. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that there was never any gang crime or violence in Britain. It has definitely become worse,more violent and different because of the weapons involved.

Guns are esier to get in the UK now then they ever were, trust me on this one. I don't really know the right words to put this one across but I hope this makes sense - it;s like anyone involved in violence or any kind of organized violence, the current generation wants to prove that it's more capable and violent then the previous generation so they go that little bit more over the top cos they want to be the next "local legend" With guns being easy enough to get that the average idiot fucking "little gangsta" in the street then that's what they used.

In the 80s it was they stanley knife that was popular amongst the thug in the street, in the 90s things started to change because the underground drug scene became worth a fortune. Guns became more heavily involved but it still wasn't street dealers who were carrying them, it was suppliers. These days any wise crack dealer carries some sort of gun, it's a tool of the trade if you're going to be successful.

If you think violence hasn't got worse then it was since the 70s, 80s or even just the 90s then I think I'll move to where you're at!

I'm back on the same council estate now that I was on when I was growing up and things are alot worse here then they were when I was a teen, that's not the media telling me that it's first hand experiience.

 

[Toni Plutonij]

OK, I'm not going to go into all these censorship talk, because I wasn't actually around when all that was going about!

I can say, from posts you've written, that mostly, I'll agree with both of you, but I have to agree with Trolley on todays violence..

I'm not sure how is it outside of Croatia, but hell, last two years are actually unbelievable..Teenage violence is raising drastically, and last couple of months it has reached the peek! Few kids have been killed, yes killed, out of boredom and out of fun!!
We don't have gangs here, but we have violent bored kids who go out at the weekends just to molest others, to steel, and beat up!!
Today was a benefit concert on out main square, for the kid that has been killed a month ago, I mean, I remember few years ago, when I first watched this movie, there was a talk with my friends, and I remember saying that this World goes to hell, that there won't take long until people start acting exactly like Alex and his Droogs..and hell it really happened/is happening..

About movies, I must say that I LOVE the Warriors too, and I have watched Cannibal Holocaust (and that's some sick shit)..
But Trolley, I'm not sure if you ever heard of the movie called Caligula..Malcolm McDowell is the main actor, and that is possibly the most disturbing movie I have ever watched!! (it's actually "non"-porn movie)..It contains explicit scenes of sex, but still has well known actors, and isn't actually a porn!!
If you ever get the chance, watch it for the McDowell magnificent acting, and for the most disturbing story ever told

 

[Szyslak]

Well, to repay that information; I know that your taste in movies and TV shows seems to coincide with mine, (we both love Dead Like Me, Firefly, and of course, Clockwork Orange) The latest American TV show you should look for is called "True Blood". (on HBO)
It's easily the best vampire tale I've ever seen.

I'll bet you can find it on your own, but if not, I can point you straight to it, elsewhere.

I'm watching S01E06 right now.

Love this show. Great recommendation for this thread Vulpes.

On a fairly sad note, I was in Best Buy today for something else, and they didn't have any version of A Clockwork Orange. Pathetic. Guess I have to get the two disc edition off Amazon.

 

[Toni Plutonij]

I'm watching S01E06 right now.

Love this show. Great recommendation for this thread Vulpes.

On a fairly sad note, I was in Best Buy today for something else, and they didn't have any version of A Clockwork Orange. Pathetic. Guess I have to get the two disc edition off Amazon.

Be sure to get that one!!

I don't know have you watched the movie before Szyslak, you seem like a guy who would know much about this, and such, movies!!

 

[Szyslak]

I'm watching S01E06 right now.

Love this show. Great recommendation for this thread Vulpes.

On a fairly sad note, I was in Best Buy today for something else, and they didn't have any version of A Clockwork Orange. Pathetic. Guess I have to get the two disc edition off Amazon.

Be sure to get that one!!

I don't know have you watched the movie before Szyslak, you seem like a guy who would know much about this, and such, movies!!

Yeah, I've seen the movie a couple times and it's a great one, but it's probably been 7 or 8 years since I've seen it. I figure I need to check out the remastered version and refresh my memory. It's a movie where I definitely would like to listen to some commentary.

And yes, I do enjoy watching and discussing movies. Almost as much as games.

 

[TrolleyDave]

I can say, from posts you've written, that mostly, I'll agree with both of you, but I have to agree with Trolley on todays violence..

I'm not sure how is it outside of Croatia, but hell, last two years are actually unbelievable..Teenage violence is raising drastically, and last couple of months it has reached the peek! Few kids have been killed, yes killed, out of boredom and out of fun!!

That sucks, I've never really understood doing shit like that. I can understand teenagers/young adults scrapping with each other, been there and done that, but never really understood the whole killing someone cos it's oomething to do.

We don't have gangs here, but we have violent bored kids who go out at the weekends just to molest others, to steel, and beat up!!

There's a pretty bad gang problem in the UK these days. There have always been gangs (it's basically what football hooligans were) but the way they operate has changed completely. Out are people having tear ups and in are kids shooting other kids for being in the wrong parking lots. I know alot of countries have always had this kind of problem but it's relatively new here. Personally I blame crack and smack for alot of what's changed with gangs here in the UK.

Today was a benefit concert on out main square, for the kid that has been killed a month ago, I mean, I remember few years ago, when I first watched this movie, there was a talk with my friends, and I remember saying that this World goes to hell, that there won't take long until people start acting exactly like Alex and his Droogs..and hell it really happened/is happening..

Considering when the book was written I'd say it was a pretty damned good prediction of the future of the UK! It's amazing how much the kids today have turned out like it. Me and my mates used to say the same thing you did, it took a while but it's definitely happened.

QUOTE

About movies, I must say that I LOVE the Warriors too, and I have watched Cannibal Holocaust (and that's some sick shit)..
But Trolley, I'm not sure if you ever heard of the movie called Caligula..Malcolm McDowell is the main actor, and that is possibly the most disturbing movie I have ever watched!! (it's actually "non"-porn movie)..It contains explicit scenes of sex, but still has well known actors, and isn't actually a porn!!
If you ever get the chance, watch it for the McDowell magnificent acting, and for the most disturbing story ever told

Loved the Warriors, one of Walter Hills finest movies. You know that Tony Scott is remaking it don't you? Well butchering it to be exact. It's not started filming or anything yet but just reading about has put me off. It's going to based on Bloods and Crips, set in LA and going to have none of the original characters. It could be good, but I'm seriously doubting it after reading the stuff about it.

I've seen Caligula! Thought it was a great movie. I've watched both versions, the regular and the Penthouse version. The regular version is pretty good because it's just the movie itself. I watched it cos of Malcolm McDowell and Helen Mirren (I totally have the hots for her!) and wasn't expecting anything great but it turned out to be one hell of a ride! The "head-mower" scene has always stuck with me!

Heh, gotta love Cannibal Holocaust. It rises above it's genre, yeah it's still gory as fuck but there's an actual decent movie in there with some really powerful scenes it. The bit where the cannibals are punishing the woman for being "unfaithful" is a pretty well made scene. You're making me get all nostalgiac for the good old days of horror! It's my favourite of all the cannibal movies, then Cannibal and Cannibal Apocolypse (starring the awesome John Saxon), Are you a fan of Argento and Fulci?

Have you ever seen or heard of a movie called Salo:120 days of Sodom? That's the one that's the most twisted movie ever made for me. It's got some pretty depraved stuff in it.