The Sandman | Netflix Adaptation

Dark_Phoras

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then it should be written from the start in the vision of representation, not changing existing stories.

I'm not against minorities support and representation, just not forced representation when not needed. This forced representation is starting to hurt the industries more than anything, I see and hear more and more people criticizing and having ENOUGH of seeing gay people in movies and ads, and in the street's ads, and everywhere. it's forced representation, not representation.
really, it's starting to hurt movies and series. people (around me) have enough.

I disagree with you, I think it's paramount that representation of minorities is inserted into existing stories. I don't understand the concept of "forced representation", because I read it as intentional representation, and all representation and all art production are intentional. It's not being forced, it's being given.

@duwen please, age is just a number. I've seen countless movies from all USA/Europe/Asia from all ages, there was a clear predominance of white people and man/woman couples, most representations of minorities were marginal and prejudiced. If it weren't so, society would be past this constant consternation about different ethnicities and homossexuals being represented in the pictures. You can point movies? How nice, from that perspective I can also point that the main character of this show is a white male and that somehow nullifies all the rest. But do tell, which specific representations of minorities ruined this series in particular?
 

duwen

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I disagree with you, I think it's paramount that representation of minorities is inserted into existing stories. I don't understand the concept of "forced representation", because I read it as intentional representation, and all representation and all art production are intentional. It's not being forced, it's being given.

Even when it undermines historical or factual accuracy? Or alters the source material without adding any new facet to it's meaning?

@duwen please, age is just a number. I've seen countless movies from all USA/Europe/Asia from all ages, there was a clear predominance of white people and man/woman couples, most representations of minorities were marginal and prejudiced. If it weren't so, society would be past this constant consternation about different ethnicities and homossexuals being represented in the pictures. You can point movies? How nice, from that perspective I can also point that the main character of this show is a white male and that somehow nullifies all the rest. But do tell, which specific representations of minorities ruined this series in particular?

The Endless in the Sandman comics are literally beyond ethnicity, and are almost alien in how devoid of colour their skin is. And as was the case in the comics, they took on the ethnic appearance of those that viewed them (as seen in the scene with Nada in hell). Yes, they're white, but white in such a way that makes them as ethnically different to you or I as if they were green.

And to answer your question, there is no specific representation of minorities that ruin this series... it's an accumulation of many changes to the source material that ruin this series.

As I said in my first post on this thread, "Most of the 'woke' changes didn't bother me" - even when I initially thought that they might. I was fine with the ethnic changes of Cain and Abel, the Walker family, the Hecate, and even Death. And the LGBTQ+ casting of Mason Alexander Park as Desire is perfect.
If I have to point the finger at some of the 'woke' choices that are part of the accumulation that makes this adaptation bad, it's the previously mentioned "write a male, cast a female" gender swaps that were nonsensical and pointless, and the historically inaccurate representations of minorities in the scenes that are set a century or more ago. Add to that, the only straight white couples depicted in the show are depicted as either abusive or out and out evil, compared to the queer or mixed race (or both) relationships only being depicted positively.
...but those things alone aren't why it's not a good adaptation. Most of it stems from the adapted structure undermining the story beats, and it's self-distancing from all the ties the source cleverly weaves with a wealth of DC comic history.

I'd advise anyone that thinks they may like it to go and read the comics first, as watching the show first definitely reduces the impact of how the initial pair of story arcs unfold.
 

Dark_Phoras

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Now that I've finished watching the series, I can share my opinion. There will be spoilers. I've read about Sandman as this great work of fiction, so I was keen on this lauded show, with the general consensus about it being a legitimate and faithful adaptation. However, what I found is only an average story typical of comic books, that doesn't try to reach the heights I imagined. This isn't an epic tale with the scope that the introduction promises; the concept of the realms of the dreaming world, the waking world, Hell, and all the other kingdoms ruled by biblical legends and anthropomorphized deifications of common human feelings; wielders of magic hunting demons and monsters.

One could be forgiven for thinking that the books were unfilmable for the large scope of its tale, adventures through wildly imaginative designs and vertiginous events. But what we have in the series is an assortment of small encounters common in comic books, characters with small depth and even smaller development, people and events that are dropped when they start and don't add anything to the overall plot. There's a dissonance in the aesthetic feeling, where dark and elaborate settings are soon replaced by the sunny and mundane. The beautiful interiors and interesting clothes give place to the blandest hotel you can imagine, the blandest diner, where a disproportionate amount of time is spent with secondary generic characters just talking and walking.

The first two or three episodes, that are very good and build-up to a very pleasing tale, end up being mostly contained and I think what comes after shouldn't be the same show. The main character, known as Dream, barely appears from this point forward, and he almost always looks shoehorned in, out of place, functioning as a deus ex machina. Johanna Constantine could have been a great partner in his quest to find the stolen hallowed objects that contain or enhance his magical powers; but she disappears just as soon as she arrives. We lose entire episodes and hours worth with uninteresting stories of unimportant characters that don't add anything to the overall plot.

And herein lies the main issue, which is that there barely is an overall plot. The Sandman is a semi-episodical, disguised procedural, mostly dull and unimaginative. But the first few episodes are very good, with only bits and pieces of magic scattered between what remains. I doubt the comics are any better, because the issues with the show are probably imported from the comic books that inspired.
 
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duwen

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Now that I've finished watching the series, I can share my opinion. There will be spoilers. I've read about Sandman as this great work of fiction, so I was keen on this lauded show, with the general consensus about it being a legitimate and faithful adaptation.
It's being lauded? I've seen nothing but upset for what a poor adaptation it is.

However, what I found is only an average story typical of comic books, that doesn't try to reach the heights I imagined. This isn't an epic tale with the scope that the introduction promises; the concept of the realms of the dreaming world, the waking world, Hell, and all the other kingdoms ruled by biblical legends and anthropomorphized deifications of common human feelings; wielders of magic hunting demons and monsters.
That's the thing - the comics actually ARE exactly that epic tale you describe, created from weaving existing literary, mythical, and religious tales into a fable that surpasses it's medium. There's a very good reason why the comic is so revered.

And herein lies the main issue, which is that there barely is an overall plot. The Sandman is a semi-episodical, disguised procedural, mostly dull and unimaginative. But the first few episodes are very good, with only bits and pieces of magic scattered between what remains. I doubt the comics are any better, because the issues with the show are probably imported from the comic books that inspired.
Visually they nailed it, and certain scenes and episodes definitely had the vibe of the comics (episodes 5 and 6 particularly), so I'd disagree that it's unfilmable. All they needed to do was produce it as closely as possible to how it was originally written/drawn and they'd have had a classic on their hands.
Unfortunately, they felt the need to cram in the first 2 major story lines of the comics (that lasted close to two years when originally published), as well as some story diversions from much later issues and annuals, and rearrange all the key elements to try to make it a coherent season... while simultaneously either downplaying important events or just omitting them entirely (such as the way DC's Golden Age Sandman is cleverly explained), but also kept referrences that only really make sense to those of us that were reading all of DC's Vertigo titles as they were released (like the referrences to the "Family Man" serial killer, who was unable to be at the 'cereal' convention due to being in a Hellblazer story at the time).
 

duwen

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You must be in a bubble, then.
Hardly, I just don't take rotten tomato scores seriously, and certainly don't put any value in them or other "audience rated" metrics. Actual reviews are all over the place, but the majority have it rated average at best and point to it's poorly adapted structure for why it fails to live up to expectations.

https://eu.usatoday.com/story/enter...ew-netflix-show-gorgeous-failure/10213781002/

https://www.indiewire.com/2022/08/the-sandman-review-netflix-neil-gaiman-1234748199/

https://www.vulture.com/article/the-sandman-netflix-series-review.html

https://www.gamespot.com/reviews/netflixs-the-sandman-review-what-dreams-may-come/1900-6417932/

...I could go on...
 

Dark_Phoras

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@duwen you could go on, but you are cherrypicking. In general, the show was well received by critics and audiences, which was what's meant with "lauded show" and I don't see how else that can be interpreted.
 

duwen

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Taking a literally random selection of the first reviews that pop up when entering "sandman reviews" into a search engine is hardly cherry picking... if I'd cherry picked them it would be only negative reviews, or I'd have just searched "sandman negative reviews", which wasn't the case.
Agragate score sites are worth viewing if you only want to know what zoomers and millenials rate... thankfully I don't, because I don't presume to believe that the latest Marvel film is better than anything made by Hitchcock, Kurosawa, Bergman, Kubrick... etc

Whatever, from your own review, and the comments from others here that have seen it, it's pretty obvious that it's not as widely regarded as you were led to believe. Regardless, we shouldn't be arguing about it as our opinions on the show line up for the most part.
 

Dark_Phoras

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Agragate score sites are worth viewing if you only want to know what zoomers and millenials rate...

More prejudice, how expected. So, the series can't be considered well received because the younger generations are represented in the opinions of the critics and public in general and their opinions don't count. Because there's people of all ages in both the critics and the public, it's undeniable.
 

duwen

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All I'm saying is that agragate score sites are skewed to an under 40 year old demographic - that's just the nature of them. Over 40's are far less likely to post review scores on such sites, and that leans towards "almost never" when you get to the over 60's demographic. It's hardly prejudice to point out that the majority of people that are creating the agragate scores on places like RT are largely only represenative of one demographic.
People like myself that were in our late teens when The Sandman comics first came out are statistically far less likely to be adding to agragate scores... if that were to change I imagine you'd see a dramatic drop in the Netflix Sandman's score.
 

Cyan

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I just saw Netflix added an Episode 11 to this show.
It contains two short stories.

The first one is about a cat, dreaming of a different life.
It's an animated, cell shaded rotoscoping effect which gives a real nice living effect.

The second one, Calliope, is a new episode with real actors.
 

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