Are all VC not filtered?

Discussion in 'Wii - Console and Game Discussions' started by wolven9, Feb 1, 2013.

Feb 1, 2013

Are all VC not filtered? by wolven9 at 3:49 PM (2,557 Views / 0 Likes) 37 replies

  1. wolven9
    OP

    Member wolven9 GBAtemp Advanced Fan

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    I like the blurry look when im playing older games on a sd tv but when i download any Virtual Console wads they all have scan lines and I dont like the look of them at all. Is there any way to get the filters back into the games?
     


  2. tbgtbg

    Member tbgtbg Shaking the ring ropes up in the sky

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    Play them with composite cables and they should be closer to the look you want. Component cables provide a sharper image, even if you're in 480i, let alone if you go up to 480p. The blurriness you like (and sometimes used by programmers intentionally for some effects) are just side effects of the old crummy interfaces and not filters.
     
  3. SoraK05

    Member SoraK05 GBAtemp Regular

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    When I use any emulators available, save for bSnes/Higan, from the point early emulators were around, they always applied some kind of filter to the sound/video. I was always obliged to stick with the original hardware for the most accurate and original experience.
    Outputting emulators through a TV with even the artificial scanlines, or without, and without any 'filtering' set to the emulator would still look and sound somewhat filtered.
    Wii ports of emulators, PC versions, and just about any emulator has the same filtering..

    When virtual console came out on the Wii, it is so far the only form of emulation that is just about 100% accurate in terms of the visual and audio accuracy of the original hardware.
    It looks and sounds just about how I remember the original hardware being.

    Even comparing the Wii emulator for Mega Drive and its virtual console version will show that the virtual console version looks and sounds just as accurate as the original hardware verses the emulated version, which has a form of filtering for the video/sound.

    Virtual console is great in this regard. It is the most accurate in its audio/visual over any other emulator save for bSnes/higan. I prefer to inject wads than play the same game in an emulator :)
     
  4. the_randomizer

    Member the_randomizer The Temp's official fox whisperer

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    But wads aren't 100% compatible, not all games will work, other will have save issues, etc. On older TVs, VC games look perfect, but if you use component on newer TVs, you're SOL. Composite is a must.
     
  5. SoraK05

    Member SoraK05 GBAtemp Regular

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    I've been using component cables for my Wii and I love it more than the composite cable. To me, it is like the equivalent of having the original console outputting with RGB :)
    I would love a Wii U for the equivalent of this with HDMI :D
    I have a ~4 year old 32" Sony Bravia 1080p HDTV btw..

    But yes, there are incompatibilities with injecting WADs - some Mega Drive WADs I have injected produce some sound errors similar to earlier emulator builds from the past.. the accuracy though of the output is great :)
    Also, N64 is quite unable to work with injecting, but at least the other consoles are generally able to inject ROMs..
     
  6. Lumstar

    Member Lumstar Princess

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    A component CRT is what you want. Nearest potential video to RGB widely sold in the US.
     
  7. the_randomizer

    Member the_randomizer The Temp's official fox whisperer

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    Unfortunately, F-Zero is not filtered on an HDTV (why am I not surprised), but there is hope yet. If you play Snes games on the game pad, they are at long last filtered and I think being 480 resolution helps since it's not being scaled to 720 or 1080. Plus I think it's more fitting on the smaller screen anyway. Emulation-wise, they did a good job writing the emulator, and since the Wii U is more powerful, they may even emulate the Cx4, Super FX and maybe even the S-DD1. Perhaps someday RetroArch will be ported to the Wii U and use the game pad, now that would be awesome. B-)
     
  8. Psionic Roshambo

    Member Psionic Roshambo GBAtemp Advanced Maniac

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    I got F-Zero for 30 cents last night, so awesome!!! I am going to switch the LR and LR Trigger buttons.... but other than that its perfection :)

    On emulation those other chips, if or when we get homebrew on the Wii-U I expect that the Wii-U having some extra cores and more RAM to work with will make emulation much easier and better.

    I myself am looking forward to everything that we have on the Wii only better refined and able to play on that pad :)

    On the main topic of VC filters, Nintendo probably doesn't like filters since it is so hard to get them to look accurate to the old pictures, the ones that do look accurate are from my limited understanding computationally heavy and complex. I think they look fine and on Higan I use curvature (it's probably the best filter in my opinion.)

    If you have your Wii hacked, you can download the emulators and use filters for them. The SNES emulator takes a small hit in performance but 99% of the games are still perfectly playable. NES emulators play everything you throw at them fine filter or no.
     
  9. SoraK05

    Member SoraK05 GBAtemp Regular

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    I have seen that some games are filtered.. :(
     
  10. Fishaman P

    Member Fishaman P Speedrunner

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    The sharpness is from the games being rendered in 720x480 resolution, though the original res is more like 320x240.
    I personally don't like it.

    My solution? Get off my ass on turn on my 64.
     
  11. Jacobeian

    Member Jacobeian GBAtemp Advanced Maniac

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    depending on what tv and cable you are using, you should be able to turn interlaced mode by holding some button on startup (can't remember which one but it is explained on nintendo support website for VC)
    although if you have a crt, non interlaced mode (with scanlines) is way better than blurry interlaced screen in my opinion

    well, that´s simply not true... wii homebrew emulators (at least snes9xgx and genplusgx) look exactly the same as the wii vc emulators when using original unfiltered modes, maybe you just missed the fact that there was video options lol
    i still have my original consoles and a CRT and i barely see any differences with emulators (VC or homebrew), nothing is more filtered,scanlines and pixels are not 100% sharp on the original hw either, even with rgb

    and FYI, scanlines are not simulated or artificial in homebrew emus neither in vcs, it is produced by the wii video hardware, those are real scanlines

    as for sound accuracy, vc emulators are now way 100% accurate and, generally, last versions emulators like snes9x and genplusgx sound closer to the original hardware because much more work was spent studying the sound chips and getting all of the features correctly emulated
    the fact that injecting new roms breaks some sound just show how inaccurate and hackish VC emulation is

    all in one, thinking the vc is more accurate just because it´s "official" emulators is very naive actually
     
  12. SoraK05

    Member SoraK05 GBAtemp Regular

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    Some time after homebrew came out and there were emulator ports, I compared Sonic the Hedgehog with a PC emulator, genplusGX and the Virtual Console version.. the VC one looked more 'accurate' over the others.
    I would always tell that when using a PC emulator that it was not as accurate as I remember, even after connecting it to a TV and using no filters (and even scanlines). It was the same for genplusGX, but I could tell that Sonic the Hedgehog (mega drive) looked how I remember on VC.

    I made a video but it's best done in front of a TV for comparison..

    I'm sure as VC is official that it is privy to documentation perhaps not within homebrew emulators.. It is partly why N64 virtual console runs full speed and such whereas homebrew N64 emulators do not achieve this 'as well'..
    If I'm not mistaken, the GameCube N64 emulator does not perform as well as the GameCube Ocarina of Time version on the collector's edition discs for the same reason.

    (look at about 5:30 for OOT with an early build of Cube64).

    VC is definitely somewhat hacky though in regards to sound issues with some injected ROMs..
     
  13. Jacobeian

    Member Jacobeian GBAtemp Advanced Maniac

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    it depends on emulator then


    here is sonic the hedgehog on virtual console
    http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=i_m0aNxgiSs

    and here is it on a real genesis
    http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=M_riCreqLZY

    the vc version definitively does not sound 100% accurate regarding frequencies (it is more high pitched it seems), especially listen to the spinning sign at the end of the level (0:35)

    now, when trying this game in genesis plus gx, it sounds exactly the same as with real hardware

    as for video outputs, most homebrew emulators (not retroarch though ) have settings that let you disable filtering and, as much as i know about wii dev, vc emu are not doing anything special or different than homebrew ones regarding video output, the hardware and the way to set it up is still the same after all
     
  14. the_randomizer

    Member the_randomizer The Temp's official fox whisperer

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    Well, on the plus side, at least the VC doesn't sound nearly as bad as the PS3's Sega Genesis Collection. They really butchered the sound effects, not to mention you can't even enable Super Sonic via cheats (only certain games have certain buttons mapped as A, B, C, etc, but not all of them are, which is weird). Genesis Plus GX sounds as good as Kega Fusion, which has been reported to sound 100% accurate. The two emulators sound exactly the same to real hardware, but the VC...yeah, it's way off.

    As for sharpness or lack of filtering, HDTVs simply were never intended to upscale games in 240 resolution, the only true way to get virtual console games to look right is either using composite cables on the HDTV (which is pretty stupid), or get a hold of a CRT (good luck finding one in good shape). Other than that, the game pad or RetroArch are your best bet as both have filtering applied.

    As for accuracy, yeah, the Snes emulator Nintendo wrote does a very good job in the audio/video department (if using a CRT or game pad/remote play, HDTV is a big no-no for unfiltered games), as it sounds and looks like the real deal, which means they definitely rewrote it from scratch. As for ROM inject, it may be possible at one point, I have my reasons for like RetroArch better, but to each his own. A CRT is a must for older games if you want it to be as accurate as possible. Unfortunately, not all of us have access to such a TV.
     
  15. SoraK05

    Member SoraK05 GBAtemp Regular

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    I just ran a PC emu of Kega Fusion side by side with my Wii's Virtual Console version of Sonic The Hedgehog (Mega Drive, PAL). The emulator was set to 22050khz for sound and for video, any semblance of a filter was disabled, with only the 'normal' setting checked in the options for video. I had a Mega Drive, which was slower than the NTSC Genesis.


    In terms of speed:
    I managed to get the Virtual Console game and Kega Fusion to reset at the same time. With the both going through the logo and title screen at the same time, the speed I'd say is identical.

    In terms of video:
    The first thing I noticed is that the Virtual Console version's colours are slightly darker in general, and sonic is more of a darker blue than in the emulator for example, and same for the 'SEGA' logo at the start. I remember Sonic this way..
    The second thing I noticed, with the emulator in full screen, is that the 'blockiness / pixels' are not as sharp as the virtual console version, in that they are slightly 'filtered' in comparison. This 'filtering' is what I refer to about other emulators.

    In terms of sound:
    The virtual console version does not allow the sound of every individual ring to be heard when collected, which I think it should. Also, the sound of the sign pole is not exactly how I think it should be. Compared to Kega Fusion though in terms of the sound of the sign pole, it sounded more distorted to me in Kega. I'm not too sure about the sound..

    Albeit the Wii's output is more crisp in general, with that aside, I feel the Virtual Console version is more accurate to how I remember the original Mega Drive than Kega Fusion or generally any other emulator I have used, at least in terms of video.

    I do not have my original Mega Drive any more though, but it is like I remember, at least in terms of video and to a degree the sound.. :)
     
  16. the_randomizer

    Member the_randomizer The Temp's official fox whisperer

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    I compared the two videos and the Genesis VC sounded off, Kega Fusion was developed by Steve Snake, a game developer, who reported the emulator to have cycle accurate Yamaha YM2612 emulation.
     
  17. SoraK05

    Member SoraK05 GBAtemp Regular

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    I edited my post about sound.. I'm quite sure that the individual rings should be heard collected, even though it is slower in speed than the Genesis hardware, which in the video shows that all the rings being collected can be heard, and that the sign post sound is different to a Kega Fusion (and less distored).. I'm looking for a video on youtube of a Mega Drive being played with Sonic (not Genesis, which is faster)..

    EDIT

    I found a video of Streets of Rage, another great game on Mega Drive, being played on the real hardware (the same model I used to have). It is the last boss music, where the uploader of the video writes that he finds the sound on emulators is not how it should be.

    I played the last boss sound in the virtual console version through the sound test, and they do sound quite similar.. Without bias, I played it in Kega Fusion as well and it does not sound as good as the virtual console one in terms of closeness.
     
  18. Psionic Roshambo

    Member Psionic Roshambo GBAtemp Advanced Maniac

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    About the whole Sega sound thing, didn't the launch Genesis have better sound hardware than any model released after? (Launch Genesis's had the headphone port and said "High Definition Graphics" on them.)
     
  19. SoraK05

    Member SoraK05 GBAtemp Regular

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    My point is that virtual console in general is more accurate in ways than other emulators.

    About different models having different sound, I have read up on this and it could contribute to the difference in sounds people may be used to when comparing to emulators / virtual console..

    About the sounds of all rings being collected, I know that some sounds would be cut off on the actual Mega Drive for others playing, like a music sound playing over a sound effect, or vice versa..
     
  20. the_randomizer

    Member the_randomizer The Temp's official fox whisperer

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    Be that as it may, Retroarch is preferred since I don't have a CRT but for those who do, VC is preferred.
     

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