Persona 4 and the benefits of imperfect representation

In recent years, proper representation for LGBT characters has become an increasingly hot topic amongst gamers. There's a dearth of gay characters in gaming, which has naturally led to a lot of demand for more representation. While that's admirable, I feel the fervor for gay representation can sometimes be reductive to the nuances in sexuality. Case in point: Kanji Tatsumi, a gay character who's been denounced recently by certain parts of the Persona fandom for being noncommittal in his role as a gay representative for the series.

Persona 4 is about helping people deal with their repressed emotions. Each dungeon is a physical manifestation of somebody's psyche, and the boss will be their Shadow, a distorted version of how they view the parts of themselves they can’t accept. Kanji’s dungeon is a men’s bathhouse; his Shadow is a lispy, flirtatious man running around in a towel. The message seems fairly obvious: Kanji is a closeted homosexual. But things aren’t as cut and dry as that.

1_CYiR476zEppPUJ_VGXWqgg.png

I think this is where a lot of people’s issues with Kanji’s story come from. It feels a little like queerbaiting—teasing a queer character early on to get the attention of fans desperate for LGBT representation, only to backpedal later and say “Don’t worry guys, he’s not really gay!” I understand the frustration at that, but I think dismissing Kanji as a bad LGBT character simply because of it does a massive disservice to the story he tells about the complexity of sexuality.

Kanji’s family owns a textile shop, which leads to Kanji developing a knack for knitting and sewing at a young age. He gets mocked for being too girly and becomes isolated from the world, as both sexes mock a man with such feminine interests. Partially to reaffirm his masculinity and partially to solidify the wedge between him and the world that rejected him, Kanji adopts an overly tough and brutish persona, replacing people’s contempt for him with fear. But that insecurity over his lack of masculinity stays embedded, and possibly manifests as his confused sexuality.

maxresdefault.jpg

We first see Kanji’s attraction to men when he meets Naoto Shirogane, a woman who’s presenting as a man at the time. (Whether or not Naoto is another example of queerbaiting is a whole other can of worms I won’t get into.) After discovering she’s a woman, he continues being attracted to her. Of course, the root of his attraction to Naoto is that she’s one of the few people to accept him and make him feel valued or safe. But it leaves the question of his orientation murkier, leading to cries of noncommittal representation being lobbied against the game.

It’s important to note, however, that just because Kanji’s only love interest is female, that doesn’t stop him from being a queer character. Nothing definitive is ever stated about Kanji’s sexuality, and more crucially, Kanji seems just as fervent for answers as his fans. For example, when the prospect of Naoto entering a beauty pageant comes up, putting her in a position where she would dress more traditionally feminine than she does otherwise, Kanji begs her to do so as his ”doubts will finally be cleared."

Accept_Kanji.png

The idea of not understanding your own sexuality may seem alien to some people—whether you’re straight or gay or anywhere in between, you just like what you like, right?—but the complexity and range of feelings present can be hard to navigate as a teenager, especially for those who have had self-doubt instilled in them from isolating experiences as a youth. Your natural instinct is to cling to labels, these safe harbors of identity that define the people around you, who seem so much more secure than you. As helpful as labels are as shorthands for communicating, they're not always the most robust at nailing down one's feelings.

Personally speaking, I consider myself mostly straight, as I’m attracted to women but have always had a slight attraction to men since I hit puberty. As silly as it sounds now, the underwhelming nature of that attraction drove me crazy as a kid, as it left me without a comfortable label and identity. Girls caught my attention everywhere I went, yet I couldn’t help but notice—and appreciate—men with some degree of regularity. I didn’t think I was gay, but those pesky thoughts reminded me I wasn’t totally straight either. My conception of bisexuality at the time was that it was a purely equal, balanced attraction to either sex, so I couldn’t find any sense of identity there either. I would try to force thoughts into my head, to cut out the unwelcome ones and force myself to be either gay or straight. I didn’t care which one; I just wanted to know where I belonged.

persona-4-shadow-kanji.png

This led to panic and rumination over my sexuality. I’d heard stories of men who wouldn’t come out of the closet until middle age, sometimes having a wife and kids, so I worried that I was gay and would waste much of my life in the closet. Maybe I was gay and I was just trying to suppress my feelings after growing up in a household with four older brothers who were constantly hurling gay jokes, usually at me. Or maybe I was straight and the vague attraction to men was implanted in me from internalizing those jokes. Maybe I was straight and was simply so desperate for acceptance and love that I’d be willing to settle for a man. I realize these ideas are ridiculous, but without any grounding sense of identity back then, I was floundering to simply understand who I was. After all, I’d never seen anyone going through what I was going through, so I must have been the only one. It must just be a problem with my screwy head.

I wish there was a more narratively satisfying conclusion to this story, but after a few years of this, more pressing concerns came up and I simply decided that I was happy to call myself straight and live that way, but to keep my mind open if the opportunity to explore those feelings ever arose. I’d be lying if I said I still didn’t have some lingering frustration at the lack of consistency in my sexuality, but I’m still taking things one day at a time.

I can’t help but wonder, however, if seeing a story like Kanji’s would have helped me back then. Some simple reassurance that things aren’t as easy for everyone as they seem sometimes. Something to let me know it’s okay to not understand yourself, as long as you can accept the answers you find in your own time. I realize there's another side to this coin, that there are gay gamers out there who needed to see someone like Kanji fully embrace his homosexuality and be out and proud, and I empathize with how hard it would be to see him heel turn and, conveniently, unknowingly be attracted to a woman the entire time. Regardless, I think the backlash to his story is a bit overblown, and even reductive to the case for LGBT representation. Sure, I'd love to see a fully out Persona character someday, but to pretend that Kanji doesn't represent the LGBT community is to ignore the huge, complex spectrum of sexuality that’s out there.
 

Shenrai

Well-Known Member
Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2019
Messages
419
Trophies
0
Age
29
XP
1,510
Country
United States
Its strange. When I played the game I never focused on this whole aspect of Kanji and just took him for what he was at face value. I never feel the need to question the intricacies of characters and how they are presented at any point. I guess I am weird.
 

Tomato123

Well-Known Member
Member
Joined
Feb 8, 2020
Messages
732
Trophies
1
Location
England
XP
2,504
Country
United Kingdom
Sexual identity is such a grey area for many people, young and old. It took me until I was about to turn 20 2 months to come out as bi publicly. But even the journey to that was long. Up to around 14, I had no real interest in guys. Then a small "spark" of sorts happened and slowly I started to just accept it more until recently when I'm just fully accepting of it. They are likely just trying to show Kanji on a similar sort of journey but he is more confused on what he truly wants.

As for LQBT representation in media, I personally am against how it is done currently. It always feels extremely forced and like the writers are just trying to please people. Not every gay person speaks in a high pitched tone and dances around, which tends to be a trend in media. In fact, I personally know none who are like this. I would love to just see characters that are LQBT which are your average person. That would make them feel less... artifical. (If anyone can give some example of characters like this in media, I actually would love to know.)
 

RichardTheKing

Honestly XC2>XC3...
Member
Joined
Mar 18, 2020
Messages
1,045
Trophies
1
Age
26
XP
3,203
Country
Australia
Naoto Shirogane, a woman who’s presenting as a man at the time
For context's sake, this is because an obvious girl would be looked down upon and dismissed within the police, yet the one thing Naoto wants to do with her life is to become a detective. This clash led her to dress as a boy, and hate that she isn't one in fact.
 

VartioArtel

Well-Known Member
Member
Joined
Oct 3, 2012
Messages
442
Trophies
1
XP
2,751
Country
United States
(Advance warning: I took this post through moderation before posting it to make sure it's alright. It does not break rules, but I realize some people WILL be emotionally hurt by this. I am sorry if it does.)

We literally do make our own and people get all “Why does everything have to be gay?!” Or “forced diversity.”
Honestly, I am happy when I see representation in media. There’s such an overwhelmingly low amount of LGBT+ that it’s just nice to see it every so often outside of an LGBT+ centric media.
As for Persona 4, I am on the fence. On hand, I would have been happy if they concluded the story with him being bisexual. On the other hand, leaving it up in the air is a good reminder that sexuality and gender can be confusing. I’ve honestly struggled a lot with my identity and I’ve kind of shifted around a lot as a result. So it’s actually pretty accurate for them to leave his situation unresolved, because sometimes it just be like that.

I may only be speaking for myself, but I've never had an issue with tastefully written LGBTQs. The problem is that, and I mean this to no offense, that the 'representation' crowd often expect unreasonable representation volume to my knowledge. And often the very contradictory approaches to 'representation' of a minority of any sort.

-----

Case in point: Using my favorite series, the "Legend of Heroes: Trails[...]" series, we got:

Olivier - a bisexual who leans hetero, although it might just be he enjoys using his openness to tease his male friends.
Michel - now I may describe this wrong as I'm not too good with the spectrum of LGBTQ+, but he is a muscular man who identifies somewhat feminine ('maternal' instincts is a term he seems to use according to the Geofront translation).
Angelica - Blatantly Homosexual.

I personally love all three characters in a character fashion. They're all interesting and well written. They all live in different nations in the world, too. They don't come off as there for the sake of representation.

------

Now let's compare to https://turtlepedia.fandom.com/wiki/April_O'Neil_(Rise_of_the_TMNT)

April O'Neil of one of the latest TMNT series. If they made an entirely new African American character, I'd be fine. But they took an Established white character, and made her African America.

This was praised for it's "inclusivity". But I view it in a different light: why would we care about "whitewashing" but not about "blackwashing"? How about any other 'washing' that exists out there? This is wherein the representation gets 'unreasonable' to me. It becomes less about 'representation' and more about 'negation' to push for 'inclusivity'.

-----

This is where we aren't being 'inclusive', but rather attempting a full blown 'takeover'. Inclusivity is about all cultures, all sexualities, all skin colors, etc, being treated fairly.

This loops back to this whole thing: they're right that there's 'forced diversity' simply to be inclusive recently. Likewise, it's resulting to an actual presence of people convincing their children, or their friends, that they're LGBTQ+. People mix up 'fair' with 'being equally represented in media' for example. But that isn't how it works.

There's people out there convincing people that an LGBTQ+ has to be involved in every piece of media, because 'there doesn't need to be heterosexuals either'. But the stark reality is that LGBTQ+ as of 2017 gallup poles represented not even 5% of Americans. That's a rather low number, and in a local community, considering how people tend to gather and interact, it's likely that you'd not actually run into anyone outside of school or work who's LGBTQ+ or interact with them in a capacity you'd realize they're LGBTQ+.

But when you show a large # of LGBTQ+s in one area within say modern Earth, and make a focus on them, it does come off as 'forced inclusivity'. Because unless there's some geo-psychological or genetic reasoning for it happening (similar to, for example, Geo-religious habits of Indians being Hindus), there'd be unlikely to be a large foundation for it.

-----

Of course, I realize this WILL step on some toes. Some will want to believe that because they exist, they should be included. But I flip that script: do you need a Chinese man like Jackie chan in a Wild-Western Texan movie unless it's meant to be a sort of comedy about a Chinese man out of his depth? But reality and truth true 'inclusivity' 'fairness' does not care about one's desires, but about honest statistics, as humans often argue over about subjective values to begin with.

I'm all for LGBTQ+ and African Americans and Asian Americans and Middle Eastern Americans so on and so forth getting their fair share. But it's just that: Fair. Some will argue this as me being a 'fragile white man'. I disagree. they're welcome to your presence as much as I am to mine. I think the reality stands more that, being a minority, they all dread the idea of not being shown in equal volume to the White people because they think that is 'inclusivity'.

And as a minority white man in a part of a section of a state that's predominantly NOT White (that's as far as anyone here will learn about me), who has been treated in a racist fashion in his life for being white, and not understanding the local language because it isn't predominantly English, being raised in a predominantly female household, I understand a LITTLE more than most here amongst the White-CIS Male audiance. But that isn't inclusivity, that's a cultural warfare. Earn your places by merit, not by your sexuality or your skin color.
 
Last edited by VartioArtel, , Reason: Changed some 'you' to 'they' to emphasize not speaking specifically to Lilith

RichardTheKing

Honestly XC2>XC3...
Member
Joined
Mar 18, 2020
Messages
1,045
Trophies
1
Age
26
XP
3,203
Country
Australia
Also, let's recall that Persona 4 was first released in 2008 - back before the 2010s, when "inclusivity" became a major political point. Including someone like Kanji, who doesn't understand his own orientation, was likely far more novel than it would've been a decade later, and there wouldn't have been the same drive for "inclusivity" as there has been for last several years.
 

Tomato123

Well-Known Member
Member
Joined
Feb 8, 2020
Messages
732
Trophies
1
Location
England
XP
2,504
Country
United Kingdom
(Advance warning: I took this post through moderation before posting it to make sure it's alright. It does not break rules, but I realize some people WILL be emotionally hurt by this. I am sorry if it does.)



I may only be speaking for myself, but I've never had an issue with tastefully written LGBTQs. The problem is that, and I mean this to no offense, that the 'representation' crowd often expect unreasonable representation volume to my knowledge. And often the very contradictory approaches to 'representation' of a minority of any sort.

-----

Case in point: Using my favorite series, the "Legend of Heroes: Trails[...]" series, we got:

Olivier - a bisexual who leans hetero, although it might just be he enjoys using his openness to tease his male friends.
Michel - now I may describe this wrong as I'm not too good with the spectrum of LGBTQ+, but he is a muscular man who identifies somewhat feminine ('maternal' instincts is a term he seems to use according to the Geofront translation).
Angelica - Blatantly Homosexual.

I personally love all three characters in a character fashion. They're all interesting and well written. They all live in different nations in the world, too. They don't come off as there for the sake of representation.

------

Now let's compare to https://turtlepedia.fandom.com/wiki/April_O'Neil_(Rise_of_the_TMNT)

April O'Neil of one of the latest TMNT series. If they made an entirely new African American character, I'd be fine. But they took an Established white character, and made her African America.

This was praised for it's "inclusivity". But I view it in a different light: why would we care about "whitewashing" but not about "blackwashing"? How about any other 'washing' that exists out there? This is wherein the representation gets 'unreasonable' to me. It becomes less about 'representation' and more about 'negation' to push for 'inclusivity'.

-----

This is where we aren't being 'inclusive', but rather attempting a full blown 'takeover'. Inclusivity is about all cultures, all sexualities, all skin colors, etc, being treated fairly.

This loops back to this whole thing: they're right that there's 'forced diversity' simply to be inclusive recently. Likewise, it's resulting to an actual presence of people convincing their children, or their friends, that they're LGBTQ+. People mix up 'fair' with 'being equally represented in media' for example. But that isn't how it works.

There's people out there convincing people that an LGBTQ+ has to be involved in every piece of media, because 'there doesn't need to be heterosexuals either'. But the stark reality is that LGBTQ+ as of 2017 gallup poles represented not even 5% of Americans. That's a rather low number, and in a local community, considering how people tend to gather and interact, it's likely that you'd not actually run into anyone outside of school or work who's LGBTQ+ or interact with them in a capacity you'd realize they're LGBTQ+.

But when you show a large # of LGBTQ+s in one area within say modern Earth, and make a focus on them, it does come off as 'forced inclusivity'. Because unless there's some geo-psychological or genetic reasoning for it happening (similar to, for example, Geo-religious habits of Indians being Hindus), there'd be unlikely to be a large foundation for it.

-----

Of course, I realize this WILL step on some toes. Some will want to believe that because they exist, they should be included. But I flip that script: do you need a Chinese man like Jackie chan in a Wild-Western Texan movie unless it's meant to be a sort of comedy about a Chinese man out of his depth? But reality and truth true 'inclusivity' 'fairness' does not care about one's desires, but about honest statistics, as humans often argue over about subjective values to begin with.

I'm all for LGBTQ+ and African Americans and Asian Americans and Middle Eastern Americans so on and so forth getting their fair share. But it's just that: Fair. Some will argue this as me being a 'fragile white man'. I disagree. they're welcome to your presence as much as I am to mine. I think the reality stands more that, being a minority, they all dread the idea of not being shown in equal volume to the White people because they think that is 'inclusivity'.

And as a minority white man in a part of a section of a state that's predominantly NOT White (that's as far as anyone here will learn about me), who has been treated in a racist fashion in his life for being white, and not understanding the local language because it isn't predominantly English, being raised in a predominantly female household, I understand a LITTLE more than most here amongst the White-CIS Male audiance. But that isn't inclusivity, that's a cultural warfare. Earn your places by merit, not by your sexuality or your skin color.
I totally agree with your points. Also like how you are pointing out that adding more and more diverse characters into something will ultimately make it less accurate to reality and in turn not be a fair representation. Always feels very forced when everything has to have characters from every walk of life. I kind of feel like forcing things on people is what makes people against LGBT and similar things. If we want it to be the norm, then let it be the norm and don't parade it around in people's faces.
 

SG854

Hail Mary
Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2017
Messages
5,215
Trophies
1
Location
N/A
XP
8,104
Country
Congo, Republic of the
So reject modernity, return to nude Greco-Roman wrestling?


Ridiculous. This is simply the first time in a long time when it's been acceptable to come out as gay or trans in many places. It'll still get you killed in a lot of others. And of course it helps that the internet offers a degree of anonymity, as some people can't feel accepted in their local communities/families.
I wasn't implying that the movement shouldn't happen. Only its confusing people. When you have 80+ genders. And confusing people that have interests other then the stereotypical boy girl things but aren't gay or trans. It's just all confusing for people.

It's still a minority even if more people are coming out.
 
Last edited by SG854,

Valwinz

Well-Known Member
Member
Joined
Apr 3, 2020
Messages
1,169
Trophies
1
Age
34
XP
2,260
Country
Puerto Rico
I think I get Op point on a 2nd read but they could word it better and there is no big mystery Kanji question was answered
With Naoto at the beauty context

Kanji attraction to Naoto has a Primal part to it no matter if a woman dresses as a man his Subconscious knew. People like to take Kanji Dungeon at face value a lot.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Snintendog

eriol33

Well-Known Member
Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2014
Messages
1,250
Trophies
1
Location
Amsterdam
XP
3,252
Country
Netherlands
Persona 4 and 5 represent Japan's views on LGBTQ issues: ignorance. They stereotype gay people as a joke.

(I am a bisexual myself)

Western games have a better representation of LGBTQ characters, however, representation of bisexual men seem minority. This is why I love Mass Effect so much, because there is something for everyone. Dragon Age Inquisition was okay, kinda disappointed they removed Cullen's bisexuality and he ended as a straight guy. There's a mod to enable the gay romance scene but that's hilariously awkward.
 

Tomato123

Well-Known Member
Member
Joined
Feb 8, 2020
Messages
732
Trophies
1
Location
England
XP
2,504
Country
United Kingdom
Persona 4 and 5 represent Japan's views on LGBTQ issues: ignorance. They stereotype gay people as a joke.
With Persona 5, I assume you are talking about the presumably homosexual men who force Ryuji to do something with them (Been a while since I played so hard to remember exact details). I prefer to view that scene in a more comedic light and enjoy it. Not every person in a game, show, etc has to be accurate to reality otherwise things would be very boring.
 
  • Like
Reactions: RichardTheKing

Snintendog

Well-Known Member
Member
Joined
Feb 18, 2015
Messages
114
Trophies
0
XP
707
Country
United States
TLDR Kanji likes different hobbies and confuses friendship with Sexual attraction and Noato hid her age and gender to get the police to take her skills seriously.....It in the games dialogue right to your face there really isnt much more to it the LGBTQP+ as always wants attention where they shouldn't get it. "Character has depth and isn't a homosexual that thinks only about sex oh no its bigotry against us."
 

Xzi

Time to fly, 621
Member
Joined
Dec 26, 2013
Messages
17,743
Trophies
3
Location
The Lands Between
Website
gbatemp.net
XP
8,539
Country
United States
It's still a minority even if more people are coming out.
Well of course they're a minority, that was never in question. Not like that diminishes them as people or individuals. It's also not just that more people are coming out or are "allowed" to come out, it's that we all have access to that information at our fingertips 24/7. You pay as much or as little attention to others' personal lives as you want, and so you only make it seem for yourself like a person is coming out every millisecond.
 
Last edited by Xzi,

JaNDeRPeiCH

Well-Known Member
Member
Joined
Sep 19, 2019
Messages
248
Trophies
0
Location
Unknown
XP
1,444
Country
Mexico
Now i understand someone of the fellow hard fans of the Megaten Universe said the persona series are the casual jrpg western.Thanks to the op i will delisted persona 4 of my wishlist steam.Dont me wrong i dont delist persona 4 for being antigay lobby. Simple i dont like rpg dungeons with emotions of the characters.
 
Last edited by JaNDeRPeiCH,

SG854

Hail Mary
Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2017
Messages
5,215
Trophies
1
Location
N/A
XP
8,104
Country
Congo, Republic of the
Well of course they're a minority, that was never in question. Not like that diminishes them as people or individuals. It's also not just that more people are coming out or are "allowed" to come out, it's also that we all have access to that information at our fingertips 24/7. You pay as much or as little attention to others' personal lives as you want, and so you only make it seem for yourself like a person is coming out every millisecond.
I don't know about every millisecond. I don't constantly look for people that come out. They just publicly announce it for everyone to know.

I think trans trenders is a thing. It's the next thing to be different. People want to be different and unique. This happens for every generation. And being trans is that right now, imo.

Also people that aren't trans but are confused and think they are, not to be trendy but are just genuinely confused.


There's many possibilities I think is going on


The people that are actually trans usually go through a thorough process to make sure they are trans. But sometimes people that aren't slip through, it happens.
 
Last edited by SG854,
  • Like
Reactions: RichardTheKing

Site & Scene News

Popular threads in this forum

General chit-chat
Help Users
    Veho @ Veho: https://www.keepretro.com/products/miyoo-a30